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  1. #1
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    A thought to increase Alliance excitement without redoing old zones.

    So we know one of the big discussion points coming out of Blizz's last interview was on revamping old content to show Alliance victories post-MoP.

    A lot of people have floated a full revamp, level 95 daily zones, even doing nothing as solutions. I have another idea, and it won't require any 1-60 changes.

    Bring back Tularyon, and make him an Alliance hero.

    That's right, an Alliance hero. If next expansion is about the Legion, as seems inevitable, bring back the guy famous for fighting demons. And while the Horde is struggling to pull together behind a new Warchief, the Alliance is out going Army of the Light with Turalyon.

    This way the Alliance has a figure that they can really be excited about, and have a real feeling of superiority over the Horde. Even if it's just for one expansion.

    Though one thing Blizz may screw up with it, Turalyon cannot be neutral. Neutral characters do not inspire faction pride, they actually decrease pride.
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  2. #2
    If Turalyon comes back as neutral I'll quit the game. Completely being honest here.
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  3. #3
    A thought to increase Alliance excitement without redoing old zones.
    I don't feel I need any more 'excitement' about the Alliance. As far as i'm concerned, Alliance have been kicking ass this entire expansion, and will do so a lot more next raid tier.

    I don't understand what you mean by that title.

  4. #4
    Turalyon is great and all but the Alliance needs better representation for its other races right now.
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  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Doffer's Avatar
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    I think a lot of blizzards worry comes from a lot of the quest-content still depicting Horde-victory from Cataclysm, with Garrosh as their leader.

  6. #6
    Old God Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    What has the alliance won? 0o

    Can't actually think of anything :S

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Bring back Tularyon, and make him an Alliance hero.
    I can't see it helping. Sure, it'd hurt if he was neutral but keeping him Alliance won't help.

    What will help is a solid focus on and attention to Alliance stories and lore. And unfortunately, Blizzards insistence on not updating or using old zones largely prevents that.

    But even where it isn't prevented, Blizzard has shown a lack of something in engaging with Alliance players and plots

    In the Firelands, for example....we went up against Ragnaros. What had he been doing for the past few centuries? Messing with the Dark Irons. Why were the Dwarves not represented? Why was that storyline not used?

    Fandral. A Night Elf. Rival to Malfurion. Dislikes much of what has happened. Malfurions thoughtlessness and treatment of his own people caused many to join with Ragnaros. And when he first appeared as a Druid of the Flame.....Malfurion is ignored.Why was that Night Elf story not expanded upon? Why was Thrall made the focus of a patch that did not concern him?

    Velen and Genn, and the Draenei and Worgen, aren't even used in the game. They literally have no impact.The High Elfs have more of an impact and more lore and faction development...and they are NPCs. Heck, the Kalu'ak have more of an impact.

    There are a whole host of stories that can take place in Alliance lands, using existing NPCs and wouldn't require any modification of the terrain. But they aren't being told.

    That's why Alliance players are getting fed up. This issue has been growing for a while, since before Cataclysm launched and its taking less and less for Alliance players to lose their cool over this. And the situation shows no sign of getting better.

    The horde will be dealing with the ramifications of the Siege wherever they go. But Alliance victories, Alliance progression, can really only be dealt with in lands the Horde has taken from the Alliance. That will always be seen as 'unfinished business' and Blizzard can't show it.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-04-29 at 09:49 PM.

  8. #8
    Banned The Fiend's Avatar
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    Here is how we increase Alliance excitement without redoing old zones.


    We stop bitching about everything the alliance does and comparing it to the Horde. Instead of whining that the Horde gets development either through conquestion or rebellion. We try and see the Development thats actually happening. I know alot of people are not the most subtle of people but constantly whining every day about the Horde is not how you should define the Alliance.

    I have yet to see ONE thread talk about the Alliance in good detail without trying to belittle the Horde in some major way, I mean, all the grand topics like

    "We should have Dalaran outside Undercity"
    "We should RETAKE Lordaeron"
    "we should bend over backwards to have High Elves through some strange manner"

    All of these attempt to detract from the Development the Horde has gotten, instead of reinforcing that what the Alliance already has.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    All of these attempt to detract from the Development the Horde has gotten, instead of reinforcing that what the Alliance already has.
    Which is...what, exactly? What has the Alliance gotten? There ave been no moments of pride, no time of glory....not even a single instance of valorous defiance.

