Loot Styles

[Wilderness]

Not necessarily. For a lot of people, being able to show guild leaders the achieves for bosses of current content is necessary to get in a good guild. Thats what they get in return for coming, in many cases.

I don't run with pugs, so I don't deal with that, but that's how many good guilds operate. Ever heard of the phrase guild run?

Of course. But when someone is looking for a pug in trade, advertising a guild run doesn't mean that the pug has no chance at loot. Rather, it emphasizes that its probably going to be a little more coordinated and cohesive of a group than just 10 random pugs who happened to get together. The overall expectation of joining a raid as a pug, whether its a guild run or not, is that loot is open to all. If someone is specifically looking for a pug or two to fill up a guild raid and has no intention of letting that person roll on gear, then they should be up front about that. If they are not then they are purposefully being a dick about it.

I am fully aware of Blizzard's policy on scamming and loot. If the pug player does not ask the RL to say what the loot rules are then it is up to the ML to give out that loot however they want. But that doesn't change the fact that the normal expectation upon joining a raid that doesn't state otherwise is that everyone is rolling on gear. A RL that doesn't mention that is not the case when they know that is exactly how they will be doing it is being intentionally deceptive and while not violating Blizzards policies, its still a jackass move.

Also, I don't think that your idea that a pug joining a guild run so that they can get their achievement is something that happens a lot. I've never seen a guild run raid that needed another person or two that wasn't looking for people who already had that achievement or a certain level of gear. I'm sure that it happens, but its not the norm.

[Deleted]

Using EPGP in my guild, and have been mostly happy with it.

[Deleted]

I've always used DKP in 25 man guilds but raiding 10 mans now, we use a Loot Council. As an officer I'm part of the group deciding (we're 3 ppl deciding) and I've never had problems deciding or had grief over the decisions made.

Ppl don't get punished by getting loot banned, so even if they did fuck up that particular raid, they're still eligible for loot. We ofc prioritize raiders over trials but in general we are very fair with the loot.

I know alot of ppl say that Loot Council can be a very dangerous thing but if you aren't being an ass and pass loot to your friends every time, I don't see an issue tbh.

I like the fact that ppl don't need a certain amount of points to get an item. Here ppl who needs it most or who is next in line for a loot will get it.

[ZeroEdgeir]

We run a remotely SMALL LC I suppose, but mostly, it's been "First drop for certain armor-type/role, is rolled off, after that, winner doesn't roll for another piece until the others have acquired an upgrade each as well". Our guild is only 10m, and most of us are RL friends and family.

So, for example, my sister and I are the tanks (Paladin for me, DK for her). Killed Magmaw, dropped the 2H Mace. She got it, as our Fury warrior passed it to her. Next week, Symbiotic Worm dropped, was handed to me, as she got a tank upgrade the week before. Then Halfus dropped bracers that same week, we rolled, I won and got the bracers.

Has worked well so far, but I am gonna be interested when that first Caster Dagger drops (Elem Shaman, Warlock, Mage, 2x Resto Druid, Boomkin in our caster roster, at least 4 of them in every raid night).

[Calmwinds]

Loot council is the worst. It's subjective, non transparent and inefficient - even in the best scenario it's still inferior to every other method. Never tried EPGP but it seems far too complex with all the decays, need to assign different values to different items etc. DKP systems can be designed to distribute loot in pretty much any way you want so it depends entirely on your specific system - the problem is that people tend to make over complicated DKP rules and many systems result in hoarding. Personally I prefer simple mechanisms like suicide kings or rolling.

Why aren't a council of people able to reduce their analysis or "Deflate" to something similiar to an EPGP system? It seems impossible for you to even imagine a system where either A. council system is run systematically just like any other mechanistic system or B. A group of people are capable in any way to make optimal decisions, and even forget optimal you seem to imply they cannot with any bit of consistency make good decisions. You eliminate all of this a priori. You can even use counciling to decide loot for optimality outside the system of EPGP. So if the council feels it is an inappropriate win inside the system of EPGP, it can be given in name of optimality by counciling it to someone else. EPGP "with" council if you will.

even in the best scenario it's still inferior to every other method.

Citations? Proof? Just plain bullshitting and macho posturing?

Never tried EPGP but it seems far too complex with all the decays, need to assign different values to different items etc.

Too complex for what? Humans? My old guild used to run it with ease. Too complex in general? Speak for yourself many guilds run it.

I agree on one thing though, I am a great fan of suicide kings.

On a different note, I don't know how I exactly feel about "rolling systems". The central limit theorem applies for sufficiently large samples, and it's possible for a person to get shafted a lot and just not get loot. Not the the most optimal system nor the most fair system. So why bother at all? Suicide kings it up if fairness is for you.

