Valonia & Theralion 10 HC - Tipps

[Newti]

We are 6/13 hc and would like to start on Valonia and her Brother this weekend. We got 3-4 tries in yesterday to see whats going on and we had to realize that we don't really understand the fight as we should. There is very little information around on the current state of this boss (after all the nerfs) so I decided to come here with a few very specific questions that I hope some people with experience can answer:

1. I've seen it done with 1 or 2 tanks. When trying him (we managed to live for 1 full circle) we did not see how a 2nd tank would be beneficial. Our tank simply heroic leaps to a portal and phases in again to tank Theralion. Why is a 2nd tank beneficial and would you suggest using 1 or 2 tanks?

2. What's going on in the Twilight realm? We figured we have to kill some adds... but the rest is in the dark. How many dps/heal/tanks would you suggest to go down? Which classes are preferred?

3. How many adds do you have to kill in the twilight realm?

4. What do you have to watch out for when going down & up to not die (apart from the obvious bombs)? One of our players clamined he takes damage from the void zones that spawned in the real realm... or how do you avoid being spawned into a void zone when you click the portal?

5. We bunch up everyone (excpet 2 healers) for blackout and heal the person affected to trigger it. Is that the optimal way to handle it? Should only 3-4 bunch up? Can it be dispelled some way or do you have to "heal it away"?

6. What is the setup in phase 2? 1-x people are in the twilight realm, how should the rest be positioned? We had 2 DKs stand at the tail of the boss and everyone with a meteor just ran there to split it with 3 players. The rest spread out... How did you set up in phase 2?

Thanks for reading and hopefully helping us getting a grip on this boss
Much appreciated!

[Viros]

We are 6/13 hc and would like to start on Valonia and her Brother this weekend. We got 3-4 tries in yesterday to see whats going on and we had to realize that we don't really understand the fight as we should. There is very little information around on the current state of this boss (after all the nerfs) so I decided to come here with a few very specific questions that I hope some people with experience can answer:

1. I've seen it done with 1 or 2 tanks. When trying him (we managed to live for 1 full circle) we did not see how a 2nd tank would be beneficial. Our tank simply heroic leaps to a portal and phases in again to tank Theralion. Why is a 2nd tank beneficial and would you suggest using 1 or 2 tanks?

2. What's going on in the Twilight realm? We figured we have to kill some adds... but the rest is in the dark. How many dps/heal/tanks would you suggest to go down? Which classes are preferred?

3. How many adds do you have to kill in the twilight realm?

4. What do you have to watch out for when going down & up to not die (apart from the obvious bombs)? One of our players clamined he takes damage from the void zones that spawned in the real realm... or how do you avoid being spawned into a void zone when you click the portal?

5. We bunch up everyone (excpet 2 healers) for blackout and heal the person affected to trigger it. Is that the optimal way to handle it? Should only 3-4 bunch up? Can it be dispelled some way or do you have to "heal it away"?

6. What is the setup in phase 2? 1-x people are in the twilight realm, how should the rest be positioned? We had 2 DKs stand at the tail of the boss and everyone with a meteor just ran there to split it with 3 players. The rest spread out... How did you set up in phase 2?

Thanks for reading and hopefully helping us getting a grip on this boss
Much appreciated!

1) You can use 1 tank, but your tank has to be very fast and it leaves less room for error. Having 2 tanks gives you more flexibility, just in case maybe the twilight realm needs help killing the adds, the tank can stay there for a bit.

2) There are adds there casting bolts that are shooting people in the normal realm. The more adds there, the more damage there will be in the normal realm, until the healers are overwhelmed and everyone dies. On 10man heroic, if you have a Rogue, he can solo it. Make him go Subt, pick up ALL the defensive/self-healing talents and make sure he has a shadow protection buff. If he keeps up Recup 100% and knows when to reset his stacks with Cloak, then he can stay there alone for a pretty long time. When he's taking too much damage, he'll come back up and get healed, then go back down next chance he gets.

3) Kill all of them preferably, they will keep spawning.

4) Just communication... make sure Dazzling Destruction isn't going on while people are moving from the Twilight Realm to the normal realm.

