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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    •Bigger Health Pool (» 22.43% stamina boost)

    this is not entirely tru

    druids = 1.10 (bear form) * (1.06 talent) * (1.05 MotW) = 1.2243
    warrior = 1.15 (specialisation) * 1.05 (MotW) = 1.2075
    paladin = 1.15 (specialisation) * 1.05 (MotW) = 1.2075
    death knight = 1.09 (specialisation) * 1.08 (blood presence) * 1.05 (MotW) = 1.2478

    also an other weakenss for feral druids is that despite our high single target threat, (and the MASSIVE damage boost while bezerk is up) i often find myzelf 1 or 2K dps lower then our warriors tank (for fights where enrage timers matter)

    and how about self healing? paladins take an other +6% healed on them. warriros have a chance to heal for 1% of thier hp each time they take damage and a DK is full of it lol.
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jathro View Post
    I don't wanna be that guy, but your Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration links to Glyph of Maul.
    Thank you for telling me.

    Again it is a code problem. i will fix it.

  3. #23
    Signet of the Elder Council > Elementium Destroyer Ring
    Pendant of the Lightless Grotto > Elementium Choker

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    •Bigger Health Pool (» 22.43% stamina boost)

    this is not entirely tru

    druids = 1.10 (bear form) * (1.06 talent) * (1.05 MotW) = 1.2243
    warrior = 1.15 (specialisation) * 1.05 (MotW) = 1.2075
    paladin = 1.15 (specialisation) * 1.05 (MotW) = 1.2075
    death knight = 1.09 (specialisation) * 1.08 (blood presence) * 1.05 (MotW) = 1.2478

    also an other weakenss for feral druids is that despite our high single target threat, (and the MASSIVE damage boost while bezerk is up) i often find myzelf 1 or 2K dps lower then our warriors tank (for fights where enrage timers matter)

    and how about self healing? paladins take an other +6% healed on them. warriros have a chance to heal for 1% of thier hp each time they take damage and a DK is full of it lol.
    You forgot Leather Specialization and i never counted the MotW buff yet.

    So i do the math again for you.

    druids = 1.10 (Bear Form) * (1.06 GoW) * (1.05 Leather Specialization) = 1.2243
    warrior = 1.05 (Plate Specialization) * (1.15 Sentinel) = 1.2075
    paladin = 1.05 (Plate Specialization) * (1.15 TbtL)= 1.2075
    death knight = 1.05 (Plate Specialization) * 1.08 (Blood Presence) * (1.09 VotTW)= 1.23606

    1.17% difference, not that much of a difference. I did not said the biggest stamina boost, i just said bigger meaning it beat warrior and paladin.

    If enrage timers does matter and it is not our fault but the DPS. Their job is to make sure the boss is dead before the timer go off. Tank job is to keep the boss away from everyone.

    Self Healing is a different problem, the reason why we have smaller amount is because of the pvp complication.

    4% heal every-time Druid Crit.

    6% heal every-time paladins heal themselves.

    10% chance to gain chance to heal for 1/2/3% of warrior hp each time they take damage

    The only thing I would said, is that we should gain something from Nurturing Instinct but pvper would QQ too much.

  5. #25

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Katarn View Post
    Signet of the Elder Council > Elementium Destroyer Ring
    Pendant of the Lightless Grotto > Elementium Choker
    Signet of the Elder Council vs Elementium Destroyer Ring

    there is only 7 dps increase from going Elementium Destroyer Ring to Signet of the Elder Council. Very small difference. You can still go into raid with Elementium Destroyer Ring.

    Pendant of the Lightless Grotto vs Elementium Choker

    Pendant of the Lightless Grotto: Reforge give me 102 Mastery (0.57), 3 Crit (0.02%)
    Elementium Choker: Reforge and socket give me 27 Dodge (0.15%), 77 Haste (0.6%), 1 Sockets

    Also, if you look at the upgrade list for Pendant of the Lightless Grotto and Signet of the Elder Council you would find my choices as a better upgrade in wowhead.

