23 Core Problems with Rated Battlegrounds

[Blacksen]

1. Using class ability - they can say whatever your class ability is. Disallow kitties to use travel form, disallow self healing for dks, diswallow xyz.

I'll default to "why is it disabled in arena, but not RBGs?"

2. You feel guilty using an advantage? Why? Because it helps you win? I thought the rated BGs were about being competitive?

Same as above.

3. Advantages of the profession. Thats why you CHOOSE a profession because you like the advantages. Thats why I did Smithing and JC on my DK because of the bonuses not because of how they "sounded".

Having one profession blatantly ahead of the others is imbalanced, and thus creates for non-competitive environments (in which everyone has to have engineering in order to stay competitive).

4. Which AOE slows and exactly why? Please provide support or examples.

Ring of Frost, Hunter Trap, Rogue FoK, Death Knight slow, Druid Mushroom slow, Piercing Howl. All of these abilities make it easy for a good team to ensure that other good teams cannot reach their flag carrier.

5. Smoke bomb. Once again certain classes have certain advantages. That is why we have certain classes. Next people complain about homogenization. Wait they already do that.

Again, you're creating an atmosphere in which you must have a rogue in order to be competitive.

6. Is it that leap of faith concept? I saw that ability and I think it is neat. Personally I think more power to those who thought to use it. Do you lack the ingenuity because the tactic kicked your teams butt?

No, we have priests. If we had no integrity, I'm sure we'd Life Grip our flag carrier up onto our graveyard and just /afk while time runs out. My point is that there are too many instances to exploit with this ability.

7. Don't you automatically rez at your graveyard in most BGs anyway? I know its that way in Alterac, Gulch and AB when people take your insignia. I remeber the same in Wintergrasp so why should another BG be different?

Lighthouse has its flag closer to the graveyard than mine/waterworks. Alliance spawn is also closer to waterworks than the horde spawn.

8. That doesn't coincide with the above. So you want one graveyard in one BG but you dont want to rez by it in another one?

This response makes no sense. Please elaborate.

9. What does that even mean? Points are points. In school if you need a certain score to pass thats it you need a certain score. 2000 vs 1980 ? How is that not fair please explain.

It's not fun to play for 30 minutes only to get 5 rating change.

10. Not losing points below certain point mark. So lets see, several people have a bad night, they are just off. OFF with their points because they aren't leet 100% of the time.

If you're having an off night, you should lose points.

11. Irrelevant. I think time input will make you work better as a team. Some teams need time to iron out the kinks.

This isn't a response.

12. Why? If you want to fight ally and are ally roll horde.

Because if the 10 best RBG teams in the world are all Alliance, how would you ever know which one is best?

13. How about exposing more people rated BGs? You want special gear so you can flex around in it.

Point in this that the reward system sucks. There are 2 cutoffs: 2200 and Gladiator/Hero. If you're not good enough to get glad/hero, there's very little reason to play past 2200. If you're not good enough for 2200, there's very reason to play at all.

14. Once again lack of reasoning. If you want people to see your point make an argument beyond not fair, or "stupid".

I tested out the new Brutal Assault and resilience changes on the PTR. It's overkill. Flag carriers take too much damage.

15. Why not? How is that not fair? What if I forget to put my correct spec in?

Because every respectable rated battleground team in the world has one person that waits for the queue to pop, waits for EVERYONE else to zone in and see what it is, and then swaps specs. If it's a CTF map, he goes tank. If it's Gilneas, he goes DPS.

16. How exactly is that obvious? How having a pet not dissapear when mounted help you in a BG? Ohhh because maybe you DO NOT want your advantage to be lost over other players. LOL

Because it's ridiculous to need to recast Soul Link when I dismount. It's stupid to have to include /dismount lines in a macro. And because the server lags.

17. LOL Oh my god. Why not? Because its not fair? Well then lets have BGS with only DKS or with only hunters. Would that me fair?

We abuse this often, and feel bad for using it.

18. Once again "stupid" argument. Which tie breaker would you like? More healing or damage done? Or perhaps for it to default to your team? Last and first to cap is not a random. Would you like me to look up the definition of random? And wasn't it you that was arguing skill based winning not numbers? If a certain team has more skill to cap last then thee win.

