Ghostcrawler Developer Blog: Raid Progress

[Ares42]

When they hit a wall and are unable to move past it that leads to in-fighting, blaming, people only showing up on farm nights, etc etc. I really don't see how changing structure back to Vanilla/BC style will fix any of that.

The difference is that it's not about hitting a wall at all. There's just a large group of people that don't really care about hardmodes, so even if they could push through it they don't care enough to actually do it. The group is most likely a minority compared to the 2 groups that are satisfied though, so the split probably satisfies more people, however I still believe it's the reason why you see a big outcry for more content so quickly these days. As you say, people want progress, and when they finish normals in a few weeks and consider that being done, waiting for a new raid for months just doesn't cut it.

[Seriousdoom]

Originally Posted by Holo View Post
The BWD one

i bet he never been there ! :P

aha that one, yeah ive been there i just havent had any problems with it. heroic leap ftw.

[Missmoo]

really?...sigh

[duster2]

The difference is that it's not about hitting a wall at all. There's just a large group of people that don't really care about hardmodes, so even if they could push through it they don't care enough to actually do it. The group is most likely a minority compared to the 2 groups that are satisfied though, so the split probably satisfies more people, however I still believe it's the reason why you see a big outcry for more content so quickly these days. As you say, people want progress, and when they finish normals in a few weeks and consider that being done, waiting for a new raid for months just doesn't cut it.

More contet so quickly ? You do realise we are about the same time when 2.1 patch hit TBC. That expansion started with huge 10 man and then plenty of 25 man content. AND then they released 2.1 after 5 months and it offered another tier with problaby the greatest raid content ever in WOW. ANd you know what? THe progression felt awsome since most better guilds on the server were about to finish the earler conent.

BLizzard has gotten lazy. They are releasing less and less conent and trying to force ppl to play it longer with heroic modes. Thats ok - but it should NOT prevent the real progression of the game - like its doing atm.

Alot of ppl are finding it great time to leave for RIft tho... Including me and Im absolutly LOVING the leveling experience.

[Missmoo]

I am the GM of my guild, and lately we have been dealing with some struggles when it comes to raiding.

We aren't "amazing" players, but we aren't bad either. Most of us are world ranked either as DPS or heals, and our tank has ranked as well. That being said, this content is too demanding. I don't want to use the word "hard". The concepts of the fights are not hard, they are pretty easy to understand. However, RNG and the very little room for error that we've seen with this Tier makes it stressful. Causing a lot of people to lose hope, and quit playing.

I think some of the initial issues with raiding in Cata came from the combining of 10 man and 25 man. A lot of people felt 10s would be easier to do, and thus planned for 10 man raids. But quickly realized that in some instances, 10s were harder. WOTLK was great in my opinion. People were motivated to do 25s for higher level gear, and it allowed the guild leadership to take the lower skilled or under geared players in to 10 man on the weekends (or off-nights) to learn encounters, obtain gear and be evaluated. We lost that with Cata, and I can tell you, as a GM it's been frustrating in many ways.


Now to answer Ghostcrawlers questions:

For those of you who feel like you are stuck on progression, we’d like to hear more about why. Are you trying to PUG the encounters? Do you have a very casual guild with a lot of different players each night?

We do not PUG. We have a pretty consistent group. We raid 4 nights a week, equaling about 12 hours. Cata content has forced us to up our raid schedule, as we previously raided only 3 nights a week.

Is the problem that you’re undergeared or that the mechanics are too unforgiving? What are the mechanics that are really hard for raid leadership to explain or even understand?

We are not undergeared. We started raiding about 2 weeks after Cata was released and quickly made it to 12/12 on 10 man. We then switched to 25 man, and are struggling with a lot of aspects. As I explained above, the mechanics seem easy enough to understand and explain. It's the little room for error and RNG that makes these encounters hard. I'll use Heroic Chimaeron as my first example: If the tank taunts a millisecond to late (due to his own error or latency etc) he automatically dies and it's a wipe. If 2-3 DPS are even slightly low, you hit enrage. If 3 people get hit with caustic slime that happen to be in the same group, 2 seconds before Massacre and the other healers aren't 100% on the ball, it's a wipe. And then, you are also dealing with, if there are more than 2 people dead and he goes into Feud...most likely the raid will take too much damage and you die. Combining all of those together, makes that fight a very tense fight on heroic. It's that way with a lot of the encounters (If 1 Blast Nova get's off in Phase 2 Nefarian it could equal a wipe, same with Hard mode halfus, etc)

The mechanics are just VERY unforgiving.

