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  1. #1

    Need help finding BiS list for holy...

    Hey all. I hope someone can direct me to a post/forum that can give me a BiS list for Holy priest. I see one for Shadow but need one for Holy.

    Any help would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    Would probably look something like this:
    http://chardev.org/?profile=73348

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar View Post
    Would probably look something like this:
    http://chardev.org/?profile=73348
    Far too many pieces with no spirit on them imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    Pretty good site. Though Shard of woe should be at the top of your trinket wishlist.
    Last edited by Cephius; 2011-03-12 at 02:15 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cephius View Post
    Pretty good site. Though Shard of woe should be at the top of your trinket wishlist.
    The calculation for Shard of Woe specifically states an assumed 50% uptime, meaning that you're casting a spell 50% of the time, thus the spirit value given is equivalent to what your mana regen would be. If you're spamming heals, then the total value is closer to 350 which moves it up a few spots. It is a good trinket, but when you swap it in to mana regen equivalence terms it loses some luster.

    EDIT: Before it gets brought up, I'm not going to / will not mess with the ordering of results or numbers computed by my script for generating these lists. What I will do is consider putting different computed values in the fields of the database that it pulls from.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop View Post
    The calculation for Shard of Woe specifically states an assumed 50% uptime, meaning that you're casting a spell 50% of the time, thus the spirit value given is equivalent to what your mana regen would be. If you're spamming heals, then the total value is closer to 350 which moves it up a few spots. It is a good trinket, but when you swap it in to mana regen equivalence terms it loses some luster.
    ehm. shard of woe is by far the best trinket for holy as well as disc priests.

    let's take Corrupted Egg Shell (Heroic) as a good example rated as the 21st best trinket for holy priests and Shard of Woe (Heroic), which is the 29th best trinket for (holy) priests according to your list. the egg shell regens something like 9k mana every 2 min (5700 effect + ~3000 overall mana from additional ticks).

    first of all: i cant compare the 2 trinkets 1:1 because i dont understand your 50% (?) "uptime" thingy. what's 50% uptime or 50% casting? am i casting 50% renews with rapid renewal or greater heals? the trinket is not about casting spells, it's about how many spells you casted at a given time. back to the egg shell example: 9000 mana every 2 minutes is better than shard of woe? that are 22 spells (9000/405 = 22,2) with shard casted in those 2 minutes. that means one finished cast every 5,4 seconds (even without the haste use effect) to make this trinket equal to egg shell.

    for instance: in our chogall heroic kill this id our holy priest finished a spell every 1,54 seconds according to WoL. the trinket would've saved him 405 mana every 1,54 seconds. and now please tell me that 28 trinkets currently in this game are better than shard of woe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop View Post
    EDIT: Before it gets brought up, I'm not going to / will not mess with the ordering of results or numbers computed by my script for generating these lists. What I will do is consider putting different computed values in the fields of the database that it pulls from.
    you should think about this once again ^^
    Last edited by shuny; 2011-03-12 at 07:46 AM.

  7. #7
    That list on HowToPriest.com is pretty gross. It overvalues crit pieces simply because the pieces also have spirit on them. It places too high a value on said spirit, when haste/mastery substitions can be made. It also way undervalues haste. What is this, 12.5% day?

    Yilar, I like your list but I'd still replace that Shard of Woe with Tsunami.

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  8. #8
    I'm going to answer your post a little out of order:

    Quote Originally Posted by shuny View Post
    you should think about this once again ^^
    You misunderstand. I'm not going to take generated results with a common set of variables and arbitrarily change numbers/rankings. Doing so makes the results/outcomes bias and inconsistent. If there's a better way to do something, I'll implement that at the system level and rerun it to get new/updated results.