[Fujisaw]

why is any 10man guild using anything other than /roll for gear i mean there is only 10 of you more than likely you have a slew of different classes and at most 2 of the same one but outta the 10 classes 4 are all dps meaning there it is even less likly for guilds to have 2 of the same class and 2 of the same spec unless dealing with the 4 pure dps classes. even then the stats are diffent from spec to spec. 25mans do need a set rule for gear so people dont get screwed but 10man really? only loot rule i would have would be main raiders>everyone else unless its going OS

[Contion_BB]

My Guild Uses Suicide Kings. I fine it the most fair and expedient method of handing out loot.

at the start of each "season" a new list is created. for all those there on the initial day will be randomly rolled into spots. The Higher you are on a list the more "chance" you have a loot.

Example: Epic Plate DPS Drops

Warrior - spot 5
DK - Spot 2
Pally - spot 6

DK wins cause he is Spot 2... now he becomes "suicided" to the bottom of the list making his new spot 10
everyone below him moves up one spot, so warrior noe spot 4 and pally spot 5.

If people continuously misses raids, causes wipes, is late without warning, misses even though signed up without warning, talks in vent when fighting, or Is not prepared for the raid can all cause you to loose spots on the list. ranging from 1 to 6 spot penalties.

I've been in guilds that have let DKP get out of hand, and loot councils are always showing favoritism. So the officers choose KSK Loot manager addon. The addon itself even has capabilities to use open roll and it watches the roles for ya.

[kushlol]

Loot Council is by far the best. The only times it doesn't work out is when the guild is full of inexperienced players that don't have the guilds best interests in mind. Most peoples experiences with loot council in guilds was more than likely with power hungry teenagers only concerned about their own character and not the overall progression of their guild and its members. I have never had any issues with loot council in top 50 U.S. guilds however, I have been casual a few times in lesser guilds and have seen the amount of favoritism and selfishness that can go on. Along with all the people who cry over loot and ragequit guilds this loot system is not for you. If you are an individual who is very team oriented and don't play for yourself this is the overall vibe I get from the majority of top guilds where the game is more than loot and the team comes 1st.

Edit: I've been guilded with probably a thousand different players though that disliked loot council who thought it wasn't fair when they didn't get gear. The truth is that they were usually to stubborn or blind to realize someone may have deserved it more at the time or maybe their personal performance wasn't up to par(this is the case most of the time). So as soon as they got passed up on loot they labeled loot council as being bad,unfair,biased etc.

I personally dislike loot systems that are prioritized around attendance. Just because some nerd can show up 100% everyday and perform bad doesn't mean they should get loot over someone who has like 95% attendance but has the best performance in your raid. I've been in this situation before and I had to leave a guild over it. I couldn't deal with the fact it was impossible to catch up on the loot currency or make every raid(Missed 1 raid every 2 weeks) and that was the difference between a poorly skilled player getting loot over myself.

[Ciah]

Loot Council is great. If you don't like the Loot Council then what are you doing in the guild anyway, just leave.

For PUGs I prefer just rolling. If it was a group of people I knew I might do Suicide Kings as it's technically a much better system but... that's not typically the case.

[Brett Skullcrack]

Why aren't a council of people able to reduce their analysis or "Deflate" to something similiar to an EPGP system? It seems impossible for you to even imagine a system where either A. council system is run systematically just like any other mechanistic system or B. A group of people are capable in any way to make optimal decisions, and even forget optimal you seem to imply they cannot with any bit of consistency make good decisions. You eliminate all of this a priori. You can even use counciling to decide loot for optimality outside the system of EPGP. So if the council feels it is an inappropriate win inside the system of EPGP, it can be given in name of optimality by counciling it to someone else. EPGP "with" council if you will.

Because people are, by definition, subjective. If you managed to get a council that is completely systematic and objective, then what's the point of having one when you could just build a DKP system that does exactly the same thing much faster? The reality is, of course, that councils are never systematic or objective, nor do they have all the information required to make the right decision. Or are you telling me your council theorycrafted and simulated all my gear and considered all my gearing options and talked to me about which options I would be following? Because I did, and if your council didn't it is in no position to make loot decisions on my behalf.

Citations? Proof? Just plain bullshitting and macho posturing?

Councils, like I said, are subjective, non transparent and inefficient (both in terms of time it takes to get a decision and the accuracy of the decisions). I would NEVER join a guild with council since I would have no way to know what the loot distribution is beforehand. On the other hand, with any other mechanism discussed here you know exactly what the loot distribution will be beforehand and you can decide whether you believe that system is fair or not. They also have a variety of other properties that make them superior to councils, such as no chance of corruption and the ability to influence people's behavior (people know how their actions will affect their incoming loot beforehand).

Too complex for what? Humans? My old guild used to run it with ease. Too complex in general? Speak for yourself many guilds run it.

Too complex in the sense that simpler systems can solve the problem.

[Blayzee]

We use EPGP, i think its the best way as its fair. But we do sometimes give prioity to those who have lower gear like loot council. I.e. the other on chogall my shoulder dropped. I was in blue and everyone else already had epics to i got them!