Are your tanks exploding, or are your healers running out of mana, or are you failing the berserk timers?

Tanks getting one-shot also happens a lot more with these encounters, and we all are aware of the struggles healers are facing. I'm not saying make it WOTLK easy, but there has to be a middle line that would make it more reasonable.

which encounters you are enjoying and which ones you never want to see again

I enjoy most of the encounters. Cho'gall I love. Maloriak is fun too. I really hate Atramedes as it's too difficult for those that have not so good computers or connections.


I'll wrap it up by saying this...

We've seen a lot of World Ranked guilds (Use <Cuties Only> as an example), walk away from WoW due to Cata. That alone should say something to Blizzard. Especially when the specifically point out that Cata content is what caused them to do it.

Quoted from their website : "Cuties Only officially broke up this afternoon (3/1/2011), just like many other high-end progression raiding guilds. Tier 11 is the toughest and most grinding tier Blizzard has ever put on, which resulted in attrition and burnout. "

And it's true, no matter how you look at it.

I think that what made WOTLK raiding successful was that the average level guilds had a chance at 11/12 hard modes, which kept them going. And the "high end guilds" were happy with knowing that they were the only ones that would kill Heroic Lich King and get the rare mount he dropped. It was a happy medium, that motivated everyone to keep going.

Progression and staying on the top is important to raiding guilds. But with this content the Top guilds had to push so hard to get there, leaving them burnt out and done with the game, while the average level guilds like mine have no hope that we will ever get there, since the top guilds are struggling...so why bother?

[Cassidin]

Protip: I was smarter than 95% of the Blizzard Dev team the moment I enrolled in an undergraduate level Software Testing course.

Which explains why these teams of Blizzard Developers have created the biggest, most successful game of all time (currently) and each expansion sets new records. Wait a moment.... no - it doesn't explain it at all! I guess you are mistaken.

[isadorr]

[QUOTE=Missmoo;10802599]I am the GM of my guild, and lately we have been dealing with some struggles when it comes to raiding.

We aren't "amazing" players, but we aren't bad either. Most of us are world ranked either as DPS or heals, and our tank has ranked as well. That being said, this content is too demanding. I don't want to use the word "hard". The concepts of the fights are not hard, they are pretty easy to understand. However, RNG and the very little room for error that we've seen with this Tier makes it stressful. Causing a lot of people to lose hope, and quit playing.

I think some of the initial issues with raiding in Cata came from the combining of 10 man and 25 man. A lot of people felt 10s would be easier to do, and thus planned for 10 man raids. But quickly realized that in some instances, 10s were harder. WOTLK was great in my opinion. People were motivated to do 25s for higher level gear, and it allowed the guild leadership to take the lower skilled or under geared players in to 10 man on the weekends (or off-nights) to learn encounters, obtain gear and be evaluated. We lost that with Cata, and I can tell you, as a GM it's been frustrating in many ways.


Now to answer Ghostcrawlers questions:



We do not PUG. We have a pretty consistent group. We raid 4 nights a week, equaling about 12 hours. Cata content has forced us to up our raid schedule, as we previously raided only 3 nights a week.



We are not undergeared. We started raiding about 2 weeks after Cata was released and quickly made it to 12/12 on 10 man. We then switched to 25 man, and are struggling with a lot of aspects. As I explained above, the mechanics seem easy enough to understand and explain. It's the little room for error and RNG that makes these encounters hard. I'll use Heroic Chimaeron as my first example: If the tank taunts a millisecond to late (due to his own error or latency etc) he automatically dies and it's a wipe. If 2-3 DPS are even slightly low, you hit enrage. If 3 people get hit with caustic slime that happen to be in the same group, 2 seconds before Massacre and the other healers aren't 100% on the ball, it's a wipe. And then, you are also dealing with, if there are more than 2 people dead and he goes into Feud...most likely the raid will take too much damage and you die. Combining all of those together, makes that fight a very tense fight on heroic. It's that way with a lot of the encounters (If 1 Blast Nova get's off in Phase 2 Nefarian it could equal a wipe, same with Hard mode halfus, etc)

The mechanics are just VERY unforgiving.