5) In 4.1 you can dispel it, now though you have to heal it. It's best to let everyone who is available (people who don't have any bad debuffs like Engulfing Magic) stack up, just to have less stress on the healers. Better to have more people take less damage instead of less people take more damage.

6) That's the same positioning we have. Boss in the middle, melee at the tail, ranged/healers spread around, the person who gets meteor runs to melee and then runs back out to his position after the meteor. 1 person in the Twilight Realm if it is a Rogue.

[Xcuse]

Just a note because people were screwing us over for a little while because of this:

In the Twillight Realm you have to be killing the Twillight Sentrys. There is another kind of add (Twilight Fiend?) which is the mob that spawms the portals back up all over the place. If you kill them you might severly lack portals at one point, making it very hard for your tank and the rogue to get back up.

Also once your rogue is down in the Twillight Realm you have a player less to soak the Blackout, so make sure you have an additional healer stand in. If anyone can immune the Blackout away (Cloak, Iceblock ,Bubble, Cauterize, Cheat Death) tell them to do so on the 2nd / 3rd / 4th time in phase 1 - just make sure they get away of anyone and go use their ability. And make sure you heal the Mage if he has to Cauterize the Blackout...
People in my raid (25m mind you) were reporting that Cheat Death and Cauterize don't work on the first Blackout of the fight (right after the pull) but they work on any other Blackouts - Bubble and Iceblock can be used on the first one but should be safed for later on because healing will be more intensive.

[Deleted]

For 10m raids that don't have a rogue to cheese it:

1. My group used 2 tanks. The advantage is simple: control. If you take just 1 tank that one needs to be fast and you have lots of room where he could be out of healing range or otherwise get spiked to death. 2 tanks also means twice the cooldowns which help loads on specific points in the fight.

2. As the posters above said, a rogue makes this fight laughably easy. But without a rogue it becomes interesting. What you want to do is kill as many adds as possible. They keep spawning throughout the fight.
What is happening is that dragonkin spawn in the twilight that start shooting at people in the "normal" realm. They appear as blue balls in the normal realm so you can see where they are. They can only be hurt in the twilight realm and they won't fight back.
In the Twilight realm there is environmental damage that increases with the stackable debuff it leaves. There are also moving balls there, touch one and you get a nasty explosion that pretty much oneshots you if you have 10+ debuff stacks.
Also note that in the twilight you still get hit by void zones and Fabulous Flames so you need to coordinate and communicate that (loads of trial and error).

My raids send 2 dps and 1 healer up when a tank gets ported. Due to the 2 min timer on the debuff you need alternating groups. If you have any choice, at least send people up that can strip debuffs. Aside from rogues we used our mage and pala's cooldowns to strip debuffs and stay longer in the twilight to kill adds.

3. Kill as many adds as you can, but leave when the debuff stacks up too high (In our attempts and kill we had people moving to and clicking portals after 15 stacks, though it's possible to survive even up to 25 if the healer popped CD's). The first group in our case almost always cleared the few adds up there and waited for new spawns. We started using the Dazzling's to port up instead of the tank-port because the Dazzlings were a few seconds later so more adds could spawn.

4. In the twilight realm you can see void zones, and get hurt by them. You need to watch for the stackable debuff, if it gets too high, you die.
Oh in the twilight you can also get targeted by Englufing as well as Blackout. Englufing in twilight is nice as dps, but if you zone back make sure you're not standing near others. Blackout in twilight is really really bad, meaning that person needs to portal out and run to the raidgroup. This means both 1 person less in twilight to kill adds (or heal the dps!) as well as taking much longer for the person to get to the group. We wiped at least 2 times due to our healer getting Blackout while in Twilight.

5. We bunch up everyone around for Blackouts, including healers. At some point in the fight this will be just 7 people due to to others still being in Twilight, we used Aura Mastery for that one iirc.
There will be loads of raid damage, especially near the end when there are more adds up then a group can kill off so reducing any big hits that could reduce someone to 10% or crucial. If you only use 3-4 people for Blackout soaking they will go down so low that your healers will probable not be able to keep them alive.