    Quote Originally Posted by shuny View Post
    ehm. shard of woe is by far the best trinket for holy as well as disc priests.

    let's take Corrupted Egg Shell (Heroic) as a good example rated as the 21st best trinket for holy priests and Shard of Woe (Heroic), which is the 29th best trinket for (holy) priests according to your list. the egg shell regens something like 9k mana every 2 min (5700 effect + ~3000 overall mana from additional ticks).

    first of all: i cant compare the 2 trinkets 1:1 because i dont understand your 50% (?) "uptime" thingy. what's 50% uptime or 50% casting? am i casting 50% renews with rapidal renew or greater heals? the trinket is not about casting spells, it's about how many spells you casted at a given time. back to the egg shell example: 9000 mana every 2 minutes is better than shard of woe? that are 22 spells (9000/405 = 22,2) with shard casted in those 2 minutes. that means one finished cast every 5,4 seconds (even without the haste use effect) to make this trinket equal to egg shell.

    for instance: in our chogall heroic kill this id our holy priest finished a spell every 1,54 seconds according to WoL. the trinket would've saved him 405 mana every 1,54 seconds. and now please tell me that 28 trinkets currently in this game are better than shard of woe.
    I'll admit right now, there's something wrong with the math I did for the mana regen trinkets (I'll take a look at it tomorrow). For the meanwhile, here's some equations to figure out comparing Shard of Woe and Corrupted Egg Shell (Heroic)

    All of the mana regen trinkets and spirit trinkets have to boil down to something common in order to accurately compare/weigh them. For this, the answer can be found in the Mana Regen formula:

    Code:
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * sqrt(INT) * BASE_REGEN[LEVEL]) * 5 = MP5
    This is, however, 100% out of combat regen. For in-combat, you'll have at most 50% regen through talents, for those items that proc spirit. This means that items which give you MP5 directly (or save you from spending mana, such as Shard of Woe), have double the value of spirit.

    Using values from the spreadsheet (INT = 4647) and Wowpedia (BASE_REGEN[85] = 0.003345), the equation turns in to:

    Code:
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * sqrt(4647) * 0.003345) * 5 = MP5
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345) * 5 = MP5
    For Corrupted Egg Shell (Heroic), you gain 5700 mana every 2 minutes, and, 475MP5 for the duration of the shell (30 seconds):

    Code:
    5700 + (475 * 6) = 8550
    (8550 * 5)/120 = 356.25 MP5 average
    
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345) * 5 = 356.25
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345) = 356.25 / 5
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345) =71.25
    SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345 = 71.25 - 0.001
    SPIRIT = (71.25 - 0.001) / (68.1689 * 0.003345)
    SPIRIT = (71.249) / (0.2280)
    SPIRIT = 312.4956
    Average of 312.4956 spirit at any time if 100% regen were occuring, or 624.9912 spirit @ 50% regen. If you factor in the PP scaler for Spirit (0.8247), the PP value of Corrupted Egg Shell (Heroic) is 515.4303 PP -- this definitely looks a lot more correct than where it was before.


    For Shard of Woe, we can use the same formula as above, but we need to figure out how much mana savings we'll be getting over a given time interval as a basis. This is part of the reason why I took "50%" of the total value. For my (non-scientific) baseline, for any 5-second span, you'd have an equivelent 2.5seconds of 'regen' from the mana savings since the savings only occur at the end of a spell cast. If you're casting a spell that takes 2 seconds to cast, your mana savings per second is going to be 1/2 of what they would be if you got a cast off every 1 second.. Lets take something more solid/concrete for the following computation, though. Instead of relying on MP5, we're going to look at how long it takes my priest (without raid buffs, in holy set -- 1424 haste, +14.45%) to cast Prayer of Healing: 2.18 seconds.

    Code:
    5/2.18 = 2.2936 casts per 5 sec
    405*2.2936 = 928.8991 mana savings = MP5
    
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345) * 5 = 928.8991
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345) = 928.8991 / 5
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345) = 185.77982
    SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345 = 185.77982 - 0.001
    SPIRIT = (185.77982 - 0.001) / (68.1689 * 0.003345)
    SPIRIT = (185.77882) / (0.2280)
    SPIRIT = 814.8194
    Same as before, that's how much spirit it would be if you had 100% regen. @50% regen it is 1629.6388 .

    Here comes the "50%" part: this only applies if you're spamming Prayer of Healing non-stop without *any* downtime. Over the course of an entire fight, this is not going to be the case.