Tanks getting one-shot also happens a lot more with these encounters, and we all are aware of the struggles healers are facing. I'm not saying make it WOTLK easy, but there has to be a middle line that would make it more reasonable.




I enjoy most of the encounters. Cho'gall I love. Maloriak is fun too. I really hate Atramedes as it's too difficult for those that have not so good computers or connections.


I'll wrap it up by saying this...

We've seen a lot of World Ranked guilds (Use <Cuties Only> as an example), walk away from WoW due to Cata. That alone should say something to Blizzard. Especially when the specifically point out that Cata content is what caused them to do it.

Quoted from their website : "Cuties Only officially broke up this afternoon (3/1/2011), just like many other high-end progression raiding guilds. Tier 11 is the toughest and most grinding tier Blizzard has ever put on, which resulted in attrition and burnout. "

And it's true, no matter how you look at it.

I think that what made WOTLK raiding successful was that the average level guilds had a chance at 11/12 hard modes, which kept them going. And the "high end guilds" were happy with knowing that they were the only ones that would kill Heroic Lich King and get the rare mount he dropped. It was a happy medium, that motivated everyone to keep going.

Progression and staying on the top is important to raiding guilds. But with this content the Top guilds had to push so hard to get there, leaving them burnt out and done with the game, while the average level guilds like mine have no hope that we will ever get there, since the top guilds are struggling...so why bother?


Have you looked at how many guilds arent struggling? How many have cleared all normal content? Not all content is meant for everyone or maybe you need to look at those dps that arent putting up the numbers they should for heroic raids. Or replace people with bad connections or undependable computers. You realize how many guilds have been 12/12 for a long time now and this is considered the normal content so it is in fact easy.

You stated you are 12/12 so you have cleared normal content and heroic content is supposed to be alot harder where people really need to put up the dps,hps and tps that is needed for heroic bosses. If they nerf heroic raids then there really isnt left in the game anymore except casuals.

[ScottsdaleHokie]

Six paragraphs, and he basically said absolutely NOTHING.

Still no reason to come back to this game.

---------- Post added 2011-03-19 at 11:29 PM ----------

Which explains why these teams of Blizzard Developers have created the biggest, most successful game of all time (currently) and each expansion sets new records. Wait a moment.... no - it doesn't explain it at all! I guess you are mistaken.

The developers that created the game and made it great are LONG gone.

[inzombiac]

mmmmmmmmmm

---------- Post added 2011-03-20 at 12:47 AM ----------

Hiya alll homies

[Missmoo]

You stated you are 12/12 so you have cleared normal content and heroic content is supposed to be alot harder where people really need to put up the dps,hps and tps that is needed for heroic bosses. If they nerf heroic raids then there really isnt left in the game anymore except casuals.

First, I didn't state that we are 12/12. I stated that we got to 12/12 Normal quickly. We are currently 4/13 hard modes in.

And you obviously aren't a raider. Have YOU looked at how many guilds are progressed? Most AVERAGE level guilds are 5-7 hard modes in. That's nothing.

Have you looked at how many hard core, world ranked guilds have left WoW, and stated how terribly hard this content is.

Whats your guilds progression?

[Wilderness]

First, I didn't state that we are 12/12. I stated that we got to 12/12 Normal quickly. We are currently 4/13 hard modes in.

And you obviously aren't a raider. Have YOU looked at how many guilds are progressed? Most AVERAGE level guilds are 5-7 hard modes in. That's nothing.

Have you looked at how many hard core, world ranked guilds have left WoW, and stated how terribly hard this content is.

Whats your guilds progression?

How are the average guilds 5-7 hard modes in when only 20% of guilds have downed Nef? Where are you getting these numbers from for all your statements about the average guild progress and hard core guilds quitting. How many is that?

[Astalnar]

Only problem my guild is having is lack of "correct" loot. We get all the mail and leather in the world. Our Hunter and druids are geard up for all main specs and off specs possible while others are still trying to get gear, and we are 11/12.

[tenzing21]

Six paragraphs, and he basically said absolutely NOTHING.

Still no reason to come back to this game.

---------- Post added 2011-03-19 at 11:29 PM ----------



The developers that created the game and made it great are LONG gone.