6. We had our 1 melee stand with the tanks and the rest spread out. When someone got a meteor he would run in for the hit and asap back out after. You only have 3 people in the twilight realm (4 with the tank, though the tank should go out much earlier) at the start of P2, they will need to move out eventually.


My raidgroup's first kill from last night was recorded, you can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOPuLK014EI&hd=1. No music, just vent voices .

[Wilderness]

We are 6/13 hc and would like to start on Valonia and her Brother this weekend. We got 3-4 tries in yesterday to see whats going on and we had to realize that we don't really understand the fight as we should. There is very little information around on the current state of this boss (after all the nerfs) so I decided to come here with a few very specific questions that I hope some people with experience can answer:

1. I've seen it done with 1 or 2 tanks. When trying him (we managed to live for 1 full circle) we did not see how a 2nd tank would be beneficial. Our tank simply heroic leaps to a portal and phases in again to tank Theralion. Why is a 2nd tank beneficial and would you suggest using 1 or 2 tanks?

2. What's going on in the Twilight realm? We figured we have to kill some adds... but the rest is in the dark. How many dps/heal/tanks would you suggest to go down? Which classes are preferred?

3. How many adds do you have to kill in the twilight realm?

4. What do you have to watch out for when going down & up to not die (apart from the obvious bombs)? One of our players clamined he takes damage from the void zones that spawned in the real realm... or how do you avoid being spawned into a void zone when you click the portal?

5. We bunch up everyone (excpet 2 healers) for blackout and heal the person affected to trigger it. Is that the optimal way to handle it? Should only 3-4 bunch up? Can it be dispelled some way or do you have to "heal it away"?

6. What is the setup in phase 2? 1-x people are in the twilight realm, how should the rest be positioned? We had 2 DKs stand at the tail of the boss and everyone with a meteor just ran there to split it with 3 players. The rest spread out... How did you set up in phase 2?

Thanks for reading and hopefully helping us getting a grip on this boss
Much appreciated!

Ah, this fight is so easy at this point. All you need is a good Sub rogue. Have him spec into all the healing and survivability talents so he can last a long time in the twilight realm and you are pretty much good to go.

1. A 2nd tank isn't needed, but you are going to need a dps who can tank for a little bit (we use a cat druid who just goes bear for those few seconds). Yes, with perfect execution and set-up your tank will be up very quickly but you will still probably need someone to take a hit or two at the least and if something goes wrong in the twlight realm (takes longer than usual, or tank fucks up and dies) then you'll have someone who can hold on until the tank can get back or be b-rezzed.

2. A Sub Rogue. Get one, get him specced for survivability, and then laugh as the other 9 of you essentially do the normal mode fight. Throw a shield or earth shield on him before he goes down and he can stay down there for a loooooooong time. Just kill as many adds as he can while down there, and when he has to come up for heals, then he goes back down as soon as he can again. Rinse and repeat for him.

3. As many as possible.

4. You do take damage down there from everything in the physical realm, but you can see everything as well. Getting hit by the dazzling destructions while down there is a 1-shot. You can get hit by one orb but 2 will kill you and even 1 shortens your time down there by quite a bit so you really have to avoid it. I believe you also take damage from the void zones that spawn underneath people as well, but the rogue won't see those coming so they just have to react quickly and move out of it. They should be able to see the void zones so they'll know if a portal is in the middle of one and should avoid that if they can. If not they'll just have to leave earlier so they have more health and can survive while they move out of it. Your healers do need to be on the ball and heal the rogue up as soon as he comes back up, since he could get hit by a twilight blast or a meteorite or whatever. Be sure to call out where Valiona's deep breaths will be since the rogue has no way of seeing that and it can hit him down there.

5. It cannot be dispelled (right now, that changes with 4.1 I believe) so you have to heal it away. We always have everyone stack up, healers included, because once you have your rogue in the twilight realm the damage can be pretty high. Especially when you get that third Blackout at the end of the 2nd Valiona phase there's already been a lot of damage taken and that was always the riskiest time for us so I think that having people intentionally stand out would probably have wiped us most of the time. Pre and post blackout popping there never really is a whole ton of damage so having your healers spend a second or two to move should not be an issue.

