Sharing Realm Firsts - Such a Failure...

[Blacksen]

I'm the GM of a 25man guild, and tonight we snatched up the realm first Heroic Al'Akir kill...

... in the 10man version.

It's just silly, really, but then you have to ask "why not?" We've got about 35 raiders. We can bring a completely optimal class composition for the fight, and overgear those 10 in our normal raids. We skipped heroic Conclave for a week, since the gear there was pretty bad anyway.

Many people predicted that this would happen - 25man guilds would snag up the realm firsts in the 10man setting. And out of the 305 heroic Al'Akir kills worldwide, 274 of them were in a 10man setting, most of which were completed by 25man guilds who did it during off hours.

Sharing realm first achievements was a failure, plain and simple.

I really hope that 4.2 has split realm first achievements that are mutually exclusive. There's just no reason to continue forcing "10 and 25 equal equal equal equal" when they obviously can never be truly equal. Sure, they can be the same in difficulty, but separate simply cannot be equal.

I don't understand the desperation to call them "equal" anyway. Why can't things just be "different" and give the same rewards? 3v3 is very different from 5v5, which is very different from rated battlegrounds, and yet all of them give the same rewards.

[harky]

Agreed. On several levels. It's not fair to the 25 mans as guilds can snipe firsts that are easier on 10, nor is it fair to the 10 mans as the more serious players will typically be in 25 man guilds and beat them to the punch.

[Sadinar]

What other bosses than al'akir has this been a problem from? As far as I know, al'akir is the only boss thats significantly easier in 10 man heroic than 25 man, making this viable.

[dinokaze]

Yeah, the majority of the Heroic mode raid bosses are considerably harder on 10man than 25man. I would hope there is at least 1 contradiction to the rule. =/

[Nukeguy]

I don't really see why it's such a big deal to not have separate 10 and 25 man achievements, even if the loot and difficulty of the instances are "the same".

[PBitt]

But by those standards, wouldn't your guild then get both 10 and 25 man heroic realm first achievements, which would be taking away the reward for any hardcore 10 man teams on your server?. I agree with you in theory, but it would be difficult to implement fairly.

[Blacksen]

What other bosses than al'akir has this been a problem from? As far as I know, al'akir is the only boss thats significantly easier in 10 man heroic than 25 man, making this viable.

Thus in the future, Blizzard would need to always design the realm first bosses to be harder in 10 than 25?

You're right that Al'Akir is unique because he's easier in the 10man, but that doesn't change the rule. If a realm first achievement is up for grabs, why not grab it in the 10man?

[Aqua]

I've never liked this idea of merging 10 and 25 man raiding and I still don't.

You can't do it, there is a significant margin of human error and composition that cannot be balanced by that different amount of people and class mechanics. Why even try?

I like that they've made raids harder but I loathe so much that they've attempted to make the different sizes equal and ended up having serious imbalances in difficulty due to having to balance the bosses around not only different sizes of people but the composition, dps and healing, as well as thinking about space and movement.

Balancing each of the encounters is turning into a bigger time waster than just keeping them separate.

[Deleted]

I never understood this argument. Just because you have more players that are raid ready, why is it unfair if you get a good group comp to snag a realm first?

The 10m players decided not to recruit a lot of players, and you did. If they cared enough, they would recruit/learn/play better.

[sicness]

What other bosses than al'akir has this been a problem from? As far as I know, al'akir is the only boss thats significantly easier in 10 man heroic than 25 man, making this viable.

Pretty much this negates the argument imo.

[kenn9530]

I'm the GM of a 25man guild, and tonight we snatched up the realm first Heroic Al'Akir kill...

... in the 10man version.

It's just silly, really, but then you have to ask "why not?" We've got about 35 raiders. We can bring a completely optimal class composition for the fight, and overgear those 10 in our normal raids. We skipped heroic Conclave for a week, since the gear there was pretty bad anyway.

Many people predicted that this would happen - 25man guilds would snag up the realm firsts in the 10man setting. And out of the 305 heroic Al'Akir kills worldwide, 274 of them were in a 10man setting, most of which were completed by 25man guilds who did it during off hours.

Sharing realm first achievements was a failure, plain and simple.

I really hope that 4.2 has split realm first achievements that are mutually exclusive. There's just no reason to continue forcing "10 and 25 equal equal equal equal" when they obviously can never be truly equal. Sure, they can be the same in difficulty, but separate simply cannot be equal.

I don't understand the desperation to call them "equal" anyway. Why can't things just be "different" and give the same rewards? 3v3 is very different from 5v5, which is very different from rated battlegrounds, and yet all of them give the same rewards.

realm firsts dont really matter anymore as its the guild that gets the acheive not the player and you dont get any extra rewards from killing it first than killing it second.

They cant make a seperate realm first for 10 & 25 because when the boss dies its still dead and since the player doesnt get any realm first achieve now anyway what does it matter.

