25m raid questions, please help.

[The Handsome Stranger]

One of the reason's I completely enjoy this site is the great answers and suggestions I get from the members here who share their knowledge freely, and for that I thank you all, but now I have a few questions about 25m raids no one on my server has any clue to answer.

My guild is extremely slow in progression, in fact they have only downed one boss in BoT, and its normal BoT, not heroic, 10 man. One of the huge issues is that, there are enough players to play 25, yet the guild wants to roll 10m for some odd reason, and even if that 10m group wants to roll their raid, there is still enough for a 25m raid. Now I'm thinking about snapping up they scragglers and starting a 25m every weekend, but I need some clear answers for some encounters before I attempt this.

1- The majority of the guild I'm in, everyone is in at least 346 gear, with some crafted epics and or reputation loot, is this geared enough?

2- Say I was going to attempt Magmaw, or the first 2 bosses in BoT on 25m, what should my group make-up consist of, how many heals, tanks, etc...

3- Are there any differences in 25m tactics compared to 10m tactics? A lot of the things I have read say no other than 25m has more hp, its the same basic fight.

Either way, please help me at least try to do some of the current content before the next patch, or my guild will be happy running heroic dungeons yet again...

[Attaxor]

We did 5 bosses 2 days into cataclysm with only our tanks having 346 gear and the rest below that, you are more than geared enough.

[Pieterman]

1. Gear is rarely an issue when it comes to simple encounters. If people in 346 gear can't squeeze out the damage or healing required, they're doing something wrong. Most healing or dps issues come from the buttons pressed, not from the gear collected.
2. From what I understand 6 healers is the best amount. Tanks depents on the encounter. Magmaw requires 2, valonia / theralion only one so far I know.
3. Other than some minor changes, the tactics are pretty much the same. You're not going to oneshot any of the encounters anyways so just give it a few attempts with 10 man in mind, before coming up with a actual tactic.

[Krowz]

In my experience, 25 man raids are exponentially easier than 10 man. Far more room for mistakes, same mechanics, and your raid comp will yield practically every buff. The only fight that is more difficult is Council in BoT.

Also, we've always used 1 tank for magmaw

[Attaxor]

In my experience, 25 man raids are exponentially easier than 10 man. Far more room for mistakes, same mechanics, and your raid comp will yield practically every buff. The only fight that is more difficult is Council in BoT.

Also, we've always used 1 tank for magmaw

No.....just no

1 tank for magmaw? Are you heroclass tanking the skeletons?

[Rocap]

As they said, gear probably wont be the issue, at least in the earlier bosses.
You will need some solid strats if you plan to take 25 people in a raid, you might wanna know what you're doing.
My vote goes to tankspot for this, above all else, they strats they have are clear and understandable, as well as having it all written down right under the video.

There aren't a whole lot of differences in 10 and 25 as far as strats go. I'm gonna have to disagree with krowz up there though. Every fight on 10N has been way easier, save chog'all because of the strict raid comp you need, maybe nef as well. Im not trying to turn this into 10vs25, because thats not what im here for.

Very few people are still interested in running 25's, based on % of the community, there are still a lot, just not as many as there are running 10's. Keep that in mind when you're trying to fill your raid, as if people start to decline, its gonna get rough.

No.....just no

1 tank for magmaw? Are you heroclass tanking the skeletons?

This guy is running Normal, not heroic.
But even if, 2 tanks is still easier because of the armor debuff they added.

[Attaxor]

It really helps to constantly recruiting, in order to never have to cancel you need to overfill your spots.
This will also motivate your players to get better since they have to if they want to keep their raid spot.

[remain]

No.....just no

1 tank for magmaw? Are you heroclass tanking the skeletons?

I am assuming he meant normal Magmaw not heroic Magmaw...

I do agree though, 10 mans are substantially easier than 25 man. I raid 25 man on my main and 10 man on our alts. We blow through 10 man like its nothing and even have a couple heroics down when our 25 man only has 6 heroics down (we just started our 10 man alt run about a month ago).

[Rocap]

It really helps to constantly recruiting, in order to never have to cancel you need to overfill your spots.
This will also motivate your players to get better since they have to if they want to keep their raid spot.

This^^^ can not be stressed enough. +50dkp for mentioning this.
IF you can find the people that want to continue raiding 25's.

[The Handsome Stranger]

There aren't a whole lot of differences in 10 and 25 as far as strats go. I'm gonna have to disagree with krowz up there though. Every fight on 10N has been way easier, save chog'all because of the strict raid comp you need, maybe nef as well. Im not trying to turn this into 10vs25, because thats not what im here for.