Yeah... um, no. The developers that created WoW, left to either make Hellgate:London, Guildwars, or Rift. There only a few persons left from WoW alpha, and most (probably all) have been moved over to Titan.

Blizz makes 1.44 billion dollars a year now. There should be 20 BGs in this game, and a BG out every 98 days, and instead of 8 instances, Cata should have shipped with 18, adding a new one every 21 days. This game is bleeding off consumers to Rift at an alarming rate, and Swtor ain't gonna be good times for Blizz, sorry to say.

GC is an #$@%, no doubt about it, and his attitude is part n parcel of why it is the game is declining. Never thought I'd say Cata was a disappointment, but it is. There is nothing do during your 3 hours a night, besides a few bgs and/or a raid that takes 90% of people months to figure out.

WoW was and still is fun. I play it, but this summer, I gots me a feeling WoW's shortcoming are gonna catch up to it

Just sayin.

[kingmob]

What i like about his post is that it suggests that even with firelands out we will still raid BOT & BWD.

That's exactly what I don't like about the comment. No progression minded guild will want to lose the time learning the new encounters that it takes to go back and do the farm encounters.

[Limstella]

I have to agree with him, I quit WoW 3 months ago, because our guild could not progress. I don't want to spend days and days just downing 2 or 3 bosses, nor do I want to spend and 2hrs to complete a heroic. People have lives beyond wow, and play wow to have fun, and honestly I'm not having fun anymore, and glad they put GC down, he was acting like an $%^. He was one the main reasons I quit, I'm not going to put down for saying the heroics take to long, they are not hard they just take too freaking long. On the bright side Rift is fun, I suggest it to everyone, it really interesting and I think its got potential.

Btw Don't try Dc universe I played it on my friends computer, major failure.

[Contravene]

I have been playing this game since 12/16/2010 I have downed Halfus already as a pug tank twice now but my guild is only 6 good players strong so far so I am just pug Tier 11 status.. Blizzard is funny about the progress limiting thing.. I am Tier 11 raid ready in a few months but the content is hard to pass from this point forward it is pretty much just wipe city for my tank with small successes now.. That is a model for people to quit not the way Blizzard has it. in my opinion .

Blizzard lets you stomp through all content until the last piece then it is stupid unbeatable.. Top guilds in the world can beat HC Tier 11. Then you will wait for an undetermined date to pass that content unless you are a top guild with all the tools, resources and yes class/race combos as was previously stated..

Is this a complaint? No man this is one of many games available to me today and this game belongs to Blizzard let them do what they will.. I am having a lot of fun right now still and I plan to stomp another character up to almost finished! lolz but certainly I am not trying to beat Heroic Tier 11 that is not in the cards for me probably ever.

[Osmeric]

"Most guilds that are trying seem to be making some progress."

In other news, most happy people are happy.

Maybe GC needs to look at all his customers, not just a portion selected to make his decisions look good.

[Seaborn]

I have been on a break since the end of Wrath. Just did a BoT and also did the first boss in Heroic mode. From what I have seen so far, I think that have made it challenging enough for the majority of the population. That will always be there goal. The top X percent that are done now are the ones that have time spent together raiding and all the raid team is solid and dependable. Personally if I was in one of these guild one of those guilds. I would feel a little slighted. Then again those are usually around 3-4% of the wow population. The rest do what they can. Guilds that have drama, which is by far the most of them, will always get to a certain point then then have a guild drama mama that sets them back a bit. Its a shame but its the truth. The issue of quid xp and special items only adds to the "guild Issues"

to Firebane- It doesn't matter what game it is. If you have a game last for 6 years, people are going to get tired of it. No matter what the content is, if you are burned out, you are just burnt. Blizz can change a few things that may bring some people back but most move on to another game. The group that I played and raided with Vanilla and TBC Left the game long ago.

[Kardinal]

I'm tired of the Blizzard raid grind. I do like very much what was done with all the new 1-60 content, and I alpha/beta tested Cataclysm. But the raids... are raids. And yes, for now, Rift is more interesting because it is different.

I find that I miss what has become comfortable over the course of six years of playing - and I miss the lore and backstory I have known for a long time. But more raid grinding gives me a headache

So much has been changed and the developers really work hard on keeping the game interesting - and WoW dominates the market for that reason, but the grind factor is ALWAYS there. I understand that there are people who feel that they have to endure a grind in order to deserve this gear or that item, that for many players, unfortunately, the game supplies the goals that some don't have yet in life.