    Every single victory has been cheapened and tainted.
    Alliance stories have not been told.
    Alliance lore has not progressed.
    Alliance quests have been cut and pasted from the Horde experience and stories retconned to save time

    So tell us....what development is happening? There has been none since before Cataclysm. I could argue there has been little since LK launched.

    EJL

  10. #10
    Banned The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Which is...what, exactly? What has the Alliance gotten? There ave been no moments of pride, no time of glory....not even a single instance of valorous defiance.

    Every single victory has been cheapened and tainted.
    Alliance stories have not been told.
    Alliance lore has not progressed.
    Alliance quests have been cut and pasted from the Horde experience and stories retconned to save time

    So tell us....what development is happening? There has been none since before Cataclysm. I could argue there has been little since LK launched.

    EJL
    And here is what I am talking about right here. Not all development is supposed to be positive development. The Alliance has been attacked by a Horde that is no longer content to sit in mud huts in a desert. It has faced a much stronger, renewed Horde that has been posed to crush them in every field. But the Alliance held firm, and though formly splintered, has began to unite under the King of Stormwinds command and push back the invading Orcish threat. Right now, the ALLIANCE is standing ready to dealt a swift killing blow to the aggresive Horde Warmachine, and although it does not quite muster the strength to do it alone, the Alliance stands as a grand Beacon of Light and power against the gnarling Horde that ruptures from within.

    But no, people always focus on the bad side and forget that tragedy breeds character. Before Cataclysm, the Alliance was Lazy, ill connected and sluggish, the Horde were poor, small and ill disciplined. Cataclysm shook both sides. It Brought the Horde out of the dust and it smacked the Alliance out of their stupor.

    No Longer is the Alliance a fraction of Humans doing human things here, and some night elves doing Night elf things there. It's a united effort. What kind of Alliance player are you if you pine and whine about the Horde so much, you forget that the ALLIANCE has won the war. And the Horde is now at the Mercy of this glorious Army of Light.

  11. #11
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Here is how we increase Alliance excitement without redoing old zones.


    We stop bitching about everything the alliance does and comparing it to the Horde. Instead of whining that the Horde gets development either through conquestion or rebellion. We try and see the Development thats actually happening. I know alot of people are not the most subtle of people but constantly whining every day about the Horde is not how you should define the Alliance.

    I have yet to see ONE thread talk about the Alliance in good detail without trying to belittle the Horde in some major way, I mean, all the grand topics like

    "We should have Dalaran outside Undercity"
    "We should RETAKE Lordaeron"
    "we should bend over backwards to have High Elves through some strange manner"

    All of these attempt to detract from the Development the Horde has gotten, instead of reinforcing that what the Alliance already has.
    Ok, Gilneas. It's something that, as I understood, in lore, belongs to Alliance. I want improvements to Gilneas, since it's something the Alliance already has.
    And we have Dalaran, I want it to appear in Dustwallow Marsh in the place where Theramore was, flying over. New quests there for Alliance since questflow is kind of borked.
    Or, a third possibility, Arathi Mountains Rewamp to let us have Stormgarde fully. I mean, a part is already ours and rest is ogre and syndicate, Horde have no quarrel there.
    Take your pick, one of the three.
    What, this isn't ok?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Which is...what, exactly? What has the Alliance gotten? There ave been no moments of pride, no time of glory....not even a single instance of valorous defiance.

    Every single victory has been cheapened and tainted.
    Alliance stories have not been told.
    Alliance lore has not progressed.
    Alliance quests have been cut and pasted from the Horde experience and stories retconned to save time

    So tell us....what development is happening? There has been none since before Cataclysm. I could argue there has been little since LK launched.

    EJL
    Fully agreed. The problem is that if they do something next expansion, the leveling content will still remain 100% same. So once next expansion's event passes... Well, you'll still level through the Old World and see defeat after defeat, so one win somewhere close to max level won't matter that much.

    Also adding to this that they will probably go away from the faction war. So, the problem here is, since the Alliance-Horde winnings are measured in wins, if the Alliance wins... I don't know, the superfortress of the legion, sure it would be cool, but it would still show them as a largely neutral faction that in the leveling content gets kicked in the ass by Horde and does nothing. It would be like the whole leveling content is like that battle in Icecrown, Alliance go to kill undead and the Horde come behind and kill them. That's how it feels right now to me. Night elves go to Hyjal to fight Ragnaros and orcs come in Ashenvale and destroy.