6. That's how we do that phase as well. The Rogue should be down in twilight, all the ranged/heals spreads out, and whoever gets the meteor just runs it in to the tank. We have to have our DK right by the tank since they are the only two in melee but if you have two dps DKs then having people run into them should be fine as well.

[Xcuse]

1. A 2nd tank isn't needed, but you are going to need a dps who can tank for a little bit (we use a cat druid who just goes bear for those few seconds). Yes, with perfect execution and set-up your tank will be up very quickly but you will still probably need someone to take a hit or two at the least and if something goes wrong in the twlight realm (takes longer than usual, or tank fucks up and dies) then you'll have someone who can hold on until the tank can get back or be b-rezzed.

You're making it sound like the tank loses aggro once he gains his 5th stack (and enters the twillight realm) - but this is not true. The drake is still gonna be hitting on you as long as no one taunts off (or you lose aggro) - so if you can coordinate where the tank should enter so he can get right back up you shouldn't need a second tank. Obviously the tank has to use a major cooldown as he enters the twillight realm as he cannot be healed for a few seconds and heals that were being cast get interrupted.

I actually solo-tanked the last 30% of our 2nd heroic kill on 25m

[Wilderness]

You're making it sound like the tank loses aggro once he gains his 5th stack (and enters the twillight realm) - but this is not true. The drake is still gonna be hitting on you as long as no one taunts off (or you lose aggro) - so if you can coordinate where the tank should enter so he can get right back up you shouldn't need a second tank. Obviously the tank has to use a major cooldown as he enters the twillight realm as he cannot be healed for a few seconds and heals that were being cast get interrupted.

I actually solo-tanked the last 30% of our 2nd heroic kill on 25m

You are right, he doesn't lose aggro and perhaps my post did imply that, which is incorrect. But it just seems like you are making things more difficult on you if you single tank it while you are progressing on the fight. It adds another layer of difficulty and another area where things can go wrong or damage can pile up unnecessarily. Since you said you solo-tanked it only for the last 30% than I would assume your other tank died so you know that it can happen, particularly when everyone is still learning since mistakes will happen. Had your other tank been solo-tanking it from the start then you'd have wiped at 30%.

Having someone to taunt the boss while the tank gets ported and gets back also keeps the same positioning and just makes for a smoother transition. Clearly it can be done but I wouldn't say that it is optimal for a group that is progressing on the fight.

[Zene]

Keep seeing lots of, 10man, send 1 sub rogue in. What 25man strats are there for this? Send a team down?

[MAGAmobile]

10 man you would send 1 rogue. 25 you would send 2-3. The results are pretty much the same unless you have the gear to zerg them down.

[Hottie4Hire]

From reading this it sounds fairly easy. So my next question is, is this able to be done as one of the first few hardmodes you do, or should you still wait until like 6-7.

[Deleted]

From reading this it sounds fairly easy. So my next question is, is this able to be done as one of the first few hardmodes you do, or should you still wait until like 6-7.

I'd stay still wait till 6-7 - The healing can get a little insane, and dps requirements aren't that low.

[Deleted]

From reading this it sounds fairly easy. So my next question is, is this able to be done as one of the first few hardmodes you do, or should you still wait until like 6-7.

With a specced rogue it's fairly easy, though everyone still needs decent gear to make up for the extra raid damage and increased dps needs. I'd still say do the usual first 4 HM's (Halfus, Chim, Mal, Atra) before this one, even if just to get some experience with the increased needs for hard modes.

Without a rogue it's pretty hard. It was our 6th heroic kill, and the hardest we've done so far. Need pretty solid gear to survive and beat the dps requirements. The usual 4 HM's are all easier and my group did Magmaw after that. Conclave and Al'Akir are possibly easier as well.

[Llyth]

On our first kill we opted for flexibility, used two tanks and had everyone stacks onto them for blackout/meteor. We also had our only melee stand on the tanks for every theralion phase, to make meteorites laughable. Additionally, I can recommend having set positions for every ranged member. It helped us a bunch.

As for twilight, we have our rogue with double mending, fully defensive sub spec etc stay in there the whole fight, never coming back up unless he fucks up. If that happens, we start sending in tanks.