Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, United States
    Posts
    1,395
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariahna View Post
    I disagree with the logic that if ProM is cast mid-aura that it's a waste because it won't be fully consumed. There is no way to know that and if you are moving and it is up, definitely cast it, regardless if it is mid-aura or not. There is nothing better you can do as a holy priest while moving than casting CoH or ProM if they are off CD imo. Like others have said, it's a smart heal and is usually one of the lowest overheal spells we have, which is amazing considering you don't control it.

    I think you always come out ahead using good things on CD (including trinkets), versus trying to wait for the best time or optimal time to use them, and that I believe is the disparity you are seeing in your guild's logs.
    The reason I know it won't be consumed if castes mid pulse aoe is that there is no pulse aoe like wrath, that goes on for a very long time. Most pulses are short and bursty--magnetron, magmaw, chogall, chimaeron all prime examples. In that case. Your poh would go much further toward stabilizing the raid than stopping those casts for a PoM that, if casted mid pulse aoe, might heal three targets during that time period. CoH and PoH are much better uses in those particular situations.

    Again, I stress that pre pulse aoe, using a PoM (and sanctuary, if all are stacked) gives you passive healing while you stabilize the raid with PoH and CoH. Double points if people also click your lightwell in those phases.

    Outside of pulse AoE, PoM is and has always been a crapshoot. You may cast it on a tank, it shoot to a rogue who needed healing at the time, but then rng dictates that he doesn't take any more damage before your next PoM cd is up. That's why I suggest casting it on CD on tanks on non ape phases and why I use it pre PULSE aoe, because that is sometimes the only way you will see every charge used up and used efficiently while you blast the raid with your big heals

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
    16/16 Heroic T14
    10/13 Heroic T15

  2. #22
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    1,431
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    The reason I know it won't be consumed if castes mid pulse aoe is that there is no pulse aoe like wrath, that goes on for a very long time. Most pulses are short and bursty--magnetron, magmaw, chogall, chimaeron all prime examples. In that case. Your poh would go much further toward stabilizing the raid than stopping those casts for a PoM that, if casted mid pulse aoe, might heal three targets during that time period. CoH and PoH are much better uses in those particular situations.

    Again, I stress that pre pulse aoe, using a PoM (and sanctuary, if all are stacked) gives you passive healing while you stabilize the raid with PoH and CoH. Double points if people also click your lightwell in those phases.

    Outside of pulse AoE, PoM is and has always been a crapshoot. You may cast it on a tank, it shoot to a rogue who needed healing at the time, but then rng dictates that he doesn't take any more damage before your next PoM cd is up. That's why I suggest casting it on CD on tanks on non ape phases and why I use it pre PULSE aoe, because that is sometimes the only way you will see every charge used up and used efficiently while you blast the raid with your big heals
    Noodle gets it

  3. #23
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, United States
    Posts
    1,395
    Not to mention that PoH heals for what, like 35,000 hp (conservative and arbitrarily thrown out number, I know my individual non crits can hit in the 8k range).

    You don't even have to do the math to see that casting PoM during aoe is a wasted GCD. The only case where using it during pulse air would be good is if most of the raid is topped up well, but you see that one person lingering low. You could then make the decision that your next PoH might be overheal and toss a PoM on that player to give him a quick buffer.

    ---------- Post added 2011-03-18 at 04:06 PM ----------

    And sorry, my iPhone really likes to fuck with autocorrecting wow acronyms like aoe

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
    16/16 Heroic T14
    10/13 Heroic T15

  4. #24
    Dreadlord Devourer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    780
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    Preface: I've noticed that our other Holy Priest gets a lot more healing from Prayer of Mending, naturally she's just using it more often than I am (at my fault of course, I know I don't use it enough). I've also been hardcore raiding as a Holy Priest since Vanilla and have done everything from US 50 KJ to US138 Pre-nerfed M'uru. Currently 6/13.

    More often than not I am putting out more or equal numbers with different healing breakdowns. Now, I know the benefits of this and providing synergy through different healing methods is great. Especially when having multiples of the same spec/class versus everyone doing the same thing (this is why we bring all different healing classes and not just all Holy Priests, right?).