Something better than "last cap." There's no logic in using "the last cap." In fact, there's a lot of logic against it. If we're ahead 2-1 with ~12 minutes left, our lead is completely irrelevant. At the end of the day, the next flag cap wins.

19. Penalize the teams with two nodes. Wow this seams like the tenacity debacle. Personally I think BGs should make you strive to be better not to whine untill you get your way which this thread seems like.

this isn't a response. My point was that Gilneas gameplay isn't fun or dynamic. Whoever wins Waterworks wins the match, no questions, period.

20. Disagree. Once again class advantages and ingenuity. What effort would you like? Certain amount of damage? Some players I have BGied against are close to unhittable.

Again, creates un-fun gameplay in Gilneas.

21. For entry to a BG? You insinuate that the system allows for quicker gain of purples then blues. How does this relate to barrier for entry?

The system requires epics to be competitive. If you've never done any PvP this season, you have no chance of getting Hero or Gladiator at this very moment.

22. Okay and how do we decide winners? Points? Heal? DPS? How do we decide winners without complaints? 25 minutes is too long? I usually waited about 30 minutes to que for a BG and average heroic still did about 20 or so minutes. How is 25 minutes to long for a battleground?

Doesn't respond to the point at all. Streamlining the BG process would go a long way, and Blizzard hasn't made a single step towards that. 80 seconds of prep time is too much.

23. Why do you do rated battlegrounds? I really do not understand with the logic of not enjoying stuff and STILL doing it.

I'm quitting, as have over 40 2500+ teams. It's not fun or competitive - it's all about gimmicks. That was the point of this entire post.

[kortin]

You're basically asking for a larger version of arenas. If you want to mindlessly kill people with no objectives, play arena, or unrated bg's. RBG's are for people who want to work together as a team to accomplish something other than killing enemies.

Edit: Thought I should add there is nothing wrong with mindless killing, just that it's not the point of RBGs.

im gonna have to use the same argument i've used multiple times before.

After a while, objective based pvp becomes dull and boring. It happens to everyone. I know for a fact that you have, at least once, said (or thought) "god, im getting tired of all of these objective matches. I wish I could just run around and kill people. Have no other reason for the bg other than to kill the other team without all of these things you have to do to win" or something similar.

RBGs are supposed to cause your community to mesh a little. To be able to work together. Coming up with tactics on how you are going to get kills/kill more than the other team, I daresay, MUCH more difficult than coming up with tactics to control points.

[Jiraiyah]

Very succinct. I still had fun taking apart his arguments intelligently.

Except you didn't. If you made any decent points, they were lost in what appeared to be you just saying something randomly negative for the sake of it for each point. OP made a few decent points, which I will comment on separately. If you intended to make an intelligent reply, you would have noted that at least once or twice. I'm sorry, but there was nothing constructive about your reply.

[Deleted]

so your point is that if you can't do it in an arena, you shouldn't be able to do it in a rated battle ground ?
question ? a rated battleground, what is it based on, and on what kind of map is it played? is it based on battlegrounds and played on a battleground map, or is it based on arena and played on an arena map? last time i checked a rated battleground was a way for premade battleground groups to go against other premade battleground groups instead of having one premade nuke a random group, and getting better gear than by doing normal random battlegrounds.
why should the same rules then aply in a RBG as in an arena? for instance, mages can use time warp in battlegrounds but not in arena's. acording to what you are saying us mages should lose that ability just because we enter a rated battleground. but that litle damage boost can come in handy in killing the big bosses in WG and IoC.

you make a character because you like his abilities. i made a mage because i like the idea of using magic spells to turn my enemy's in either frozen popsicles, or roasting them like a steak on a BBQ. if paladins have lay on heals let em use it. find tactics to counter that spell, or get a paladin in your team who can use the same ability.