    Signet of the Elder Council

    Pendant of the Lightless Grotto

  7. #27
    Signet of the Elder Council vs Elementium Destroyer Ring

    there is only 7 dps increase from going Elementium Destroyer Ring to Signet of the Elder Council. Very small difference. You can still go into raid with Elementium Destroyer Ring.
    Elder Council is still better, which is not what you have implied.

    Pendant of the Lightless Grotto vs Elementium Choker

    Pendant of the Lightless Grotto: Reforge give me 102 Mastery (0.57), 3 Crit (0.02%)
    Elementium Choker: Reforge and socket give me 27 Dodge (0.15%), 77 Haste (0.6%), 1 Sockets
    Pendant vs Choker differences:

    -20 Agility, +2 Crit, +112 Mastery, -77 Haste, -6 Dodge.

    Ehhhhh....you might be right on this one. But the difference will be negligble.

    Also, if you look at the upgrade list for Pendant of the Lightless Grotto and Signet of the Elder Council you would find my choices as a better upgrade in wowhead.
    I don't think I need to explain to you how wrong those "upgrade" searches are.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Katarn View Post
    Elder Council is still better, which is not what you have implied.



    Pendant vs Choker differences:

    -20 Agility, +2 Crit, +112 Mastery, -77 Haste, -6 Dodge.

    Ehhhhh....you might be right on this one. But the difference will be negligble.

    I don't think I need to explain to you how wrong those "upgrade" searches are.
    I think you do not know the history behind Elementium Destroyer Ring, it was 359 ring until blizzard downgrade it to 346. You can have Elementium Destroyer Ring and Signet of the Elder Council however it is 7 dps increase from having two Elementium Destroyer Ring. You can mix and match.

    two Elementium Destroyer Ring
    Elementium Destroyer Ring and Signet of the Elder Council
    Signet of the Elder Council and Skullcracker Ring
    Elementium Destroyer Ring and Skullcracker Ring

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    I think you do not know the history behind Elementium Destroyer Ring, it was 359 ring until blizzard downgrade it to 346. You can have Elementium Destroyer Ring and Signet of the Elder Council however it is 7 dps increase from having two Elementium Destroyer Ring. You can mix and match.

    two Elementium Destroyer Ring
    Elementium Destroyer Ring and Signet of the Elder Council
    Signet of the Elder Council and Skullcracker Ring
    Elementium Destroyer Ring and Skullcracker Ring
    Doesn't change the fact that Signet is still better than Destroyer for mitigation.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Katarn View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that Signet is still better than Destroyer for mitigation.
    Give me the data that make you think Signet of the Elder Council is better than Destroyer.

    I would tell you that rawr use wowhead data.

    Both rings are so close it does not matter at all, 1.3%, maybe to you it does.

    There is only one ring between them, Vicious Gladiator's Ring of Accuracy.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Give me the data that make you think Signet of the Elder Council is better than Destroyer.

    I would tell you that rawr use wowhead data.

    Both rings are so close it does not matter at all, 1.3%, maybe to you it does.

    There is only one ring between them, Vicious Gladiator's Ring of Accuracy.
    Rawr is riddled with bugs, and Astrylian is trying to pass it off on someone else. You can ask Tangedyn for more details if you want.

    You asked for our help, and I'm not going to agrue with you over very obvious things (Signet having superior dodge, Mastery, agility, and stamina).

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Katarn View Post
    Rawr is riddled with bugs, and Astrylian is trying to pass it off on someone else. You can ask Tangedyn for more details if you want.

    You asked for our help, and I'm not going to agrue with you over very obvious things (Signet having superior dodge, Mastery, agility, and stamina).
    Again, sometime Blue gear can beat a higher ilvl.

    What you want me to said Signet is BiS, it is only 1.3% better or worse than Destroyer.

    That is a very small improvement.

    Don't let item lvl blind you.

    Destroyer is overbudgets.

