A Zone Buff for 10 Man Content?

[BloodVengeance]

Why would you need any buffs in 10 man? They're perfectly tuned as they are and are about the same difficulty as the 25 mans. Granted, stuff like Nefarian P2 is a little easier with 25 people but that doesn't warrant a zonewide buff in my opinion.

Actually.. 10 mans are more tuned towards 25mans but 25 mans are incredibly easier, 10 man is so much more challenging. if you watch paragon's videos they have people die in their 25 mans and still defeat the boses, yet if a single person dies in 10 man it 95% means a wipe.

[evan_s]

A zone buff doesn't really make any sense to me. The balance issues between 10 and 25 man are mainly because of fight mechanics that don't scale well between the 2 sizes or the availability of particular utility abilities to deal with boss abilities (eg ae snare, interrupt, etc). With 25 man it's pretty safe to assume that you have every buff/debuff and utility ability available to the raid. With 10 mans this just isn't the case.

[Abandon]

A zone buff doesn't really make any sense to me. The balance issues between 10 and 25 man are mainly because of fight mechanics that don't scale well between the 2 sizes or the availability of particular utility abilities to deal with boss abilities (eg ae snare, interrupt, etc). With 25 man it's pretty safe to assume that you have every buff/debuff and utility ability available to the raid. With 10 mans this just isn't the case.

Indeed, a zone buff wouldn't really be the way to go, but I would like if they at least looked into trying to get more of a sense of balance between the two difficulties.

[Slure]

If zone buffs are put in again it will just show how bad a large portion of raiders are. If you can't do the content without a buff then you shouldn't be doing the content at all, the fights are easy enough as it is, being able to clear bot in under 2 hours doesn't mean you need to make it easier. If anything make it harder. Were getting bored of this bs already!

[Niaccki]

So that everyone can go back to facerolling content and so that everyone can have all purples again? No thanks I think it is perfect the way it is right now. Some of the encounters are already easy. I don't want wrath level stuff again. Improve your skill.

[Notmagnik]

Do they have a gem that gives me 15 more raid members for Chimaeron to chew through?

No but they DO have a gem which increases DPS so you can burn down Chimaeron that much faster. Kill him before he kills you etc etc

[Cope]

10 man is definitely harder in heroic, with the exception of Al'Akir.

A 10% buff or whatever is a terrible idea though. Instead, they could just balance stuff better.

[Abandon]

No but they DO have a gem which increases DPS so you can burn down Chimaeron that much faster. Kill him before he kills you etc etc

Right. Are those gems not available for people in 25man as well?

You may have missed the point of his post, on 25man you have more raid members, which means it takes longer for Chimaeron to walk around killing your entire raid, which means you get more time to DPS and kite him. Saying that we can use gems that the people on 25man are also using doesn't really change that.

[Dethh]

I was recently talking with some friends and they were throwing out the idea of would it be a good idea to give 10 mans a zone buff like 10% or 15% increased stats. When i first herd it I thought it was a terrible idea but after thinking about it for a while it could solve some of blizzs problems where they want to make 10 man and 25 man fights close to the same. What do you think would it be a good idea or what.

Bad idea. If anything make the 25 versions a little harder.

[Weerra]

The idea is idiotically conflicting with stated goals.
10 man and 25 are supposed to be same difficulty. If some fight is really(*) overtuned, they should change the fight, not massnerf all 10man content.

(*)I do not trust anybody making such ideas to detect a really overtuned fight, only fight they do not pass a skillcheck for.

[kenn9530]

if they did introduce a buff i would say it only activate once you have cleared that instance and for say only 10% and the same with hc so you only get a buff after you clear the place but i would want sinestra to stay the same.

the buff system was ok but if you bring better players to the raid things get alot easier when you do the mechanics right and no one failing at anything but im happy for it to stay the way it is with no buffs at all.

[Zheryn]

Well 10 man heroics are clearly way harder than 25 mans but I don't think making a zone buff is a good idea.

[Phaesimvrotos]

Yes they should give a 10% buff.
To the BOSSES.

[fireb0rn]

Just some relevant stats I've picked up from WoL since my guild has thought of moving to 25man and because I was curious. I don't think a flat buff would be the greatest idea but clearly the disparity here is large enough to warrant a change of some sort; whether it be making 25mans more difficult or 10mans easier.