[Beekman]

Any thoughts on a rated BG allowing random battlegroup matching? If it is truly about rating balance, shouldn't equal rated players be able to be randomly assigned and with a rated structure still compete? It currently seems like an excellent option for casual, talented PvP'ers to get together solid, strategy based matches. Not only that, I think it would help identify trends in class imbalances that can't be attributed directly to player skill (i.e. there are no X class healers being included, or Y class DPS because of Z group composition or strategy.) Not having a life grip priest available for a flag cap BG...as pointed out by OP, that's a pretty big disadvantage.

Avoiding a QQ tone, I'd love to be able to have the advantage of a ranking system coupled with a balanced, random group of people. In other words, a way for skilled PvP'ers without a core group of 10 to still succeed and be rewarded with Conquest.

[Crush]

For number 7. Didn't developer actually talk about this and make a blue post?

[BlackwingHecate]

WTB Deathmatch type BG. I have never given pvp in wow the time of day because there is no deathmatch option. For years, I played Team slayer in the Halo series and Warzone in gears of war and I loved it. Adding that would get me to seriously try wow pvp

Isn't that what arena is?

[Crush]

You're basically asking for a larger version of arenas. If you want to mindlessly kill people with no objectives, play arena, or unrated bg's. RBG's are for people who want to work together as a team to accomplish something other than killing enemies.

Edit: Thought I should add there is nothing wrong with mindless killing, just that it's not the point of RBGs.

Yeah or he is asking for old AV back ... god those times we're awesome

[KeirAdish]

well I dunno about you op but personally I think CC is overpowered in RBG as it keeps me from healing so it shouldn't be allowed
I mean, thats what were doing here right? getting rid of things we feel are OP?

I'm a healer, LoH is a HEALING spell meant to SAVE lives, if you don't know how to use CC on people don't cry about it, killing a FC and theres a paladin? FEAR IT!
or have a mage transform it, or anything...

Don't go crying to a forum simply because you and your team don't know what your doing and can't handle opponents that use everything they can get to their advantage.

[Jiraiyah]

Overall, I agree with the gist of what the OP is stating here, but I have issues with a few of them:

1) Lay on Hands shouldn't be allowed - How many flag drops are saved per game by Lay on Hands? (hint: it's more than 3). It's so frustrating to hear "EFC going down. OH WAIT NO ret paladin lay-on-hands el-oh-el jay-kay." This spell alone prevents fun and meaningful games. If you are going to allow it in Rated Battlegrounds, prevent it from being cast on a flag carrier. Why is it "okay" that any other spell generating Forbearance is not allowed on a flag carrier, but Lay on Hands is? Not only that, but Lay on Hands only reinforces the need for a holy paladin.

2) Infernals/Doomguards shouldn't be allowed - Because an AoE 2 second stun that's off DR's with a pretty harsh aura isn't allowable in arena's, and shouldn't be allowed in RBGs. I feel guilty using it.

3) Engineering belt/cloak %@@# shouldn't be allowed - Thankfully, Blizzard disabled rocket boosts. Unfortunately, they missed other items such as the Goblin Rocket Boots. Parachute cloaks have other uses. Specifically, they enable players to effortlessly move from the Alliance base to the river in Twin Peaks. In the end, this profession shouldn't give such large benefits.

5) Smoke Bomb needs retuning - It's too essential to killing a tank. It forces rogues into the "optimal composition" and creates large disparities between groups with rogues and groups without.

6) Flag carriers shouldn't be life gripped - It's too easy to exploit, and there's absolutely no counter (and before someone shouts "Death Grip," Life Grip has a 40 yard range, while Death Grip caps at 30 yards). At first, I liked the idea of Life Grip as a way to move the flag carrier, but at the end of the day, it's used to exploit and kite, and very little else.

These are basically the same issue so I'll list them as a group. I don't have any problem with these being usable in a rated battleground. There are several reasons you can't use them in the arena. You're team size is limited. One kill and you're out. The relative size of the maps. The size and scope of a battle and BG team make the restrictions unnecessary and the more freedom to be creative in your team makeups and strategies, the greater the fun factor.

4) AoE slows need tweaking - Blizzard's recent changes to flag carrier damage have been designed to discourage "camping." Unfortunately, they're addressing the completely wrong area. It's too easy to kite any class that lacks a closer all the way around the map. Best example is Warsong - it's so incredibly easy to camp on the roof purely because of AoE slows. Brutal Assault will do absolutely nothing because a good team can prevent any other good team from ever reaching the flag carrier.