    100% PP value = 100% of the encounter spent casting = 1343.9631
    75% PP value = 75% of the encounter spent casting = 1007.9723
    50% PP value = 50% of the encounter spent casting = 671.9815


    Here's another example. Lets use your guild's Priest as an extreme example:

    Code:
    5/1.54 = 3.2468 casts per 5 sec
    405*3.2468 = 1314.9351mana savings = MP5
    
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345) * 5 = 1314.9351
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345) = 1314.9351 / 5
    (0.001 + SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345) = 262.9870
    SPIRIT * 68.1689 * 0.003345 = 262.9870 - 0.001
    SPIRIT = (262.9870 - 0.001) / (68.1689 * 0.003345)
    SPIRIT = (262.9860) / (0.2280)
    SPIRIT = 1153.4474
    @50% regen it is 2306.8949 spirit, or, 1902.4962 PP


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    That list on HowToPriest.com is pretty gross. It overvalues crit pieces simply because the pieces also have spirit on them. It places too high a value on said spirit, when haste/mastery substitions can be made. It also way undervalues haste. What is this, 12.5% day?
    I never said that the list was perfect. It's damn near impossible to find any decent stat weightings for Holy, since they either trend towards haste stacking or spirit stacking. If you look at the spreadsheet I linked to, you'll see where the values came from -- I attempted to incorporate both sets of values in to the weightings. If someone can provide me with an alternate set of weights, or suggest an alternate method of weighing the gear lists (like "only spirit pieces", ala Puddingcup on HTP, or even "only haste pieces") I'm all ears.

  9. #9
    Mechagnome Veiled's Avatar
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    The thing with "BiS lists" is that the item in the #1 slot isn't "always" BiS. It has a higher value mathematically but that may differ from what we're actually looking to use in-game. I personally don't do much theorycrafting but from what I know, there aren't many lists out there nor are there many stat weights from what I've seen.
    Last edited by Veiled; 2011-03-12 at 09:04 AM.

    MoP Guides, Raiding and Pre-Raiding BiS Lists, Theorycrafting, Healing/DPS Help & More!

  10. #10
    Considering the uselessness that is WoWhead persists (hey at least they added reforging?)...
    http://chardev.org/?profile=73619

    That would be what I'd consider a best in slot list. The baseline spirit looks low, but people aren't factoring in that 4pc plays into that, and so does Tsunami, effectively adding 940 spirit onto that, and that's not including Fall of Mortality procs.

    Edit: Ignore the enchants on the rings. I couldn't figure out how to undo them.

    Note: this list is not including potential random drops from the Conclave of Winds. Feverflare could replace Twined Band, and likewise for the belt, potentially, assuming your raid's cooldowns are being put to use properly.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2011-03-12 at 11:02 AM.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Considering the uselessness that is WoWhead persists (hey at least they added reforging?)...
    http://chardev.org/?profile=73619

    That would be what I'd consider a best in slot list. The baseline spirit looks low, but people aren't factoring in that 4pc plays into that, and so does Tsunami, effectively adding 940 spirit onto that, and that's not including Fall of Mortality procs.

    Edit: Ignore the enchants on the rings. I couldn't figure out how to undo them.

    Note: this list is not including potential random drops from the Conclave of Winds. Feverflare could replace Twined Band, and likewise for the belt, potentially, assuming your raid's cooldowns are being put to use properly.

    No way. Not unless all your DPS are in BIS gear to, and you're relying on over gearing content. (which would make it unviable for the next tier of content completely)

    Edit: Btw, it auto picks the ring enchants, and the back enchant because you chose Enchanting and Tailoring at the bottom.
    Last edited by hikamiro; 2011-03-12 at 12:18 PM.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Considering the uselessness that is WoWhead persists (hey at least they added reforging?)...
    http://chardev.org/?profile=73619

    That would be what I'd consider a best in slot list. The baseline spirit looks low, but people aren't factoring in that 4pc plays into that, and so does Tsunami, effectively adding 940 spirit onto that, and that's not including Fall of Mortality procs.

    Edit: Ignore the enchants on the rings. I couldn't figure out how to undo them.

    Note: this list is not including potential random drops from the Conclave of Winds. Feverflare could replace Twined Band, and likewise for the belt, potentially, assuming your raid's cooldowns are being put to use properly.
    Sacrificing spirit for straight up haste/mastery is no go. If you do it to avoid crit then ok, but this reforging away from spirit is no go. Heck my crap geared holy paladin has better combat regen than your BiS geared holy priest eh? Mana regen is still pretty important in most encounters.
    Last edited by Yilar; 2011-03-12 at 02:57 PM.

  13. #13
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    It's been my experience this expansion from this and several other sites that there is no TRUE "best in slot" listing. It mostly depends on what you wish to focus on as you gear your character.

