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  1. #1
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Prayer of Mending vs. Prayer of Healing as a GCD - A discussion.

    Preface: I've noticed that our other Holy Priest gets a lot more healing from Prayer of Mending, naturally she's just using it more often than I am (at my fault of course, I know I don't use it enough). I've also been hardcore raiding as a Holy Priest since Vanilla and have done everything from US 50 KJ to US138 Pre-nerfed M'uru. Currently 6/13.

    More often than not I am putting out more or equal numbers with different healing breakdowns. Now, I know the benefits of this and providing synergy through different healing methods is great. Especially when having multiples of the same spec/class versus everyone doing the same thing (this is why we bring all different healing classes and not just all Holy Priests, right?).

    I just wanted to get some opinions on this. I know that what I am doing is fantastic and I am completely confident and comfortable in my healing style (and consider myself an exceptional player) - I heal people that matter and focus a lot on triage with PoH on lowest groups, etc versus ProM that is a single target, somewhat, random heal. I also use Renew a lot more than she does (mostly on tanks), but I generally use the GCD on PoH over ProM. I'm not a good with all the wow math stuff, and would just like a solid discussion.

    Comments like "you're bad, use ProM more" can save us both the time and go elsewhere. This is meant to be a solid discussion on ProM and it's usefulness as a GCD versus PoH during those tight moments when a lot of people are low (think Incineration Security Measure + Shadow Infusion). Please focus on that.

    Even if ProM isn't going to bounce more than once, if at all, is it worth it because of the Glyph? Should it just be dropped on CD whether or not there's pulsing AoE damage coming out?

    Here's our Magmaw kill for this week where we have nearly identical effective healing and HPS, but very different healing breakdowns.

    All Omnotron wipes + kill last night

    Feel free to look through any other logs from the previous week (I just joined last week). Also keep in mind Lightwell usage, which can somewhat skew things. I had better placement on Omno later on, etc.


    Again, unproductive and trolling comments aren't wanted. Go elsewhere. Also, if you didn't read the whole post don't bother commenting with your half-arsed responses either. Thanks
    Last edited by Mazi; 2011-03-18 at 02:09 PM.

  2. #2
    High Overlord Ariahna's Avatar
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    I am in the camp that uses ProM on cooldown or close to it. I routinely do more healing with the spell than our other holy priest who doesn't. The argument for this play style is that it is a relatively cheap heal (especially in Inner Will) and it's actually our highest HPM spell according to EJ, and it is cast it and forget it (or you can use a mod to track it if you feel it is necessary). It's a very efficient heal with the glyph, even if you only get one or two additional charges from it after the tank. It's one of those spells you can cast while moving from stuff unlike PoH, and frankly you can't always judge when your raid members will or won't get hit by stuff. In summary, it is not JUST for aura damage situations.

  3. #3
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    I've often grappled with the question of whether or not to use PoM as often as I did in wrath. The conclusion I came to is that during pulse aoe situations like chim's feud or Chogalls shadow aoe. Much like sanctuary I try to precast it so it is working while I am busy using coh or poh. Otherwise, I am just casting it on the tank on Cd for the most part (obviously certain situations dictate otherwise). With two holy priests in the group, however, be careful that you are not overlapping each others pom since the most powerful one will take the spot of one casted with less spell power

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  4. #4
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariahna View Post
    It's one of those spells you can cast while moving from stuff unlike PoH
    And this is the prime reason I don't use it on cooldown. I like to have it up when I'm moving.

  5. #5
    I'm personally quite lazy at using it, not at all like circle of healing which I definitely use every single time it goes of cooldown if 3 people or more are damaged. That said, it's an amazing spell and it's worth throwing almost constantly. The reason I've been saving it a bit is mainly that I need it for when chakra needs to be refreshed, with the change in 4.1, I think I will start using it everytime it goes off cooldown.

    I don't think the discussion wether or not it's effective to use on cooldown compared to PoH is all that important, because I find it's actually quite simple, unless you need a full on AOE heal RIGHT NOW, it's better to cast the instant PoM first, then cast PoH. What's more interesting is which situations PoM is worth saving. For example on situations such as Maloriak deep freeze and the firebeam on omnotron. In these situations, a player needs a big health buffer. Having a PoM ready for those situations is great since it gives a shield-like ability. Throw shield, throw PoM, watch all the damage disappear into nothing.