    I just wanted to get some opinions on this. I know that what I am doing is fantastic and I am completely confident and comfortable in my healing style (and consider myself an exceptional player) - I heal people that matter and focus a lot on triage with PoH on lowest groups, etc versus ProM that is a single target, somewhat, random heal. I also use Renew a lot more than she does (mostly on tanks), but I generally use the GCD on PoH over ProM. I'm not a good with all the wow math stuff, and would just like a solid discussion.

    Comments like "you're bad, use ProM more" can save us both the time and go elsewhere. This is meant to be a solid discussion on ProM and it's usefulness as a GCD versus PoH during those tight moments when a lot of people are low (think Incineration Security Measure + Shadow Infusion). Please focus on that.

    Even if ProM isn't going to bounce more than once, if at all, is it worth it because of the Glyph? Should it just be dropped on CD whether or not there's pulsing AoE damage coming out?

    Here's our Magmaw kill for this week where we have nearly identical effective healing and HPS, but very different healing breakdowns.

    All Omnotron wipes + kill last night[/url]

    Feel free to look through any other logs from the previous week (I just joined last week). Also keep in mind Lightwell usage, which can somewhat skew things. I had better placement on Omno later on, etc.


    Again, unproductive and trolling comments aren't wanted. Go elsewhere. Also, if you didn't read the whole post don't bother commenting with your half-arsed responses either. Thanks
    So why exactly is Prayer of Healing -> PoH and Prayer of Mending is ProM. Aren't both of them PRAYERS ? What's the point in adding the R to the latter ?

  5. #25
    High Overlord Ariahna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    115
    Well it's easy to agree with people who heal the same way you do, but isn't part of the reason you made this post was to get different viewpoints? If you just made this post waiting for someone to tell you they do it the same way it seems like a waste. Another observation from the fight you linked is that although you and Caprece had very similar eHPS for the fight, you relied more heavily on your high haste and casting PoH to get there, he/she relied more on smart heals (CoH & PoM). You were active 99.2% of the fight and they were only active 96.8% of the time but he/she took a lot less damage than you did. That's one of the drawbacks to relying so heavily on PoH.

  6. #26
    In general it's a HPS loss to cast PoM mid-pulse, assuming PoH is actually healing 5 people. PoM is similar to Sanc in that it is high HPCT but (usually) low HPS.

    PoM's HPS is basically a function of how quickly it bounces. In rough terms, PoM and PoH (ex-glyph/mastery) do the same healing per cast, so PoM needs to bounce 5 times in about 2 seconds to equal PoH (ie. once every 0.4 seconds). Even with two damage auras going at once, this typically does not happen. Obviously if PoH is overhealing, PoM can bounce more slowly and still do the same HPS.

    As an aside, CoH is considerably better than both of these and from your logs it looks like you could (should) be using it a lot more.

  7. #27
    Can I just ask, do you use it on cooldown on a fight like Al'Akir?
    Since then it's the highest HPM and HpS spell you ever see/will see!
    Originally Posted by spicie View Post
    Real Life is just an illusion caused by lack of WoW

  8. #28
    If you can hit PoH on a group without overhealing, then delay your PoM to do so. Otherwise cast PoM and use an aura to track it. Do not recast until the spell dissipates. Do not cast it on cooldown unless all charges have been consumed. If you're concerned about movement: Don't be. Use Renew more. It's instant with no cooldown and is a few strong heal. After PoH/CoH Renew should be your top heal.

  9. #29
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, United States
    Posts
    1,395
    Quote Originally Posted by harky View Post
    If you can hit PoH on a group without overhealing, then delay your PoM to do so. Otherwise cast PoM and use an aura to track it. Do not recast until the spell dissipates. Do not cast it on cooldown unless all charges have been consumed. If you're concerned about movement: Don't be. Use Renew more. It's instant with no cooldown and is a few strong heal. After PoH/CoH Renew should be your top heal.
    I'd normally agree with you, but with the new glyph--and assuming you are having no mana problems-- it's better to cast it on cooldown since that first hit will be alot stronger and you'll end up with more effective healing than if you just let it dissipate it's own charges. It's not as efficient hpm-wise, but better for output.