  12. #12
    Turalyon's great but I'd rather see him focused on battling the Legion than the Horde. Alliance has had nothing but humans as their main characters this expansions, we should let the Draenei shine for a bit or something.

  13. #13
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Honestly? Right now the Alliance doesn't feel like an Alliance. It feels like 'Varian and his vassal nations, two of whom are run by people with thousands of years of leadership and wartime experience, one of whom is one of the oldest people on the planet.'

    It's hard to feel faction pride when a woman who led a military and held a society together for ten thousand years is portrayed as an irresponsible zerg-rushing Leeroy to make the big human hero look good, the well-liked and intelligent dwarf leader is shoved into the fridge to make way for his borderline-sociopathic daughter, his brother, and the High Thane of the Wildhammers (the latter two of whom are portrayed as gullible to let Moira run rampant until she magically develops a sense of loyalty out of fucking nowhere in Patch 5.3), one of the heroes of the Third War, a known moderate and long the Alliance's sole voice of reason when everyone else on the Alliance and Horde were imbibing stupid pills became a mentally-broken psychopath who jumps to the same extremist reactions she constantly called King Chinn out on, a Second War veteran learns the value of humility and cooperation only to spend the next several years hanging out in Stormwind's throne room doing absolutely fuck-all, an ancient, wise, and gifted-with-foresight priest, arguably one of the most powerful priests in history, faffs about and needs to be reminded that there is such a thing as the present by a kid, and the gnomish leader has done little of note beyond retake the surface of his homeland with the entire Alliance's best and brightest helping out.

    The Alliance hasn't felt like an Alliance in a long, long time--ever since Wrath it's felt increasingly like 'Varian and Friends,' with every Alliance nation pledging immediate fealty to Varian the moment his lantern jaw and GRIM AND GRITTY scars make the scene, with at least one Alliance leader being shoehorned into the 'Token Extremist' role despite over a decade of characterization as the voice of reason for the sake of making him look good and making THE HOARDZ look worse than it already did with Garrosh Blackhand running the show.

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  14. #14
    Banned The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    Ok, Gilneas. It's something that, as I understood, in lore, belongs to Alliance. I want improvements to Gilneas, since it's something the Alliance already has.
    And we have Dalaran, I want it to appear in Dustwallow Marsh in the place where Theramore was, flying over. New quests there for Alliance since questflow is kind of borked.
    Or, a third possibility, Arathi Mountains Rewamp to let us have Stormgarde fully. I mean, a part is already ours and rest is ogre and syndicate, Horde have no quarrel there.
    Take your pick, one of the three.
    What, this isn't ok?
    Basically you want Alliance to get a huge presence right next to Horde territory, in every single point you are raising there.

    I have no Qualms over Gilneas. If the Horde get a large zone with a large city directly one zone away from an Alliance capital.

    I have no Qualms over Stromgarde. If the Horde get a large fortess directly next to one of the level 20 zones of the Alliance.

    I have no Qualms over Dalaran. If the Horde get to Plonk a big Horde base directly into a middle tier zone so they can dominate it and fix "Questflow".


    Things never taken into account by these "Wishes" is they vastly disrupt the Power of Balance, the Power of Balance THAT WAS PUT IN PLACE, by Cataclysm. Because before, the Alliance had much more ground.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 11:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Honestly? Right now the Alliance doesn't feel like an Alliance. It feels like 'Varian and his vassal nations, two of whom are run by people with thousands of years of leadership and wartime experience, one of whom is one of the oldest people on the planet.'

    It's hard to feel faction pride when a woman who led a military and held a society together for ten thousand years is portrayed as an irresponsible zerg-rushing Leeroy to make the big human hero look good.
    You never played Warcraft 3 did you? Tyrande was always like this.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    That won't do anything while Alliance racials beyond Every Man still blow chunks, I'm afraid. People will still love Horde, play Horde, eat sleep and drink Horde.

    Face it, Alliance are a minority. We don't get anything but trod upon and whatever scraps Blizzard decides to toss our direction.

  16. #16
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    You never played Warcraft 3 did you? Tyrande was always like this.
    Doesn't really change the point--she's supposed to be one of the brightest military minds on the planet with millennia of experience. One would think being an expert in hit-and-run ambush warfare would mean she knows zerging someone in an entrenched position with the high ground, an easily-defensible base, and superior numbers is a great way to get her army wiped out.

    edit: Even in WC3 she was moderately smarter than that. She made phenominally boneheaded moves like turning on the Watchers to free Illidan, but arguing to waste lives bull-rushing a well-defended position when she's supposed to be an expert in ambush warfare is a whole new level of stupid for her.