  6. #6
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobberoth View Post
    I don't think the discussion wether or not it's effective to use on cooldown compared to PoH is all that important
    I do

    As you can see I'm putting out life-saving numbers by using PoH more often than ProM in those big situations like mentioned on ODS. Yes, things could be better if I would just remember to throw it out before the damage was even going to come, but that's not the point. What about mid pulsing damage when you have to choose to cast ProM again or PoH on that group that's around 50% HP or less? That's what I'm talking about.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    I do

    As you can see I'm putting out life-saving numbers by using PoH more often than ProM in those big situations like mentioned on ODS. Yes, things could be better if I would just remember to throw it out before the damage was even going to come, but that's not the point. What about mid pulsing damage when you have to choose to cast ProM again or PoH on that group that's around 50% HP or less? That's what I'm talking about.
    Well, you're generally a pretty bad healer if you get to the point where you're surprised by pulsing HARD aoe damage when your group is down to 50%, but regardless, you're belating a PoH by about 1 second to get a really effective smart heal out there. Since the casttime for PoH is longer than that, I really can't see a problem. If you have a decent amount of haste, it's not like a 1 second delay will break a group. If the damage is that strong and someone is in such a weak state when it begins, it makes even more sense to use PoM since it heals for a LOT more and is instant. Throw it on the lowest person and from then on the lowest person will be safe. I find that way more important than a PoH coming out 1 second faster.

    I don't have the math to back it up of course, but it makes sense to me. PoM is smart and strong, PoH is slow and weak, but wide.

  8. #8
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobberoth View Post
    Well, you're generally a pretty bad healer if you get to the point where you're surprised by pulsing HARD aoe damage when your group is down to 50%, but regardless, you're belating a PoH by about 1 second to get a really effective smart heal out there. Since the casttime for PoH is longer than that, I really can't see a problem. If you have a decent amount of haste, it's not like a 1 second delay will break a group. If the damage is that strong and someone is in such a weak state when it begins, it makes even more sense to use PoM since it heals for a LOT more and is instant. Throw it on the lowest person and from then on the lowest person will be safe. I find that way more important than a PoH coming out 1 second faster.

    I don't have the math to back it up of course, but it makes sense to me. PoM is smart and strong, PoH is slow and weak, but wide.
    Have you done heroics like Magmaw & ODS? ProM heals 1 person at a time so in the 2.1 sec to cast PoH I've healed 5 people and ProM has probably healed 1-2.

  9. #9
    High Overlord Ariahna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    What about mid pulsing damage when you have to choose to cast ProM again or PoH on that group that's around 50% HP or less? That's what I'm talking about.
    If you are moving cast ProM, if you yourself are not having to move from anything (someone with flamethrower, cloud, slime, etc.) then I tend to just spam PoH and CoH, or channel Divine Hymn until the groups are stable. That's just me though. Like I said, I try to use it on CD, there are definitely exceptions.

  10. #10
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    I do

    As you can see I'm putting out life-saving numbers by using PoH more often than ProM in those big situations like mentioned on ODS. Yes, things could be better if I would just remember to throw it out before the damage was even going to come, but that's not the point. What about mid pulsing damage when you have to choose to cast ProM again or PoH on that group that's around 50% HP or less? That's what I'm talking about.
    If it's mid point, then just poh and coh. The full pom won't be consumed, so IMO it's a wasted GCD at the point. Pre-pulse aoe, it's great, just like Sanctuary

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    Have you done heroics like Magmaw & ODS? ProM heals 1 person at a time so in the 2.1 sec to cast PoH I've healed 5 people and ProM has probably healed 1-2.
    And with the PoM first, you will at 3.1sec have healed 7-8 people, and the weakest person has a big heal waiting to happen on him the next time he's damaged. PoH has the "problem" that it heals everyone uniformly. Since some classes die faster because of their armor and hp, it's nice to have a smart heal to balance it out and give extra focus on those players so they don't die while your PoH heals everyone.

    IMO it's a safety net and it would have to be a very bad and critical situation for PoM to be devalued against PoH, the kind of situations where every single second counts, for the whole group.

  12. #12
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    It depends on the damage pattern of the fight. Sometimes you're just going to use it because you're moving and you have no better suited instant to use. PoM should pretty much always be up somewhere in the raid, the spell causes very low overheal and contrary to what you're saying, it isn't really random at all, it jumps to the lowest health unit in range.

    Just look through your logs of the magmaw kill and the omnotron kill. The overheal numbers for PoM is basically the lowest of all spells so if the charges are getting used you need to make sure it's out there bouncing. You should definitely be using it more than you are (and judging by your logs that goes for CoH as well by the way).

  13. #13
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    If it's mid point, then just poh and coh. The full pom won't be consumed, so IMO it's a wasted GCD at the point. Pre-pulse aoe, it's great, just like Sanctuary
    This is exactly the point I'm getting at. I know I don't cast it enough before the damage goes out, I tend to focus on pre-casting PoH, which I should be casting ProM first, I know. My point was about during big bursty times while it's happening/happened and not "precasting it before stuff comes out."

    I'm not a bad player by any means, at all. I'm very confident in my playstyle, etc. It was just something I noticed about the past few nights in my newly found Heroic Modes (which are insanely different to heal than normals).

  14. #14
    Do you have some way of tracking PoM? In particular a way to see where it is using grid or equivilant.
    Given your raiding history I would imagine you're a decent healer and generally have an idea of where everybody is at any given time, so seeing PoM sat on a tank about to get hit is good, seeing it sat on say a mage who is very unlikely to take damage isn't so good.

    I definately don't cast PoM on CD, if it's still bouncing around and isn't stuck on someone then I'll leave it bouncing. If it's used it's charges or is 'stuck' I'll recast it.