    While I agree that crit is useless, I simply take the two or three crit items that have spirit (of which there are really only that when there are no other spirit equivalents that are reliable, such as TotFW drops) and reforge my crit to haste. It keeps my spirit at a very high total, which is nice (especially with my current setup).

    Essentially, at the end of the day what I would do OP is decide what YOU want your priest to be doing. Do you want to focus on regen exclusively? Stack spirit with intellect trinkets. Do you want to focus on throughput HPS? Stack intellect and secondary stats and take some DPS pieces, and avoid crit at any and all costs.

    Tsunami, by the way, almost never has full uptime. Personally, at the expense of saving money (but at the expense of time investment), I use Tyrande's Favorite Doll with Fall of Mortality.

    Sidenote : It should also be added that a "best in slot list" shouldn't always focus on heroic mode items. While it is true that those really are the "best", the person may not be in a full out hardcore heroic guild, which means his access to many (if not all) of those items will simply be non-existent. What I have always done is made two separate lists, one for normal mode raiding and one for heroic mode. That way, you can see better what you will have full access to and judge/plan accordingly.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    No way. Not unless all your DPS are in BIS gear to, and you're relying on over gearing content. (which would make it unviable for the next tier of content completely)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar
    Sacrificing spirit for straight up haste/mastery is no go. If you do it to avoid crit then ok, but this reforging away from spirit is no go. Heck my crap geared holy paladin has better combat regen than your BiS geared holy priest eh? Mana regen is still pretty important in most encounters.
    Your crap geared Paladin gears to spam Flash of Light more than he needs to? Do you know how much 500 extra spirit really is giving you, at the end of the day, across a 6 1/2 minute encounter? Unless you're the resto shaman/tbc shadowpriest version 2.0, not much. Casting one more flash heal from scratch, if you're lucky, around the 7 minute mark. Your Resto Shaman should be stacking Spirit for you. Got a feral Innervate? Make sure it's being used instead of sitting there. 2 feral innervates over a fight and I've just made up the difference that 500 extra Spirit would've given me.

    Use Heal when you have the chance. I used to say 6%, now I say 4%. If you can make 4% of your total healing of a fight done from Heal, your mana will go a lot farther than when you don't. That's not a lot, that's just saying keep it on your bars.

    Edit: Btw, it auto picks the ring enchants, and the back enchant because you chose Enchanting and Tailoring at the bottom.
    Nah, I clicked the rings and hit enchant with Intellect out of habit, because that's what I do on all my WoWhead profiles. Then I saw them red with the "requires enchanting" and that I could "pick" professions. But unpicking them didn't remove it, simply made them red.

    ---------- Post added 2011-03-12 at 10:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    Sidenote : It should also be added that a "best in slot list" shouldn't always focus on heroic mode items. While it is true that those really are the "best", the person may not be in a full out hardcore heroic guild, which means his access to many (if not all) of those items will simply be non-existent.
    It wouldn't be a Best-in-slot list, at that point. Considering mine has 3 separate pieces from Sinestra, I doubt anyone will ever actually achieve that (until 4.2 when it's no longer BiS), but it doesn't mean it's not Best-in-slot.

    ---------- Post added 2011-03-12 at 11:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop
    For in-combat, you'll have at most 50% regen through talents, for those items that proc spirit.
    You might want to re-do some of your math if that's what you based your numbers on. Holy Priests are at 80%.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2011-03-12 at 07:22 PM.
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  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Your crap geared Paladin gears to spam Flash of Light more than he needs to? Do you know how much 500 extra spirit really is giving you, at the end of the day, across a 6 1/2 minute encounter? Unless you're the resto shaman/tbc shadowpriest version 2.0, not much. Casting one more flash heal from scratch, if you're lucky, around the 7 minute mark. Your Resto Shaman should be stacking Spirit for you. Got a feral Innervate? Make sure it's being used instead of sitting there. 2 feral innervates over a fight and I've just made up the difference that 500 extra Spirit would've given me.

    Use Heal when you have the chance. I used to say 6%, now I say 4%. If you can make 4% of your total healing of a fight done from Heal, your mana will go a lot farther than when you don't. That's not a lot, that's just saying keep it on your bars.
    I don't see what my paladins amount of mana regen has to do with Flash of Light? Divine light is pretty damn expensive till you get a lot intellect, and 2500 mana regen is pretty much just what you get from having spirit on your dungeon/early raid gear, there's no fancy shit included.