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    That won't do anything while Alliance racials beyond Every Man still blow chunks, I'm afraid. People will still love Horde, play Horde, eat sleep and drink Horde.

    Face it, Alliance are a minority. We don't get anything but trod upon and whatever scraps Blizzard decides to toss our direction.
    I love how you whine about racials, when all the Alliance racials are broken for PvP.

    Escape artist much?

    Shadowmeld?

    Got to love the 10% heal and 10% damage reductions for Dwarf and Draenei.

    Darkflight is pretty damn nifty too.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 11:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Doesn't really change the point--she's supposed to be one of the brightest military minds on the planet with millennia of experience. One would think being an expert in hit-and-run ambush warfare would mean she knows zerging someone in an entrenched position with the high ground, an easily-defensible base, and superior numbers is a great way to get her army wiped out.
    No, it doesn't change the point. It directly stops your point flat. If she was a hyper aggressive kill-nazi who ran in and attacked everything in warcraft 3, she clearly was not one of the brightest military minds on the planet with millennia of experience was she?

    You're trying to write Tyrande off as some kind of General. She was never such. She was a Priestess of the Moon, a Divine figurehead to lead the Night Elves based on the whims of Elune.

    Shadaris was the General. She was the one to lead and command the Night Elves. Jarod Shadowsong did the same during the Burning Legion invasion. Tyrande has not done ANYTHING on the scope them two have done. She is a battle-priest. Nothing more.

  18. #18
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    And here is what I am talking about right here. Not all development is supposed to be positive development. The Alliance has been attacked by a Horde that is no longer content to sit in mud huts in a desert. It has faced a much stronger, renewed Horde that has been posed to crush them in every field. But the Alliance held firm, and though formly splintered, has began to unite under the King of Stormwinds command and push back the invading Orcish threat. Right now, the ALLIANCE is standing ready to dealt a swift killing blow to the aggresive Horde Warmachine, and although it does not quite muster the strength to do it alone, the Alliance stands as a grand Beacon of Light and power against the gnarling Horde that ruptures from within.

    But no, people always focus on the bad side and forget that tragedy breeds character. Before Cataclysm, the Alliance was Lazy, ill connected and sluggish, the Horde were poor, small and ill disciplined. Cataclysm shook both sides. It Brought the Horde out of the dust and it smacked the Alliance out of their stupor.

    No Longer is the Alliance a fraction of Humans doing human things here, and some night elves doing Night elf things there. It's a united effort. What kind of Alliance player are you if you pine and whine about the Horde so much, you forget that the ALLIANCE has won the war. And the Horde is now at the Mercy of this glorious Army of Light.
    True, not all development is meant to be positive, but it's expected to be good.

    The Alliance has indeed been attacked by the Horde... and they lost on most fronts. Ashenvale, Southern Barrens (remember, even if there was an Alliance offensive before you got there, the zone ends with the destruction of the dwarven fortress, plus that most supplies were coming from Theramore), Dustwallow Marsh, Stonetalon Mountains, Azshara, Silverpine (worgen), Gilneas (being invaded comes as loss, only recently one of the devs said the Alliance has all of Gilneas but they didn't show it, but I haven't seen that), Alterac Mountains and Hillsbrad Foothills, Western Plaguelands.
    The Alliance lost here, on all these places, but Alliance only won in Swamp of Sorrows and Darkshore and you could count Jade Forest since our flyer remained in the air. But remember, in Swamp of Sorrows the victory isn't show fully. Why could the Horde victory over Theramore be shown and the one over Stonard could not?

    Also, the Alliance was always united. This wasn't a band of misfits that banded together and each were suspicious about one another like orcs felt with forsaken for example to need a strong warchief. This was an Alliance, like NATO. And they''re turning it into the Warsaw Pact where Big Brother Stormwind and the great leader Varian will lead all. Sure, maybe humans could look weird when they saw a night elf, but the alliance was made because of a same goal, protecting their lands. And the races of the Alliance didn't hold mistrust to one another, at best they thought some of the other races were weird in their ideas, but nothing else. This isn't like the forsaken making a plague behind everyone's back or the blood elves joining the Horde but actually awaiting redemption from Kael'thas and all that. The Alliance was united already.

