The WOG poll

[Borigrad]

i picked everything

since it falls under all categories since it was needed but it was over done.

[firehorsereturns]

Change is good imo

[Dieselpower]

I clicked on all of them because you are bad at making polls.

[Ap0calypse]

ever since cata hit and the removal of defense/natural base defense ret palas have no survivabilty, in PVE or PVP. i myself dont do alot of pvp* but i do all my grinding and questing as ret, solo most of the time, and i find myself having to use WOG alot to stay alive and add to the fact that i normally have holy power charges left over in-between mob pulls which i convert to healing myself.
*i did do some 2v2 last week as ret and holy to see which could last the longest and i can confidently say i got face raped in both specs, whilst only managing to pull out a little dps, and not much burst i might add!, so how they can say that it needed a nerf in PVP is beyond me! wot about other dps classes who can also heal themselves! boonkins, ele shammys, priests....
palas have not dominated PVP for a while now probly as far back as mid wrath, but becos there are a few decent players out there they get tarred with the OP QQers brush and Blizz just blindly nerf us, naturally claiming theyve been monitoring x-amount of data etc etc and ofc screwing us in the ass for PVE.
oh well guess ill just assume the position again....
seems after 6 years Blizz still hate palas....

1st off hey fellow Welshy :P

Been playing 5 years now and its always been like this - we get slightly balanced compared to the other melee classes and we get nerfed right afterwards. Only in Wrath did we have the high survivability and dps that the other classes had, if we had the interrupt then I'd say we would have been in the best place we've ever been. Sadly we got it when we got the crappy holy power system.

I play Ret and Spriest in 2v2 and its not the best, but its not the worst either, and we dont exactly play with proper pvp specs, so our ratings not even 1400 atm. The nerfs next patch are completely unwarranted. I havent seen one ret paladin thats over 2k rating in Cataclysm I dont think.

I've resigned myself to stop pvping after next patch. Its not exactly balanced anyways, and is usually an excersise in frustration mostly. I just hope they dont screw over PvE as well, cos then it'll be cancel sub time.

[Twilightdawn]

couldn't prots get lucky and spam word of glory? i think it was needed but thats just imo

[mandrollen81]

Absolutely disappointing.

I enjoyed the survivability and the extra "bubble", especially on progression fights.

Guarded by Light with a 20 sec WOG CD... weak.

We didn't change it because a tank wanted to dps. We changed it because we weren't comfortable with how it felt to tank as Protection.
There's a crucial difference in there somewhere.

- Daxxarri

I was very comfortable. That was ALL protection.
/sigh

[Hecow]

29 people for each of the nerf was good wonder if they are rogues who will now own us in pvp. Lol

[Deleted]

What I'm not comfortable with, is that they mess around with playstyles. They choose what spells we should do for us, and Paladin WoG was a more controllable scenario. You spam WoG with the risk of losing threat, or not hitting hard enough.

This is the worst possible thing they could do, first to come in saying "We give you a new resource, which gives 'skill' to the class, giving you an effective choice between burst dmg, sustained dmg or an instant heal"

And then show up saying "We think you use the holy power to wog too much and we don't like it, so we make sure you don't use it even if ur survival is balanced around it being spammable, problem?"

It's very similar to Priest's "We think you spam shield on people too much."

They should stop meddling with people's playstyles.

[Soulbender]

i didnt see the option "change has no game breaking impact" (aka i don't care much)

i tried a wog build, it is interesting, even to the point of sometimes (magmaw) generate 15% of your healing, BUT.
reverted to standard build, because it is the job of the healers to heal, not mine. I rather already keep wog as an emergency heal (like a HS or LOH), because the MT healer can spare a bit of mana a lot more easily that i can waste 3 HP.

As ret, it's even more a non issue, imo. You should be dps'ing unless shit happens. If it happens all the time, you're doing it wrong [Tm]

[Bloodknight]

Good? Bad? I'm not sure. What I DO know is that with mana being a critical resource, and watching the poor raid healers OOM towards the end of fights, (even using the "don't keep anyone but the tank topped off" model), I like to throw out as much healing as I can. I help conserve the healer's mana, I help conserve my life (haha), and toss out heals during nearly every fight that doesn't require major concentration for interrupts and such.

Ultimately, it comes down to a playstyle, in my opinion. Some tanks prefer "to let healers do thier job, and heal", others like increased personal survivability, and still others like the hyperactive self-appointed job of helping to heal the raid/ fellow tanks/ etc. There's validity in each playstyle as it's the player's *choice*.

I've tanked with paladin since mid-BC, when paladin tanking was aah, questionable at best. Paladin tanking is in a good place and has been since Wrath... in terms of being able to tank anything and everything. The present system feels very... forced to me, however. The single-multi target threat abilities crossing over is wierd (using Holy Wrath in a single-target rotation) to say the least, for both Prot and Ret. Being able to use Holy Power to heal, then cause a minor bubble (as Prot) back-to back is a nice thing. That bubble is not only eradicated (along with a chunk of health) in the next boss (or a pair of mobs) attack anyways, so it's hardly what I'd term "overpowered".