I agree more could possibly be done to prevent camping but I'm not sure there's a solution to what you've mentioned here. If your team is having trouble getting to the EFC because his/her defenders aren't letting them get close enough, then your team needs to stop trying to run past the defenders and start taking them out. That's why they have those choke points in the first place. It's good strategy. People have been overcoming these obstacles for years.

7) Gilneas map and graveyard distances should be reworked - Because the Alliance have an obvious advantage, and because there's at most 2 flag caps per game. Oh, and forcing us to rez at our entrance graveyards will only exacerbate this imbalance.

19) Gilneas needs more dynamic gameplay - Even at 7 seconds, the time to cap will still be too large and too significant. Find a way to penalize teams with 2 nodes, or at least give an offensive team a shot. There's a wealth of ideas, from "no mounting with 2 nodes" and my favorite: "cap-time reduces 1 second per minute in control, down to 3 seconds."

I agree 100% that gilneas needs some tweaking. The crux of the problem I have here is that the winner (anecdotally speaking) seems to be determined by who caps 2 bases first. The map is so small that it's very easy to have a good portion of your defenders switching between the two nodes you own and make its too difficult to make a comeback. Of course, should your team make that comeback, it's equally difficult to lose it agian. Still, I think you hit the nail on the head here for the solution:

20) Damaging AoE's shouldn't interrupt flag captures - It's just too easy to assign a warrior, death knight, or rogue to blanket interrupt the flag with whirlwind, blood boil, and fan of knives. At the end of the day, interrupting a flag capture should require at least a bit of effort. Magma totem is especially bad.

I think this, alone, would make the difference without significantly messing with the competitive balance. Well, that and the ally/horde GY issue.

10) You should lose a significant amount of points for any loss above 1500 - We called this one ages ago. The idea of "not losing points if you're below your MMR" is stupid. It leads to bloated ratings. I'm just over 2300 and still haven't lost points in any of my 28 losses. Once you have a rating that signals "I'm competing for end-of-season rewards," you should be losing points.

11) Ratings should represent skill, not time input - The above two factors essentially create a situation in which time input determines rating, and nothing else. No matter how bad you might be, if you put enough time into Rated Battlegrounds, you will get 2200.

13) Better reward system - Having arenas and RBGs share the same rewards was lazy, and nothing else. It completely devalues the rewards of both systems. But once you hit 2200/2400, there's no reason to keep playing unless you're "going for glad." If you're not good enough to get to 2200, there's very little incentive to play. The best incentive to PvP right now is the free ~4k you get per week by winning 5 arena games and disenchanting the stuff. You can read more about it here.

No disagreement on rating here. When I first heard about rated battlegrounds, I thought it was going to be a place one could create a team and compete to be the best in their battlegroup. Having it just be another grind is part of what's keeping people from taking it seriously enough to form decent, regular groups.

21) Barriers for entry should be lowered - It doesn't make sense to have a reward system in which epics require significantly less time and energy to get than blues. Conquest points are easier to get than Honor points. All that changes is the number of weeks needed.

110% agree. The cataclysm honor grind is way too slow. Needs at least a 30-40% boost.

12) Same faction, still - Because you can't have a truly competitive and meaningful game when it's only Alliance v Horde.

While I completely agree, I think its for continuity sake that they'll never change this. These battlegrounds are designed with alliance vs. horde backstories. I'd find it kind of weird starting off in ally bases, too.

15) Don't let people swap specs with a queue active - Because this was never intended, and shouldn't happen.

I don't understand. Are you concerned people are zoning into BG's, looking at the general list of classes in the battle then changing specs to accommodate? Even if people are, I don't see that there's so much of a problem here that it's breaking the balance of anything.

16) Pets shouldn't disappear when mounted - Obvious.

Amen. My lock should not be getting rezzed with a damn imp either.