    Ok, now I wonder, why doesn't the Alliance muster the strengh to be able to do it alone? I don't say I don't want Horde to get content, but I want to know why the whole of that powerful united Alliance you talk about isn't strong enough to deal with: orcs allied with Garrosh (not all orcs in existance) and... ummm... that's really it, as the other races of the Horde are fighting Garrosh too... So the Alliance can't deal on its own, the full might of the Alliance... with 1/6 of the Horde... yea... I don't feel my faction is so strong now. As I said, I don't say Horde shouldn't get content, but we should get our own, not be sidekicks to them.

    I don't remember the Alliance before Cataclysm being that... I mean, our push into Outlands went ok, in Northrend we even had some epic moment at the Wrathgate, and the draenei only weren't welcomed because the human commander was posessed by that undead blood elf... no, I can't remember the Alliance not being unified and sluggish. Maybe if you gave some examples on where we did bad and we're doing better now? But clear ones, like... look, in this zone, before you were getting beaten, now the full might of all races stands together.

  19. #19
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    No, it doesn't change the point. It directly stops your point flat. If she was a hyper aggressive kill-nazi who ran in and attacked everything in warcraft 3, she clearly was not one of the brightest military minds on the planet with millennia of experience was she?

    You're trying to write Tyrande off as some kind of General. She was never such. She was a Priestess of the Moon, a Divine figurehead to lead the Night Elves based on the whims of Elune.

    Shadaris was the General. She was the one to lead and command the Night Elves. Jarod Shadowsong did the same during the Burning Legion invasion. Tyrande has not done ANYTHING on the scope them two have done. She is a battle-priest. Nothing more.
    Then maybe Blizzard should stop trying to portray her as the night elves' top military commander and put more effort into showing Shandris running the military and Tyrande as their governmental and religious leader. In WC3 and WoW, Tyrande was the one out on the front lines running the military in person, with the night elves behaving as though it were a regular occurrence. That's been ongoing since she became High Priestess, which implies she has had at least a few thousand years' worth of experience in running a military even if she gave Shandris most of the duties as time went on.

    If Tyrande's not the military commander, Blizz needs to either admit to it and start giving Shandris limelight during military operations the night elves get involved in outside Feralas (and why is the head of the night elves' armed forces in Bumfuck Nowhere anyway? One would think Shandris would either be on the front lines in the Ashenvale theater where the fighting's really getting nasty or in Darnassus coordinating troops.), or stop portraying Tyrande as having the military knowhow of a toddler while telling us the exact opposite.

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I can't see it helping. Sure, it'd hurt if he was neutral but keeping him Alliance won't help.

    What will help is a solid focus on and attention to Alliance stories and lore. And unfortunately, Blizzards insistence on not updating or using old zones largely prevents that.

    But even where it isn't prevented, Blizzard has shown a lack of something in engaging with Alliance players and plots

    In the Firelands, for example....we went up against Ragnaros. What had he been doing for the past few centuries? Messing with the Dark Irons. Why were the Dwarves not represented? Why was that storyline not used?

    Fandral. A Night Elf. Rival to Malfurion. Dislikes much of what has happened. Malfurions thoughtlessness and treatment of his own people caused many to join with Ragnaros. And when he first appeared as a Druid of the Flame.....Malfurion is ignored.Why was that Night Elf story not expanded upon? Why was Thrall made the focus of a patch that did not concern him?

    Velen and Genn, and the Draenei and Worgen, aren't even used in the game. They literally have no impact.The High Elfs have more of an impact and more lore and faction development...and they are NPCs. Heck, the Kalu'ak have more of an impact.

    There are a whole host of stories that can take place in Alliance lands, using existing NPCs and wouldn't require any modification of the terrain. But they aren't being told.

    That's why Alliance players are getting fed up. This issue has been growing for a while, since before Cataclysm launched and its taking less and less for Alliance players to lose their cool over this. And the situation shows no sign of getting better.

    The horde will be dealing with the ramifications of the Siege wherever they go. But Alliance victories, Alliance progression, can really only be dealt with in lands the Horde has taken from the Alliance. That will always be seen as 'unfinished business' and Blizzard can't show it.

    EJL


    Bringing back Turalyon might actually advance an Alliance group that has stagnated since WC3.

    The paladins.

    Has there been ANY Alliance based paladin lore since WoW launched? If there was I missed it. We got a crapton in order to let us know how and why the Belves and the Tauren can use it but paladins have been ridiculously quiet on the Alliance front.

    Considering how they were the poster boys for the Alliance it's a damn shame.
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