As for the statement about pvp... I do find that grossly offensive from the standpoint that Blizz constanly has said they want all specs to be viable if not perfect, and for Paladin-Prot-PVP, they have just stated there's not enough (players with that style) to give a damn about. That's pretty anathema to thier previous statements. I'd also like to nite that the bubble-effect doesn't last long when a player is wailing on you for massive damage... those Mages sure hit hard, as ever.

This change just seems out of place, in the end. If tanks want to use SotR... they certainly can. If tanks want to help thier healers, they certainly can. There's an inherent cooldown built into the system as-is due to the building of Holy Power. This change seems unnecessary.

[zcks]

Seems like a HUGE ret pvp nerf.

Off-topic: how come that paladin forum has the most moderators compared to other classes? Are we the most flaming / whining class in the game, and additional human resources are required to moderate us?

We have the most moderators because other people like to flame us. they do this because while ret sucks at high end pvp its great for destroying retards who don't know how to pvp & have noresilience.

---------- Post added 2011-03-04 at 09:50 AM ----------

back to the topic.

This will be an extreme nerf to ret survivability & a somewhat needed nerf to prot healing. In all honesty it is a bandaid fix for a underlying problem & will not work out to well.

Ideally what needed to happen for prot was a change to the guarded by the light talent, Instead of buffing how well WOG scaled it should be made to cause WOG to always heal for a set % of maximum health per holy power when used on self then they could have reduced how well it healed others as prot spec.

Ret's problem is more of an issue of RNG, They tried to fix it in 4.0.6 but we still have just as much as ever (far too much) & it still plays a huge role in our personal survivability, ability to emergency off heal & DPS. To fix this issue they would have been much better off changing a few abilities & talents like Exorcism, The Art of war, Divine Purpose, Selfless Healer & Sacred Shield. Something like

1: make Exorcism an instant cast spell with a Cd again.

2: Change the Art of War, no more of this having a 20% chance on melee to proc. Instead have it reduce the CD of exorcism by a set number of seconds whenever we use crusader strike & an additional number of seconds when we use judgment. (holy can have denounce changed so that casting holy shock reduced the Cd on exorcism)

3: Change Divine Purpose, Instead have it cause & exorcism to generate holy power when used. In addition have it cause Inquisition to refund 50% of the holy power consumed (100% at rank 2). After this if holy power generation is deemed too low they can make judgment or hammer of wrath generate holy power.

4: Change the + healing element on selfless healer when WOG is cast on others. Instead have it provide a HOT for 50% of the amount healed by WOG.

5: Make Sacred Shield a bit more like it was in wrath, as is its a passive oh shit ability in a spec/class defined around them. keep the immunity to dispel, remove the + healing element & make it into a short-moderate CD (20-40 seconds depending on how well it scales) damage absorb effect that can only be cast on self, then reduce its duration to 10 seconds. (hell they could even tack on a snares/roots will not hinder your movement speed while active effect via a talent & get rid of the cleanse snare removal on acts of sacrifice)


The major change both specs needed however was a change to Eternal Glory at the bottom of the prot tree. As is depending on your luck with RNG it could either not trigger at all or happen back to back 8+ times. What it needs is an internal Cd similar to early frost from the frost mage tree. After that make it guaranteed to refund all the holy power consumed by WOG but only be allowed to do so once every so often.

[Kraven Moorehead]

Threat isn't an issue with Vengeance, so why not help make the healer's job a bit easier...
Not much easier, a ~14k heal every 9 seconds isn't overpowered at all imo...

Actually in a raid Environment I've my my WoG heal for 40k as prot with a bunch of vengeance. It's an amazing heal to help yourself and your raid

[Deleted]

It's needed from both PvE and PvP perspective. My self-healing as a tank is absolutely ridiculous at the moment, nobody can deny that. Lighten up, they said it's going to be a stronger heal, so it's still useful, just not as spammy.

[Talen]

A poll to see if bliz is listening to player thoughts. Are there pallys that think the cd is good. And how many other classes feel it's good for pvp fix if nothing else. I know there are a lot of WOG talks going on this is just a poll.

Hard to say - the change has some potentially good consequences IF Blizzard take advantage of it. This includes speeding up HP generation, and opening up the toolkit. However, the change also has some major ramifications - and to be honest, is a heavy handed, ill thought out band aid solution that just screams "I can't be bothered to think of anything better". And their publicised reasoning behind the change wasn't all that great either.

Lighten up, they said it's going to be a stronger heal, so it's still useful, just not as spammy.

No...they didn't.

They said they considered a powerful heal used occasionally more interesting than a weak heal used often.

They wanted to nerf WoGs healing potential. They could have changed WoG, or changed GbtL. Blizzard doesn't nerf an ability and then undo the nerf by compensation.

They took the "powerful" heal the class had, and ensured it was used occasionally instead of keeping its regularity of use and making it weaker.

EJL

[Deleted]

The healing in PvP can be quite high at times compensating for much in gear and skill.

In PvE prot pallys are too strong compared to other tanks. More CDs that are unique or equally powerful. Setting the active healing down is needed to close the gap a bit.

Then again, do ask this question in another forum other than paladin where most people will automatically hate any negative change to their class.