Magmaw
normal 10man success rate - 25.4%
normal 25man success rate - 49.0%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.9%
heroic 25man success rate - 3.2%

Omnotron
normal 10man success rate - 21.0%
normal 25man success rate - 39.1%
heroic 10man success rate - 1.2%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.8%

Chimaeron
normal 10man success rate - 13.4%
normal 25man success rate - 14.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 3.3%
heroic 25man success rate - 6.0%

Atramedes
normal 10man success rate - 15.8%
normal 25man success rate - 22.1%
heroic 10man success rate - 3.7%
heroic 25man success rate - 4.9%

Maloriak
normal 10man success rate - 16.1%
normal 25man success rate - 27.4%
heroic 10man success rate - 3.2%
heroic 25man success rate - 3.9%

Nefarian
normal 10man success rate - 2.6%
normal 25man success rate - 4.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.6%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.0%

Halfus Wyrmbreaker
normal 10man success rate - 23.2%
normal 25man success rate - 40.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 6.0%
heroic 25man success rate - 9.1%

Valiona & Theralion
normal 10man success rate - 22.5%
normal 25man success rate - 35.9%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.3%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.5%

Council
normal 10man success rate - 15.3%
normal 25man success rate - 14.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.9%
heroic 25man success rate - 1.7%

Cho'gall
normal 10man success rate - 9.9%
normal 25man success rate - 21.9%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.0%
heroic 25man success rate - 1.6%

Conclave
normal 10man success rate - 22.4%
normal 25man success rate - 23.8%
heroic 10man success rate - 1.0%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.3%

Al'Akir
normal 10man success rate - 6.6%
normal 25man success rate - 5.9%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.8%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.4%

Average
normal 10man success rate - 16.18%
normal 25man success rate - 24.96% (1.54x higher)
heroic 10man success rate - 1.83%
heroic 25man success rate - 3.53% (1.93x higher)

Feel free to double check the math. I think it's right, but I did this real quick so it may not all be correct.

[Deleted]

Just some relevant stats I've picked up from WoL since my guild has thought of moving to 25man and because I was curious. I don't think a flat buff would be the greatest idea but clearly the disparity here is large enough to warrant a change of some sort; whether it be making 25mans more difficult or 10mans easier.

Magmaw
normal 10man success rate - 25.4%
normal 25man success rate - 49.0%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.9%
heroic 25man success rate - 3.2%

Omnotron
normal 10man success rate - 21.0%
normal 25man success rate - 39.1%
heroic 10man success rate - 1.2%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.8%

Chimaeron
normal 10man success rate - 13.4%
normal 25man success rate - 14.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 3.3%
heroic 25man success rate - 6.0%

Atramedes
normal 10man success rate - 15.8%
normal 25man success rate - 22.1%
heroic 10man success rate - 3.7%
heroic 25man success rate - 4.9%

Maloriak
normal 10man success rate - 16.1%
normal 25man success rate - 27.4%
heroic 10man success rate - 3.2%
heroic 25man success rate - 3.9%

Nefarian
normal 10man success rate - 2.6%
normal 25man success rate - 4.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.6%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.0%

Halfus Wyrmbreaker
normal 10man success rate - 23.2%
normal 25man success rate - 40.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 6.0%
heroic 25man success rate - 9.1%

Valiona & Theralion
normal 10man success rate - 22.5%
normal 25man success rate - 35.9%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.3%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.5%

Council
normal 10man success rate - 15.3%
normal 25man success rate - 14.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.9%
heroic 25man success rate - 1.7%

Cho'gall
normal 10man success rate - 9.9%
normal 25man success rate - 21.9%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.0%
heroic 25man success rate - 1.6%

Conclave
normal 10man success rate - 22.4%
normal 25man success rate - 23.8%
heroic 10man success rate - 1.0%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.3%

Al'Akir
normal 10man success rate - 6.6%
normal 25man success rate - 5.9%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.8%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.4%

Average
normal 10man success rate - 16.18%
normal 25man success rate - 24.96% (1.54x higher)
heroic 10man success rate - 1.83%
heroic 25man success rate - 3.53% (1.93x higher)

Feel free to double check the math. I think it's right, but I did this real quick so it may not all be correct.