    Signet: 42 Agi, 58 Mastery (0.32), 5 Dodge (0.03%), 77 Haste (0.6%) VS Destroyer: 26 Stamina, 89 Crit (0.5%), 1 Sockets

    Like I said Signet and Destroyer are close in the race.

    All you will get is 7 DPS from changing Destroyer to Signet.

    Sure, go ahead a gear one Destroyer and one Signet.

    One is EH, the other is TTL.

  13. #33
    You should at least remove the line about Bears having more health anymore. It's either not true, or at least a contentious issue, especially with the way many of us are gemming.

  14. #34
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Self Healing is a different problem, the reason why we have smaller amount is because of the pvp complication.

    4% heal every-time Druid Crit.

    6% heal every-time paladins heal themselves.

    10% chance to gain chance to heal for 1/2/3% of warrior hp each time they take damage

    The only thing I would said, is that we should gain something from Nurturing Instinct but pvper would QQ too much.
    as far as i know paladin take a +6% extra heals from all sources and they do an extra +6% healing thier self even if used on others
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  15. #35
    Again, sometime Blue gear can beat a higher ilvl.
    Well yeah. But 99% of the time only in the case of PvP gear, or Agi vs Str items.

    What you want me to said Signet is BiS, it is only 1.3% better or worse than Destroyer.
    It's still better, and that's the point. Doesn't matter how much better it is, if it's still better.

    That is a very small improvement.

    Don't let item lvl blind you.
    Don't let bad math and horrible sims blind you.

    All you will get is 7 DPS from changing Destroyer to Signet.
    DPS is irrelevant.

    One is EH, the other is TTL.
    EH is irrelevant in a Normal mode raiding scenario. Every EH threshhold (with the possible exception of Chim) is met with gear without going out of your way to stack it.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Katarn View Post
    Well yeah. But 99% of the time only in the case of PvP gear, or Agi vs Str items.


    It's still better, and that's the point. Doesn't matter how much better it is, if it's still better.


    Don't let bad math and horrible sims blind you.


    DPS is irrelevant.


    EH is irrelevant in a Normal mode raiding scenario. Every EH threshhold (with the possible exception of Chim) is met with gear without going out of your way to stack it.
    You keep on going and going saying it is better without giving me the math for it.

    IT IS A MIX AND MATCH.

    You can have 2 Destroyer ring or Destroyer and Signet. It does not matter at all.

    Physical fight: Signet win

    Magic fight: Destroyer win

    You see the reason why it is so close is because the type of fight make one ring better or worse.

    It is like why we take more than two trinkets to raid.

    Just be happy that it is on the list of BiS for Heroic with the (MIX AND MATCH) near the ring.

  17. #37
    If I may clarify a little bit Katarn, I believe Auroro is just pointing out that since we can't exactly equip two Signets the best match to pair it with is the Destroyer. Stat for stat Signet comes ahead just slightly in a 1v1 comparison, but we get the blessing of wearing two rings!

  18. #38
    The guide implies that the Destroyer is better than the Signet by suggesting that wearing 2 is optimal. I definitely disagree with this. Signet should be listed before Destroyer and the "x2" should be removed.

    Pendant of the Lightless Grotto should be listed up there too. It's close enough in value to the Elementium Choker that which is better depend on how hard and how fast we are being attacked.

    Wowhead/Rawr stat valuation should definitely not be treated as being accurate. I can say with full confidence that my spreadsheet is more accurate that Rawr. I was asked to take over maintenance of Rawr.Bear but I declined. Even then, I can't say that my spreadsheet is fully accurate because stat valuation can vary quite a bit depending on the numbers you put into the pink section.

  19. #39
    There are absolutely 0 fights where I would wear a stam gemmed Elementium Destroyer over Signet or VP ring. None. Zero. Zilch.

  20. #40
    My mistake, I did not realize it was implying a stam-gemmed Destroyer. An agility gemmed would still be quite nice though for pre-raid. As far as the VP ring obviously it paired with Signet would be the best combo however the VP ring requires quite a good deal of Valor points and I would suspect most to jump into raiding before it is acquired.

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