The issue is, my guild can't get a decent, competent 10m team set, so instead of the core 4 or 5 they use each and every week, mixing and matching the other 5 and 6, I just want a 25 that is willing to learn and progress in spite of the 10m they try to attempt all the time. It can't be any worse then the 10m group, they have only downed Halfus. Its like when Rob Marenelli was left go from the Detroit Lions after going 0-16, I applied for the head coach job there, I figured I can't do any worse...

They main reason I want to attempt a 25m team is because in almost all the 25m raids I have been a part of, they are more forgiving than 10 for a newer group, if everyone knows what they are doing, 10m is far easier.

[krunksmash]

for magmaw 1 tank and 1 frost dk for add kiteing have everyone stack up on the edge of the cliff so that only the DK gets the piller. for ODS 3 tanks.
for halfus 3 to 4 tanks depending on what drakes are up. always pop time scion and storm first. if two of these are active pop both have one tank take each. if slate is up use the 4th tank and pot 2 on halfus to taunt swap. for twin dragons 1 tank. for all these fights 6 to 8 healers depending on gear and skill of the raid as a whole.

[Marquessa]

I do agree though, 10 mans are substantially easier than 25 man.

I agree, it's easier having less interupters, less room for extra tanks/healers, less snares/slows/cc buffs and gearing up slower.

Edit: Oh and if one of your 10 man players dies it becomes even easier because then you can 9 man it, 24 manning it is a lot harder.

[Rocap]

I agree, it's easier having less interupters, less room for extra tanks/healers, less snares/slows/cc buffs and gearing up slower.

Edit: Oh and if one of your 10 man players dies it becomes even easier because then you can 9 man it, 24 manning it is a lot harder.

Dont turn this into 10vs25, it will get locked and we will get banned or something... I keep telling myself this... BUT... You're not looking at all of the other things that go into that sentence.
It is easier to find 10 players that know what they are doing, it is easier to find 10 players period. Its easier to manage strats, and what could be going wrong. Instead of telling 24 people how to work the mechanic, you're only telling 9. Instead of 3 people dieing to sound, theres 1. For every mechanic that kills 1 person in 10man, if you have those same people in a 25, its going to kill 3, if not more.

Raiding in general may be easier on 25 if you're mindlessly just logging in, raiding and logging out. But its not easier for the people leading these raids, and the people that are working more out of the raid than in.

[Marquessa]

Dont turn this into 10vs25, it will get locked and we will get banned or something... I keep telling myself this... BUT... You're not looking at all of the other things that go into that sentence.
It is easier to find 10 players that know what they are doing, it is easier to find 10 players period. Its easier to manage strats, and what could be going wrong. Instead of telling 24 people how to work the mechanic, you're only telling 9. Instead of 3 people dieing to sound, theres 1. For every mechanic that kills 1 person in 10man, if you have those same people in a 25, its going to kill 3, if not more.

Raiding in general may be easier on 25 if you're mindlessly just logging in, raiding and logging out. But its not easier for the people leading these raids, and the people that are working more out of the raid than in.

Your post breaks down into 2 points as I see it.

1. It's more difficult to find 25 players and running a 25 man guild has inherently more problems.
This is a fair enough point, recruitment can be tight on some realms, especially if you're just starting out, this doesn't and shouldn't have anything to do with the tuning of an actual boss though should it?

2. More players = more people failing.
This doesn't really fly though. Sure having 15 extra players means that you have 15 more players that can fail but it in no way increases the likelyhood of any one of them failing, you will have reliable people and unreliable people in both formats. The rate of failure does not change in a 25 man environment unless you intentionally recruited 10 good players and 15 bad ones and like I mentioned before when bad things happen it's far easier to recover in a 25 man.

Edit: Attempting to make this more on-topic.

1- The majority of the guild I'm in, everyone is in at least 346 gear, with some crafted epics and or reputation loot, is this geared enough?
Yes.

2- Say I was going to attempt Magmaw, or the first 2 bosses in BoT on 25m, what should my group make-up consist of, how many heals, tanks, etc...
If you're just starting out you should probably run with 2 tanks and 6 or so healers, maybe someone with more 25 man experience will give you a more accurate figure for your gear level.

http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com is good for figuring out what buffs/debuffs you have available/missing, outside of that you have to look at things like utility and raid cooldowns that you might want to have in fights.

3- Are there any differences in 25m tactics compared to 10m tactics? A lot of the things I have read say no other than 25m has more hp, its the same basic fight.
There are very few differences in tactics, as a 25 man you sometimes have the luxury of bringing an extra tank to an encounter where in 10 man you would have to have a DPS kite or an extra healer on a particularly tricky fight.