    Though harky, if you can explain how the above is wrong, I will listen open-mindedly. You are usually pretty insightful. I just feel that while your idea is more mana efficient, mine puts out more healing

    EDIT: by on CD, I mean during times when you are not Using PoH and CoH to top the raid
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2011-03-18 at 05:25 PM.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
    16/16 Heroic T14
    10/13 Heroic T15

  10. #30
    The difference between the tick size is 60% of 1 tick. This is 10.7% of the overall heal. So assuming that PoM will eventually tick on its own before expiring due to duration all you actually gain is 10.7% of the heal as HPS. Let's use a made up number like say 7.5k average tick with 12k initial tick. About 8.4k average. This means recasting with existing ticks on PoM is only worth a 4.5k heal for a GCD. So you have to ask this question; Is there another spell you can use on that GCD that heals for more than ~4.5k? This answer will universally be yes. Even Heal has higher healing per execute than this. This means unless you believe that PoM will not bounce again, or you have free time and excess mana, you should not refresh PoM. It's not only higher overall mana efficiency, but also higher time efficiency.

    There are exceptions to every rule. For instance if you're doing a fight like say Maloriak. Let's say you're in Blue. You PoM the tank. It bounces to a melee, then bounces to ranged. At this point unless Red is starting within 30 seconds it is very unlikely that PoM will be consumed. At this point you can make a call that it is worth recasting PoM under the assumption that the charges of the first cast will not be consumed. Under any circumstance where they will be consumed the judgment call is instead whether or not you can make better use of the GCD than to increase a single tick of PoM by 60%. Just remember what you are dealing with is not free. It costs you that GCD.

    Just because the existing PoM will heal later does not mean it will lower your HPS, or overall healing. When you cast the first PoM you had the assumption it would do up to X healing. Let's call it 560% (160% tick + 4x 100% tick). Now you recast when it only did 360% (3 ticks total). This over-writing retroactively reduced the HPET of the previous cast by 45%. This lowers your perhaps 47k HPC to 25k HPC and puts that GCD you spent earlier down lower in priority. For all you know if you had cast Heal instead and gotten say a 15k crit. Would PoM have ticked without you recasting? That would put you up by 10k healing over what you would have done by overwriting it.

    Hopefully that helps.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    Even if ProM isn't going to bounce more than once, if at all, is it worth it because of the Glyph? Should it just be dropped on CD whether or not there's pulsing AoE damage coming out?
    (1) I think the general consensus is ProM should not be cast mid pulse.
    (2) I also think the general consensus is casting ProM on CD on tanks when the raid is stable is an HPS increase.
    (3) Also, it can be assumed that the priest would be in Sanctuary.

    Therefore, I submit that ProM cast midpulse may be the correct option if:

    (A) The damage Player X will take in 2 pulses subtracted by the healing he will receive during that time is greater than his current remaining health. However, if ProM activates on the first pulse, he or she would survive the second.
    (B) The priest is in Sanc.
    (C) The healing provided by CoH cast directly on the player would be insufficient.
    (D) The healing provided by PoH is either insufficient or too slow.
    (E) ProM is cast before the first of the two hits.

    This would be an HPS decrease, but a net better option as you saved a life, which is the primary function of the healer.

    That is the best argument I can make for a reason to cast ProM midpulse. Ideally, something like this shouldn't need to occur as other healers have far better tools to handle this type of situation.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    I'd normally agree with you, but with the new glyph--and assuming you are having no mana problems-- it's better to cast it on cooldown since that first hit will be alot stronger and you'll end up with more effective healing than if you just let it dissipate it's own charges. It's not as efficient hpm-wise, but better for output.