But I do have those goals and grinds in daily life. I don't WANT them in a game; I want to have fine.

Fun doesn't mean instant downing of this or that, but it does mean freedom from so many who truly believe that if you don't spent 8 hours a day player, you don't "deserve" the best gear.

And unfortunately you folks get behind that. By making it impossible unless a person spend too many hours - hours on dailies or farming for gold and rep, hours in instances for points for basic gear; and the All Might "Gearscore" - which has now morphed into the even mightier PlayerScore by which YOU WILL BE JUDGED.

I'm an adult, I'm *not* a guy and that, frankly, in this game already puts me several paces behind. There are those who will say "We treat our chicks the same" - and that makes me laugh; In six years I've not come across more than a small group of people - usually educated adults who play casually - who REALLY don't have that attitude imbedded within them.

I've spent time at the top of the raid heap in a VERY SERIOUS guild where you were kicked the second time your real life impinged on your game life - i.e., you were signed up for a raid and suddenly had a family emergency. Not acceptable. "Oh she had family issues." Nope, sorry, it wasn't me - but seeing others treated that way was the same thing; merely because YOU are not treated in such a way doesn't matter if someone else in the same group is; being silent and letting it happen makes you as culpable as anyone else.

It's A GAME. Pixels don't imbue us with real life power. And for all the little notes about "Spent time with your friends OUTSIDE Azeroth" - Blizzard doesn't really want you to do that, it wants you IN the game. Look at the sheer number of lives that have been blighted by divorced, loss of jobs, failing out of school. You might say they should control themselves, but people crave the acceptance of others; we are, after all, herd animals. If you know your guild won't be happy if you aren't there, it's VERY hard to not be there for most people, especially the more impressionable (which unfortunately again, despite what many think - is them - most people).

I would have liked to have seen the game become GENUINELY accessible to those who don't want to chose between family/friends/live and a game. I've been told by MANY people that 2-3 hours of play a day 5x a week is less than casual.

REALLY? 15 hours a week is LESS than casual? What about 3 hours a day every day? That's 21 hours a week, a second job. That too is seen as a non-commitment.

Commitment?

If this is a game ONLY for children or socially maladept people who have nothing else to do - then SAY SO and be done with it. If, however, Blizzard wants to keep the subscriptions of all the players, then it should take some responsibility for the damage done by essentially requiring 6-8 hours a day in order to "climb that mountain."


As an addendum, what about new players? WHY do they have to BUY expansions they will never, ever, play? A new player to WoW has to buy three games even though they will NEVER spent 2 years in the BC zones as we did when it first came out, nor will they spend 2 years in the Wrath zones - 2 weeks at most - maybe 3? 4? to obtain the levels in those zones and then on they go. To require NEW people to pay for something - even at a "discount" - is ridiculous.

And frankly that is another problem - because I would be spending time in the game now, but friends would rather not spend $100 to START a game - not including subscription fees. This is something that is a huge issue for the average person. "Hmmm, I can start playing Rift for $40 dollars or start playing WoW for $100+ and subscription fees." Or any other game that includes prior expansions in the game that new people buy.

I leave off here and don my flame retardant jammies because I'm sure the hate will flow - and frankly that is yet another issue. This game is populated by far too many angry adolescents who truly get off on attacking and flaming -- and when the worst things are said, MAYBE sit out three hours, or at the very, very worst, three days. It's a mini vacation for them to get some sleep and doesn't address the problems.


For those of you in guilds comprised of real life friends and family - you're in another class, you can enjoy the game, not let it take over your lives, and have fun. But MOST of us are not in that situation, and for that reason, the burnout of grinding, of too many hours lost for essentially nothing - and all the other issues cited, Blizzard has to make some REAL changes that aren't only about tending to the "top raiders" but to the larger subscriber base - especially with Rift out and two more games - three - coming soon that will have a great deal of appeal for many.

[airmaxavoitty]

Does your website have a contact page? I'm having trouble locating it but, I'd like to send you an e-mail. I've got some suggestions for your blog you might be interested in hearing. Either way, great site and I look forward to seeing it develop over time.