    That said I believe maths will say that for healing per mana it's worth casting on CD, especially since the first charge heals more it may be worth casting on a tank (and increased chance to keep inspiriation up if that's a role for you)
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  15. #15
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparrow View Post
    Do you have some way of tracking PoM? In particular a way to see where it is using grid or equivilant.
    Given your raiding history I would imagine you're a decent healer and generally have an idea of where everybody is at any given time, so seeing PoM sat on a tank about to get hit is good, seeing it sat on say a mage who is very unlikely to take damage isn't so good.

    I definately don't cast PoM on CD, if it's still bouncing around and isn't stuck on someone then I'll leave it bouncing. If it's used it's charges or is 'stuck' I'll recast it.

    That said I believe maths will say that for healing per mana it's worth casting on CD, especially since the first charge heals more it may be worth casting on a tank (and increased chance to keep inspiriation up if that's a role for you)
    Grid icons.

    Tanks aren't always in range of other raid members so you risk it being lost in the abyss. We're also running with 3 (sometimes 4) healing priests atm so there seems to be a lot of overriding (which we're going to work out before next raid) of ProM on tanks. And since we're running so many Priests (I was really the only healing priest in my last guild) I will probably pick up PoM Tracker.

    I understand the effectiveness of ProM, how to use it, etc but I don't think people are actually thoroughly reading my post in regards to the specific scenarios I'm talking about here :\

  16. #16
    High Overlord Ariahna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    This is exactly the point I'm getting at. I know I don't cast it enough before the damage goes out, I tend to focus on pre-casting PoH, which I should be casting ProM first, I know. My point was about during big bursty times while it's happening/happened and not "precasting it before stuff comes out."

    I'm not a bad player by any means, at all. I'm very confident in my playstyle, etc. It was just something I noticed about the past few nights in my newly found Heroic Modes (which are insanely different to heal than normals).
    I disagree with the logic that if ProM is cast mid-aura that it's a waste because it won't be fully consumed. There is no way to know that and if you are moving and it is up, definitely cast it, regardless if it is mid-aura or not. There is nothing better you can do as a holy priest while moving than casting CoH or ProM if they are off CD imo. Like others have said, it's a smart heal and is usually one of the lowest overheal spells we have, which is amazing considering you don't control it.

    I think you always come out ahead using good things on CD (including trinkets), versus trying to wait for the best time or optimal time to use them, and that I believe is the disparity you are seeing in your guild's logs.

  17. #17
    It's also worth noting that PoH can result in greater overhealing than PoM. The HoT effect of the glyph as well as other healing (for instance overlapping PoH between all the priests on the same group) will be partially wasted. PoM on the other hand is an instant, reactive heal and as such would, on average, result in less overhealing assuming the damage taken is on any significant value. The heal goes off before any spells can be cast. And since the meters track effective healing, this could be a factor in the healing breakdown.

    This point is, of course, rather situational and theoretical but it has been my own observation in our raids. I've also rarely run into the issue of all the charges not being used up. as long as it is cast on low hp "clusters" such as the melee or a stacked range group there is generally enough random damage going out that it is used up, or mostly used up, before the spell comes off cd. Again however, this is from my own raid experience which could differ greatly from yours due to any number of things (raid comp, specific encounter, variations in strategy, etc.)

    Good Luck!

  18. #18
    I would generally throw it out a few seconds before obvious AoE damage is going to start pulsing and then start my Prayer of Healing precasting. As for during AoE damage it would depend on what type it is. If it's something that only has two ticks left there's not really much point, but if there is a little while left on the pulses so it will get a chance to jump all five times then I will.
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  19. #19
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    You're all still just stating the obvious. I guess I just failed at my first post.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    I understand the effectiveness of ProM, how to use it, etc but I don't think people are actually thoroughly reading my post in regards to the specific scenarios I'm talking about here :\
    Exactly. I don't think that one healing style is automatically better than another. You're more likely to have overhealing (read: potentially wasted mana) with PoH than ProM and as you already stated, each spell is very situational. I personally do not keep ProM on CD because, like you, it is very handy at certain times to have as your go-to spell. However, there are some fights where I do keep it on CD due to the random raid damage, such as the Halfus fights with the bombs from the sky that tend to catch some raid members off guard. If I am running a raid instance where we have a lot more melee than normal, I may be inclined to keep ProM on CD just to help the tank healer keep the melee and tank up while I focus my other heals on raid members.

    I use healbot which tracks the number of ticks left on ProM and shows who it is currently buffed on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    Even if ProM isn't going to bounce more than once, if at all, is it worth it because of the Glyph? Should it just be dropped on CD whether or not there's pulsing AoE damage coming out?
    I would say no because I would have rather had people click on my lightwell instead. That is far more efficient for me and people can heal themselves while casting, swinging, running, or whatever. I do often find that my ProM will time out on some members...if that happens often, then I know not to use that as a CD for that particular raid composition and fight.
    Last edited by Aceso Jenkins; 2011-03-18 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Added some info.
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