    500 spirit gives me about 520 mana regen as holy priest (just pop 4 set and see). Over 6 ½ minute that would amount to around 40k extra mana... 2 feral intervates are NOWHERE near 500 spirit. I think it's like a few tousand at best.

    As disc we can maybe agree that spirit isn't that great, but as holy, you've gotta be smoking pot 24/7 to not see that 80% return on spirit is A LOT!
    Last edited by Yilar; 2011-03-12 at 07:18 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Yilar View Post
    500 spirit gives me about 520 mana regen as holy priest (just pop 4 set and see). Over 6 ½ minute that would amount to around 40k extra mana...
    Why the hell didn't I think to do that?
    /equip Derpcap

    As disc we can maybe agree that spirit isn't that great, but as holy, you've gotta be smoking pot 24/7 to not see that 80% return on spirit is A LOT!
    That 80% return is significant, but it's the same as Discipline in the sense that all it gives is regen. In fact, it says that to achieve the same level of passive regen, we need less Spirit than Discipline. We should have a little more, to accommodate the fact we don't have Enlightenment's sexy bonus (or Rapture) as a "total package" but again your regen sources both internal and external should be helping you hold through the encounter, and until Prayer of Healing's mana cost goes up that's just not going to be a problem.

    There's a reason I love 5-healing, and that's because Triage comes into play, and it teaches you to manage your mana better. It also has less "competition" if you will, so you can pace yourself with more efficient options without as much concern of them getting sniped and wasting your mana/time.

    Again, try it. 4%.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2011-03-12 at 08:43 PM.
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  17. #17
    Are you basing your 'BiS' list purely around spamming heal (and smite for archangel) for the majority of fights, then stepping in for insane throughput for burst aoe healing? Because that might be semi-viable at least in a 25 man scenario.

    As a 10 man healer, i can't possibly see running anything under 2500 base (i also run Jar, and Valor Trink, and 4 set, pushing it higher) being viable if i need to actually be healing constantly and can't rely on my other healers to heal everything while i wait for opportune moments.

  18. #18
    Mine is more from a 25 man setting, using mostly Prayer, Renew, and Heal as fillers, in that order. Leave Mending out, unless it's going to bounce 5 times, don't push Circle unless you can hit 5+ people with it, and it's definitely under the presumption of a mana tide and a feral innervate (each twice) over the fight, as well as a Potion of Concentration. There are Flash Heals being pushed, but they're controlled and Serendipity is always put to use instead of just falling off. I also occasionally bandage people, pop healthstones/Desperate Prayer and click my Lightwell, instead of Binding Heal, etc.

    Mind you, since I started using Archangel, I may want to shift a couple non-spirit pieces into spirit equivalents (and reforge out of the spirit on them), simply because it's mana intensive to be able to use it.

    Edit: Going over my list again, options to do that are rings of random crap or the spirit/crit, and the gross crit neck. Ewww. >.> But hey, if I keep using Archangel, I'll have to keep that in mind.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2011-03-12 at 09:37 PM.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post

    Edit: Going over my list again, options to do that are rings of random crap or the spirit/crit, and the gross crit neck. Ewww. >.> But hey, if I keep using Archangel, I'll have to keep that in mind.
    Eh, I don't think crit is nearly bad enough to go out of my way to completely avoid gear with it on it. I'll happily take a crit/spirit ring thats 372 over a 359 haste/mastery

  20. #20
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Your crap geared Paladin gears to spam Flash of Light more than he needs to? Do you know how much 500 extra spirit really is giving you, at the end of the day, across a 6 1/2 minute encounter? Unless you're the resto shaman/tbc shadowpriest version 2.0, not much. Casting one more flash heal from scratch, if you're lucky, around the 7 minute mark.
    Unless I'm misunderstanding you here this is just flat out wrong.
    Even in my disc spec 500 more spirit would give me an extra flash heal more than once every 90 seconds, certainly nowhere near once every 7 minutes.

    In my holy spec, it would amount to an extra flash heal more often than once every 60 seconds.

    Edit:
    Personally, I'd take the trade of an extra third of my mana bar against 4% haste (~500 haste rating) any day of the week, being on the side of the mana bar.
    I don't believe 4% haste to be significant enough to warrant such a loss.
    Last edited by Lohe; 2011-03-12 at 10:27 PM.

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