We did the BoT 3/4 10 man so Cho'gall could go down on 25 man. We lol'ed though it - this week we did the whole BoT on 25 man. I can tell I see not that much change? But facts are facts, buy did you think this: if one dies in 10man raid you lost ~30% of the healing 50% tanking or ~20% dps - at 25man whole other story. We're mosty going with 3 tanks 8 healers and 14 dps - = 33.33% tanking 7.14% dps 12.5% healing.
25 man "allow more ppl to fail". One of my mates is 10/12 in 10 man and I'm 12/12 in 25 - I don't see that much different.

[Jademist]

Blizzard wants to make 10-man and 25-man encounters close to the same?

Why not remove 10-mans and 25-mans and make them 15-mans instead?

10-mans are 10-mans and 25-mans are 25-mans (Duh).

[Seezer]

Actually.. 10 mans are more tuned towards 25mans but 25 mans are incredibly easier, 10 man is so much more challenging. if you watch paragon's videos they have people die in their 25 mans and still defeat the boses, yet if a single person dies in 10 man it 95% means a wipe.

Wow progress would disagree. This argument has been beat into the ground. While in a ten man, a mechanic may kill 1 person. But in a 25 man, it may kill several. The average raid ilvl is higher in a ten man. You also have less room in a 25 man to stay away from players when needed. You'll see that there is a much larger amount of kills on ten man vs 25's except for a couple of fights on heroic.http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier11_25

[Chucknourishh]

people who soley raided 10m qq when they couldnt get same gear as 25m guilds
now you have same gear, and are expected to play a little better to get it, more qq
wrath and icc truly brought out the worst players

i wouldnt expect a zone buff til we fight deathwing
"...let the chips fall where they may"

[Seezer]

Just some relevant stats I've picked up from WoL since my guild has thought of moving to 25man and because I was curious. I don't think a flat buff would be the greatest idea but clearly the disparity here is large enough to warrant a change of some sort; whether it be making 25mans more difficult or 10mans easier.

Magmaw
normal 10man success rate - 25.4%
normal 25man success rate - 49.0%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.9%
heroic 25man success rate - 3.2%

Omnotron
normal 10man success rate - 21.0%
normal 25man success rate - 39.1%
heroic 10man success rate - 1.2%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.8%

Chimaeron
normal 10man success rate - 13.4%
normal 25man success rate - 14.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 3.3%
heroic 25man success rate - 6.0%

Atramedes
normal 10man success rate - 15.8%
normal 25man success rate - 22.1%
heroic 10man success rate - 3.7%
heroic 25man success rate - 4.9%

Maloriak
normal 10man success rate - 16.1%
normal 25man success rate - 27.4%
heroic 10man success rate - 3.2%
heroic 25man success rate - 3.9%

Nefarian
normal 10man success rate - 2.6%
normal 25man success rate - 4.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.6%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.0%

Halfus Wyrmbreaker
normal 10man success rate - 23.2%
normal 25man success rate - 40.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 6.0%
heroic 25man success rate - 9.1%

Valiona & Theralion
normal 10man success rate - 22.5%
normal 25man success rate - 35.9%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.3%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.5%

Council
normal 10man success rate - 15.3%
normal 25man success rate - 14.6%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.9%
heroic 25man success rate - 1.7%

Cho'gall
normal 10man success rate - 9.9%
normal 25man success rate - 21.9%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.0%
heroic 25man success rate - 1.6%

Conclave
normal 10man success rate - 22.4%
normal 25man success rate - 23.8%
heroic 10man success rate - 1.0%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.3%

Al'Akir
normal 10man success rate - 6.6%
normal 25man success rate - 5.9%
heroic 10man success rate - 0.8%
heroic 25man success rate - 2.4%

Average
normal 10man success rate - 16.18%
normal 25man success rate - 24.96% (1.54x higher)
heroic 10man success rate - 1.83%
heroic 25man success rate - 3.53% (1.93x higher)

Feel free to double check the math. I think it's right, but I did this real quick so it may not all be correct.

http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier11_25 Look at the numbers of kills on each. On normal, there are is a huge amount of kills on 10 vs 25. On heroic, there are 4 fights on 10 that have less kills than 25.

[Kilpi]

No. Never. NEVER EVER again. ICC was the baddest thing ever with the buff. It was fine until the Buff came. That would destroy the game now entirely.

And damn you Blizzard for not giving the option to turn off the buff! No wait...