If there was still at least a realm first FoS available then i would be in a realm first guild again but since there isnt i dont really care about realm firsts anymore. Granted some fights are easier on 10 and some on 25 but the boss can only be killed once so its impracticle to make a seperate realm first for 10 and 25 when the player doesnt get any extra rewards and all that happens is on the achievement on the armory for the realm first the names of the ppl that took part in the kill is there.

[MAGAmobile]

I never understood this argument. Just because you have more players that are raid ready, why is it unfair if you get a good group comp to snag a realm first?

The 10m players decided not to recruit a lot of players, and you did. If they cared enough, they would recruit/learn/play better.

There are so many arguments that completely disprove everything you just said and they've been talked about to death. The underlying point is that 10 and 25 mans should never be treated equal because it's impossible to compare them when they are trying to make them similar. Same goes with realm first achievements. They have different obstacles to overcome that the other simply doesn't have to worry about.

[Pokty]

Actively trying to get a realm first when it's a world 300 kill is just stupid, and no one is impressed.

[xile]

I never understood this argument. Just because you have more players that are raid ready, why is it unfair if you get a good group comp to snag a realm first?

The 10m players decided not to recruit a lot of players, and you did. If they cared enough, they would recruit/learn/play better.

Recruiting 35 people for a 10m and recruiting 35 people for a 25m guild are vastly different. In one case you're going to have essentially at best 3 10 mans where 5 people will be left out, but what do you do when one is missing, what do you do when 29 is missing and that 1 is in the best group out of the 3, who do you pull from, should you? There are tons of issues with 10 man and the biggest being how hard attendance is affected by it, which is an issue for several not super hard core guilds. 25m also has the option of working with 10 anytime they want, whereas 10m guilds are required to grab a much larger group, the GM will have to coordinate several groups all at once at different spots, and all that jazz. SOOO many reasons why 25m and 10m are on entirely different levels.

[Strafir]

Al'akir is a complete pushover in both the 10 and 25man versions. I find it upsetting that your guild evaluates an achievement more than getting a tier boss on farm and gaining three weeks worth of loot with one kill. The difference of downing it in 25man compared to 10man is around 30 wipes or so, once P1 works and stacks wont drop in P2 - its a kill.

[Coldkil]

Very fun post OP.

"We are a imba 25man guild, 10man realm first sucks! Anyway, since Al'akir 25H is too difficult and we want realm first at all costs cause we are imba we made it 10H instead."

Yeah. Gratz on your progress, you are surely above the avreage guild. But your post make me rofl a lot, sorry.

[Deleted]

People make too much a big deal about World first kills, realm first kills and other mundane things...

[Deleted]

i dont know why you are complaining.
10m is overall harder than 25m raiding. you dont "outgear" the instance when you did 25m before. you can only equip faster in 25m. gear is the same.
the only thing that i don't like is the fact that 25m is more rewarding(more points, much faster equipped mainspecs) even though it would allow you to carry a few less skilled players, which is quite hard in 10m.

and a realm first .. well of course you can be somewhat proud about it, but then again it only gives you a maximum of about 2 hours of attention and maybe even "gz" whispers.

but well, gz anyways

[Deleted]

I agree the realm first achievements should be separated, while keeping everything else combined. Gives some well deserved recognition to 10man guilds as well (I wouldn't worry about 25mans guilds grabbing the 10man version ahead of 10mans, if it happens it happens).

10m is overall harder than 25m raiding. you dont "outgear" the instance when you did 25m before. you can only equip faster in 25m. gear is the same.

Maybe not in this case since we're several months into this tier (although some of our raiders are still wearing a blue or two..), but in the early progress push of a new tier that does stack the odds of realm/world firsts in favor of 25mans.

[KaPe]

Very fun post OP.

"We are a imba 25man guild, 10man realm first sucks! Anyway, since Al'akir 25H is too difficult and we want realm first at all costs cause we are imba we made it 10H instead."

Yeah. Gratz on your progress, you are surely above the avreage guild. But your post make me rofl a lot, sorry.

90% of Al'akir kills were done this way. Not only it's a Realm First, but it inflates you wowprogress rank - especially since after ~2more kills, it might count as "25", even though you didn't pull him once in this format.
I'm all for full separation of 10/25 achievements. Failing that, at very least make 2 mutually exclusive Realm Firsts. That way, you wouldn't get 25 man guilds doing 10 man achievement.

Al'akir is a complete pushover in both the 10 and 25man versions. I find it upsetting that your guild evaluates an achievement more than getting a tier boss on farm and gaining three weeks worth of loot with one kill. The difference of downing it in 25man compared to 10man is around 30 wipes or so, once P1 works and stacks wont drop in P2 - its a kill.

Even normal version is much easier in 10 man. If the difference was as minor as you claim, and he was such a "pushover", the number of 25 man kills wouldn't be so small compared to 10 man.