    Though harky, if you can explain how the above is wrong, I will listen open-mindedly. You are usually pretty insightful. I just feel that while your idea is more mana efficient, mine puts out more healing
    Yours also waits for the damage to go out, and the only guarantee you can have on that on a lot of fights is the tank, or just waiting for random "everyone takes this" blast that won't use up all the charges anyways, whereas Renew is "instant" and when put on pre-emptively it will heal through the blast.

    I, myself, don't really use it "enough", you could say. But there are times when I'm sitting on my circle cooldown too, just waiting for that last bit of burst needed. But, by the same token, I also use Mending to refresh Chakra nine times out of ten, which can be wasted too, so I guess that's a little hypocritical.

    And sorry, my iPhone really likes to fuck with autocorrecting wow acronyms like aoe
    Turn off the auto-correct. I did that the first week of getting my 4.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  13. #33
    Okey, atleast I myself rarely use PoM. I play a style of Holy that is something like this; I keep insp on tank/tanks if I'm REQ to do it. If it's a fight where you have to move alot, such as Magmaw,Omnotron,Atramedes,etc. I save CoH&PoM for when moving, and just spams prayers when standing still.

    So at fights as magmaw & omnotron, PoM is around 10-15% of my healing, but on fights where you stand still alot, I might only use it on pull.
    The HPS Gain/Loss of playing my style might be a bit lower, sometimes higher mabye, but it sure save lives on the move, which is the thing I care about as a Healer, saving lifes. The ones with the highest HPS ain't allways the best, earning HPS topping people at95% HP with circle, and saving it to save lifes..

    What kind of healer do you want to be?

  14. #34
    From my point the huge different isn't really in PoM imo. From what I can tell not only isn't she using PoM on CD all the time but she's using CoH alot more even if it may differ from try to try she's relatively higher with her CoH. Since the buff of CoH has been alot higher it's worth using alot more. When damage is pulsing it's obvious we'd use PoM right before. But from what I can tell, once again, PoM isn't the issue I can see.

    First of, you said you use renew alot more that's true, even if you keep it rolling on the tanks the result of it ticking will compete with overheals if the tank is at full health, resulting in ticks providing the overhealing aka not giving HPS. While your fellow priest tend to use Renew slightly less, she seems to keep PoM,PoH followed by instant CoH when there's heavy damage.

    Summarizing my opinion is that try to keep CoH on CD all the time when melee or grouped up. Since Magmaw is such a fight I believe your fellow priest considered that CoH provides a whole lot better HPS now and keeping it on cooldown when AoE damage is out is a whole lot better. But yeah, the PoM can be discussed but like I've mentioned this whole post I don't think that's where the issue lays it's ground.

  15. #35
    High Overlord Ariahna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    115
    There is a lot of discussion in this thread about pulsing AoE damage. While of course that is the best and most effective use of a spell like PoM, it's not the only one. Not to mention that damage pattern in not present in Cata encounters to the extent it was in Wrath. I throw this out as an example of a great time to use ProM on cooldown that does not involve raid wide AoE or pulsing damage. The dark phase of heroic Maloriak. This spell is great used on CD on the Vile Swill tank. Why? Because he's constantly getting hit, and chances are great that someone (usually multiple people) within 20 yards of him is getting hit or standing in dark sludge. It's best to keep both CoH and PoM on cooldown here and it's not because I would be assured all charges will be used up due to pulsing AoE.

  16. #36
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, United States
    Posts
    1,395
    Quote Originally Posted by obliquee View Post
    What kind of healer do you want to be?
    Step 1: Befriend a Druid
    Step 2: Befriend a Shaman
    Step 3: Recieve Innervate and Mana Tide on CD
    Step 4: ?????
    Step 5: Profit

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
    16/16 Heroic T14
    10/13 Heroic T15

  17. #37
    The Lightbringer Zka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    hungary
    Posts
    3,716
    PoM is not as good as it used to be. Especially as disc. Much lower heal compared to max health, raid damage is much slower. It's only good to use on cd if at least 3-4 charges will be used. Otherwise it's an on-the-move button or a maxhealth extender, if needed.

    Retired raider coming back for WoD.
    WoD BETA CLUB

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •