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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    In my holy spec, it would amount to an extra flash heal more often than once every 60 seconds.
    You're right. As has already been stated, above. Grats. I don't know why I said that on 500, when I know I did the math on the 120-ish, to validate using the Earthen Ring gloves over blues and getting told "NO USE MORE SPIRIT", which gave me the "one extra flash heal" over a fight. Hence the "/equip derpcap"

    Edit:
    Personally, I'd take the trade of an extra third of my mana bar against 4% haste (~500 haste rating) any day of the week, being on the side of the mana bar.
    I don't believe 4% haste to be significant enough to warrant such a loss.
    Well this is true, that 4% haste seems small when you look at it from that perspective but there are two points to consider. The first: it's not an extra third of your total mana, just a bit extra on the blue bar. That bit isn't so little, but it's not enough to save a fight and/or change a playstyle. Which leads into the second: again, if it's excess it's excess.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2011-03-13 at 04:30 PM.
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  2. #22
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    Being able to cast 6-7 extra PoHs can easily save a fight.
    I'm not sure if you're just arguing semantics here but 500 spirit does indeed grant me an extra third of my total mana bar in those six minutes.
    Last edited by Lohe; 2011-03-13 at 07:26 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    I'm still confused about how you can "sim" stats for a healer like that...
    Quote Originally Posted by Precursor View Post
    "Fall of therzane....." ....um what? if that woman fell , god help us it will be the second cataclysm
    Words that lots of people don't seem to know the definition of:
    "Troll", "Rehash", "Casual", "Dead", "Dying", "Exploit".

  4. #24
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    >bis list
    >1341 spirit baseline
    >girlslaughing.gif

    What the hell were you smoking? What's this about Feral Innervates as well? Just because you want to gear like an idiot, you expect your Feral Druids to stop dpsing, just to drop form and give you an Innervate for ~5k mana? Dropping form also removes the buff they get from their 4pc tier gear, which means they'd have to restack it.

    Keeping a decent balance of mastery/haste, while aiming for spirit on most pieces is the way to go, IMO.

    http://chardev.org/?profile=75125 is what I'll eventually be using. The only non-spirit pieces are the neck, the back and the ring, since the only spirit option for the neck and ring are spirit/crit, which is obviously not optimal. The back is simply because it's higher item level. I don't think you can really warrant using an extra non-spirit piece. Around 2700 spirit is a decent amount to be sitting on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    Tsunami, by the way, almost never has full uptime.
    Yes, it really does. It doesn't drop off of 19 seconds, during a raid. It can proc from Echo of Light.
    Last edited by Tihr; 2011-03-14 at 01:19 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled View Post
    The thing with "BiS lists" is that the item in the #1 slot isn't "always" BiS. It has a higher value mathematically but that may differ from what we're actually looking to use in-game. I personally don't do much theorycrafting but from what I know, there aren't many lists out there nor are there many stat weights from what I've seen.
    This, exactly why these lists and theorycrafts suck (at least for gearing purposes). Everyone plays differently and only the player himself knows if he needs more haste or more spirit (do guys keep dying because of too slow casts or does your mana keep running out).

  6. #26
    I doubt you will ever run into a situation where having +10 Haste as opposed to +10 Spirit caused a raid wipe, instead of a win.

    In that respect, my "personal" BiS list is based on the available items on normal difficulty, since Heroic modes are yet out of my reach. Excluding Heroic items, the options for just about all slots resorts to iLevel 359 items and the ones that are both Priest usable and have Spirit on them, have like 1 to 3 options at most. If you then scratch off the items that have Crit on them (where you can, that is), you are left with even less. Consider set item bonus, seeing as for Holy in any case the 4pc is quite powerful and you have another constraint on available choices. Is it just me, or do we have less choice for individual slots than before?

    Once we get around to do doing Heroic modes, I may start building a list of gear from Heroic encounters and adjust accordingly.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaysha View Post
    I doubt you will ever run into a situation where having +10 Haste as opposed to +10 Spirit caused a raid wipe, instead of a win.
    Yeah, but we're not talking about 10 Spirit here. We're talking about 1000.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Well this is true, that 4% haste seems small when you look at it from that perspective but there are two points to consider. The first: it's not an extra third of your total mana, just a bit extra on the blue bar. That bit isn't so little, but it's not enough to save a fight and/or change a playstyle. Which leads into the second: again, if it's excess it's excess.
    I think there is an excess of posts about start priorities when most priest call everything but crit acceptable. You are not in the raids of people you are talking to and they aren't in yours.

    I'm not in support of spirit, haste, or mastery. There are just fights(or raid comps) where some stats will be better than others and that come's down to an individual's raid experience.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tihr View Post
    Yeah, but we're not talking about 10 Spirit here. We're talking about 1000.
    While I realise that I was exaggerating somewhat on the low side by mentioning 10, you're way over the top there. Highest Spirit on a single piece of gear that I have is only 228 and Haste is at 194. I still fail to see how such a value could make a difference between wiping or winning - only if it's very cutting edge content which balances either way. And even if that would be the case, I consider it unlikely that you're the only one to blame for falling short during the attempt.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaysha View Post
    While I realise that I was exaggerating somewhat on the low side by mentioning 10, you're way over the top there. Highest Spirit on a single piece of gear that I have is only 228 and Haste is at 194. I still fail to see how such a value could make a difference between wiping or winning - only if it's very cutting edge content which balances either way. And even if that would be the case, I consider it unlikely that you're the only one to blame for falling short during the attempt.
    I'm talking about Kelesti's list, which has about 1300 spirit on it.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tihr View Post
    I'm talking about Kelesti's list, which has about 1300 spirit on it.
    1550~ , baseline, considering I hadn't weighted around an Archangel spec.

    1550, plus another 940 from Chakra and Tsunami. Plus Mana Tide, feral Innervate, Fall of Mortality procs, Lightweave, Power Torrent, Arcane Torrent, armor shifting to Inner Will, more than one Shadowfiend, Hymn of Hope, Potion of Concentration.

    If you're not lasting through a fight with that, even without trying to use Archangel, you would be doing one of a few things:

    Gemming something other than Intellect.
    Using Flash Heal/Sanctuary more than you should
    Not using Triage and playing like Wrath
    or mistiming your cooldown usage.

    Your raid may also be using a strategy that's completely wrong, but even 4000 Spirit won't let you carry a raid through that, as self-delsional as we get, sometimes.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    1550, plus another 940 from Chakra and Tsunami. Plus Mana Tide, feral Innervate, Fall of Mortality procs, Lightweave, Power Torrent, Arcane Torrent, armor shifting to Inner Will, more than one Shadowfiend, Hymn of Hope, Potion of Concentration.
    Are you trying to compare 1550 spirit with proper cooldown usage to 2700 spirit w/o proper cooldown usage? lol

    There is zero reason to reforge away from spirit in this tier.... in fact the majority of top guilds holy priests are gearing towards it. I'm not one to advocate dropping intellect for spirit, but really reforging spirit to haste or mastery is completely unnecessary, you'll get more throughput merely by using your throughput spells gained by the extra regen and not having to have 'Heal' be 4% or 6% of your total healing done.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    1550~ , baseline, considering I hadn't weighted around an Archangel spec.

    1550, plus another 940 from Chakra and Tsunami. Plus Mana Tide, feral Innervate, Fall of Mortality procs, Lightweave, Power Torrent, Arcane Torrent, armor shifting to Inner Will, more than one Shadowfiend, Hymn of Hope, Potion of Concentration.

    If you're not lasting through a fight with that, even without trying to use Archangel, you would be doing one of a few things:

    Gemming something other than Intellect.
    Using Flash Heal/Sanctuary more than you should
    Not using Triage and playing like Wrath
    or mistiming your cooldown usage.

    Your raid may also be using a strategy that's completely wrong, but even 4000 Spirit won't let you carry a raid through that, as self-delsional as we get, sometimes.
    Why would any Holy Priest spec into Archangel in the first place? I really don't see the point in it. You have to spend 5 globals, and ~15k mana to get 5% mana back, and have 15% more healing for 20 seconds? You'd be doing more hpm just healing with those globals instead, and using a spec that didn't force you to sacrifice utility.

    Although you're far too stubborn to see it, that amount of spirit is nowhere near enough for heroic modes in this content. Gearing like that is probably fine for most of the normal modes, which I assume is probably what you're doing.

    When would armour shifting to Inner Will ever be viable as Holy in this content? You're not spamming Renew, you occasionally use shields to give people Body and Soul, etc. It's a waste of a global, in 99.9% of cases.

    You say that if you're not lasting a fight with that gear, you'd be gemming something other than Intellect? Why would you go and gem spirit, when you can just gear for it, like any Holy Priest with a brain?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tihr View Post
    Why would any Holy Priest spec into Archangel in the first place? I really don't see the point in it. You have to spend 5 globals, and ~15k mana to get 5% mana back, and have 15% more healing for 20 seconds? You'd be doing more hpm just healing with those globals instead, and using a spec that didn't force you to sacrifice utility.
    The "utility" I gave up was 1% haste, and Blessed Resilience, though the points could have easily come fron Tome of Light for some people. As to why any Priest would spec into it, well despite it being clunky and expensive, it's also the only real healing cooldown we have.

    Yes, using it in rotation is both a mana and a healing output loss. That's why you don't play dumb. Assuming you weren't a theorycrafting dropout of 12.5%, haste can let you squeeze in a smite here and there in low damage environments, while you prep for hard incoming burst. Then you treat Archangel like a trinket, boosting your output by 15% is nothing to scoff at (I mean, that's why you're in a Sanctuary state instead of Serenity, right).

    And yes, it's lower "hpm", and makes you look worse on a meter because you're not sniping those low threat heals. But hey, that's what a guild using Triage can take advantage of, judging spots on potential and skill, rather than recount.

    Although you're far too stubborn to see it, that amount of spirit is nowhere near enough for heroic modes in this content. Gearing like that is probably fine for most of the normal modes, which I assume is probably what you're doing.
    Really? I could've swore people said you couldn't do heroic 5 mans with anything less than 1900 spirit, entry level raids at anything lower than 2500, and you needed 3000+4pc to even try the starter hard modes. At least that's what people here were saying. Fun fact, 2450~ Spirit isn't 1550, but it's enough to pull you through assuning you play your A-Game.

    When would armour shifting to Inner Will ever be viable as Holy in this content? You're not spamming Renew, you occasionally use shields to give people Body and Soul, etc. It's a waste of a global, in 99.9% of cases.
    Spamming and using are two different things. I use Renew a fair bit again since the cost nerf. We also use Mending almost on cooldown, and Circle's a high priority spell now. That 15% mana cost, when used at the right time, can have an impact. Just like gemming your gear properly seems small, but you do it right because it makes the difference.

    You say that if you're not lasting a fight with that gear, you'd be gemming something other than Intellect? Why would you go and gem spirit, when you can just gear for it, like any Holy Priest with a brain?
    I'm not saying gem Spirit? I've said quite the opposite, several times actually.
    Last edited by Kelesti; 2011-03-16 at 03:06 PM.
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