23) Blizzard missed the "fun factor" - This is really the heart of the problem. rated battlegrounds just aren't fun. You pour in several hours of work and ultimately end up with no meaningful reward. It's shocking how much I don't enjoy rated battlegrounds. There's nothing "big picture" wrong with it - in fact, it's all the little things. It's as if Blizzard expected to be able to "throw a switch" and have everything work, and it simply doesn't.

I don't see any specific way to up the "fun factor". The Battlegrounds offer their own fun factor and other than those few minor tweaks, I'm not sure there's much else you can do with it. The only way RBGs will be taken seriously enough to be worth forming a team to do is if they fix the bugs, make those tweaks and give people a reason to go in, other than just another, easier route to arena items. A few titles that mean little to anyone outside of an RBG and the promise of a ground mount at the end of the season just aren't enough.

Give RBGs their own currency (bring back marks maybe?) and offer a pvp BIS ring w/ class-specific effect and a good looking cloak or something and you'll find enough interest.

[Lupercal]

10v10 or 15v15 ≠ 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5.....

Im sorry to have to be the one to inform you.

---------- Post added 2011-03-13 at 12:18 AM ----------

Honestly I really agree with the OP on a lot of the points that he brought up but I think it just further alludes to a contradiction in what WoW says and what it does in PvP. Their stated goal for both PvP and PvE over the last 2 expansions, maybe 3 honestly not sure, is "bring the player not the class" but then they implement things exactly like the OP is saying. Rogues are REQUIRED in RGB's plain and simple. They are a HUGE advantage to killing a flag carrier and this concept applies to other moves to but thats the one Ill focus on for this.

The concept of bring the player not the class relies heavily on the belief that for PvP to be competitive the number of variables needs to be as minimal as possible. IE if you have 10 players of equal skill what class combo they have should not influence their win/loss chance AT ALL. Now I know that thinking that this in any way shape or form will ever come true is narrow-minded because 10 tank feral druids will never be equivalent to a planned out and balanced team but the direction that WoW is going is more along the lines of "well each class has their own "unique" spells that make the class different from the others, some of these are a tad more "situationally" OP then others but that is just something that the playerbase will have to figure out." Which in my personal opinion is just plain dumb.

---------- Post added 2011-03-13 at 12:16 AM ----------

well I dunno about you op but personally I think CC is overpowered in RBG as it keeps me from healing so it shouldn't be allowed
I mean, thats what were doing here right? getting rid of things we feel are OP?

I'm a healer, LoH is a HEALING spell meant to SAVE lives, if you don't know how to use CC on people don't cry about it, killing a FC and theres a paladin? FEAR IT!
or have a mage transform it, or anything...

Don't go crying to a forum simply because you and your team don't know what your doing and can't handle opponents that use everything they can get to their advantage.

Do you have any idea how stupid a statement that is?

He stated he is a highranked player and obviously takes the time to develop and adapt strategies based on what he sees other teams do. Now to go to your actual statement......

LoH is not a heal in the same sense that FoL is. It is a high cooldown highly effective bomb heal. The argument is not whether or not that in it self is OP or not it is the fact that no other move that causes forbearance is allowed on an FH, therefore, why should it be allowed? Why make an exception for 1 move that 1 class has that causes that 1 class to be more viable then the other 3 classes that can fill the same role?

As for your statement of "just fear it or sheep it" there are numerous ways to break those CC's and those are not 100% deadset foolproof ways to prevent a LoH....

[Fat Mac]

Personally if I was into PvP I would enjoy the challenge.

I still had fun taking apart his arguments intelligently.

hi, i dont even know what im talking about.... intelligently

[Vook]

Pretty sure you can't lifegrip the flag carrier. Tried it and it said "Invalid Target".

[Deleted]

21) Barriers for entry should be lowered - It doesn't make sense to have a reward system in which epics require significantly less time and energy to get than blues. Conquest points are easier to get than Honor points. All that changes is the number of weeks needed.

this one bothers me a lot.
getting blue pvp legs takes much more effort than getting an epic pvp weapon.
how can this be cool ?
its in no way.

winning 5 arena games for so much conquest points is a joke.
everyone can do this, there is almost no effort in it, and getting full epic pvp set says nothing these days.
and as u said, getting the blue starter gear is a pain.
it's almot not reasonable to go for the blue gear in comparison how easy it is to get the purple.

i also agree with some other points, and sadly there are a lot of bad things in wow at the moment.
pvp and pve.

[Jiraiyah]

this one bothers me a lot.
getting blue pvp legs takes much more effort than getting an epic pvp weapon.
how can this be cool ?
its in no way.

winning 5 arena games for so much conquest points is a joke.
everyone can do this, there is almost no effort in it, and getting full epic pvp set says nothing these days.
and as u said, getting the blue starter gear is a pain.
it's almot not reasonable to go for the blue gear in comparison how easy it is to get the purple.

i also agree with some other points, and sadly there are a lot of bad things in wow at the moment.
pvp and pve.

It's not just the crazy amt of conquest points. Honor needs a boost. I don't have any actual numbers to back this up, but it feels like it takes at least twice as long to farm enough for a piece as it did in wrath (edit: not including ridiculous queue times). I'm doing that honor grind yet again on my newly 85 DK. Especially considering the 45 minute BG waits, it takes some 15-20 runs for a single piece (assuming 70% win rate including 2 dailies). That's 2-3 full day's work for a blue helmet. Vs. 700+ JP, 70 VP and 3 random drops in a single normal and heroic dungeon run.

Luckily for me, I love BGs and my faction tends to dominate TB so I'll stick with it. But I'll bet you I have pvp weapon and two other purples before I'm blowing my excess honor on heirlooms.

[Rennadrel]

You can't remove a racial, Goblin Rocket Boots don't allow you to run away at the same speed nor does it have a lasting duration. No point in even having engineering in PvP because of the people crying about engineer perks because they don't have them with their chose professions.

[kortin]

Honor gain is terrible atm. It needs a boost or something. I lost interest in gearing up my dk for pvp because I had farmed for 2 weeks and only got 1 piece...alright i farmed for 2 weeks off and on. It still took a ridiculous amount of time.

[Rennadrel]

I tested out the new Brutal Assault and resilience changes on the PTR. It's overkill. Flag carriers take too much damage.

Because every respectable rated battleground team in the world has one person that waits for the queue to pop, waits for EVERYONE else to zone in and see what it is, and then swaps specs. If it's a CTF map, he goes tank. If it's Gilneas, he goes DPS.

Because it's ridiculous to need to recast Soul Link when I dismount. It's stupid to have to include /dismount lines in a macro. And because the server lags.

We abuse this often, and feel bad for using it.

Something better than "last cap." There's no logic in using "the last cap." In fact, there's a lot of logic against it. If we're ahead 2-1 with ~12 minutes left, our lead is completely irrelevant. At the end of the day, the next flag cap wins.

this isn't a response. My point was that Gilneas gameplay isn't fun or dynamic. Whoever wins Waterworks wins the match, no questions, period.

Again, creates un-fun gameplay in Gilneas.

The system requires epics to be competitive. If you've never done any PvP this season, you have no chance of getting Hero or Gladiator at this very moment.

Doesn't respond to the point at all. Streamlining the BG process would go a long way, and Blizzard hasn't made a single step towards that. 80 seconds of prep time is too much.

I'm quitting, as have over 40 2500+ teams. It's not fun or competitive - it's all about gimmicks. That was the point of this entire post.

Gilneas is a shitty BG, and like most of the other BG's favours Alliance over Horde in getting to the first capture points.

[Poodles]

Limitations are already the issue with Rated BG's and why they currently suck. It's a cop out from blizz instead of actually doing their job and balancing. I was excited to see rated BG's because I hate arenas (arenas ruined the game and forced idiotic balancing issues because of the small team sizes), but nooo they have to add limitations like arenas.

They say it's because it's "competetive" but so are world firsts and you don't see them saying "lol, sorry you can't use you engineering on that boss, it's OP."

Only competetive PvP was the competition servers where everyone had equal gear.

[Vantheus]

Why not just make all toons the exact same when entering rbg's? everyone transformed into identical class and abilities so no advantage? the reason why not is b/c that would be the 24th stupid idea in this thread....less fail= more fun, try it