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  1. #1

    Important Disc Question regarding Renew

    So i know discipline priests aren't picking up renew talents/glyph because POH can do the job better, my question is however... last night i was doing some experimenting and i have something to propose to see if anyone can do up some math to find out if renew in this sense is better than POH please read before posting and please post intelligent posts to help figure out because i think i'm onto something that really can help.

    so i run 10man raids, and we have a shaman dropping 5% haste totem, and my warlocks giving me DI, don't post about how he shouldn't be giving me DI because of BLAH BLAH BLAH reason that's not what this is for. so given this thats 8% haste. i'm stacking around 1500+ haste at the moment, and i just noticed that when i pop PI on myselft, my renews are now gaining 6 ticks per renew. when i pop PI + Bubble and gain Borrowed Time, i can lay out 3 Renews that gain 7 Ticks. yes 7 ticks, this is up from a normal renew that does 4 Ticks.

    my question is, are 3 7tick renews + rest 6tick renews, in Inner Will + glyph of renew and talent points into Imp Renew, worth it over PoH spamm Mana per Heal and HPS if someone can give me statistics on this, i know that in holy renew is better than PoH spam if you can't hit 4+ targets with a PoH as long as you have 5tick renews... but 6 and 7tick renews?? this seems incredibly beneficial and seems as though this will beat out PoH in a heartbeat.

    also if you can take into account i have DI on me, and that renew can procc DA's as well.

    so thats 1500ish haste + 5% totem + 3% DI+ PI + BT = 3 7tick renews, then when BT drops off rest 6tick renews until PI drops off... is this better when glyphed and specced and in inner will, than the same hasted POH spam in InnerFire? is my question and math to support it if someone can. Thank you

  2. #2
    More worried about the manacost than anything else. Perhaps it will do equal or more hps than PoH, but you'd be burning a lot more mana.

  3. #3
    If you can be patient this will work. But it will take you 4-5 seconds before renew applied to the last target in the group. Then another 12 seconds before they receive all the healing. If you just use 2-3 Prayer of Healing you will do that amount of healing in <6 seconds and not run the risk of a dps dying because they need to wait 17 seconds to receive their heals.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Qynix's Avatar
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    you can also just give them all a bubble

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by oatmealpoet View Post
    If you can be patient this will work. But it will take you 4-5 seconds before renew applied to the last target in the group. Then another 12 seconds before they receive all the healing. If you just use 2-3 Prayer of Healing you will do that amount of healing in <6 seconds and not run the risk of a dps dying because they need to wait 17 seconds to receive their heals.
    agreed. The heals from those renews are mostly likely going to get sniped and end up overhealing, which isnt a bad thing, but perhaps not the best investment of those 6ish seconds.

    If OP was raiding 25mans this would be a much more useful technique I feel. Since you raid 10mans, the only situation I could think where this would be worth it would be feuds on Chimaeron and pre crackles on Nef.

  6. #6
    I use this spec in 10 man raids. I will switch out the renew glyph for the PoH glyph depending on the fight. EJ gives a list of haste values for 6 ticks. I use IW instead of IF for most of the fights, I keep my spirit under 2K, have no mana problems and usually double the output of the other 2 healers or if 2 healing I will have about 30-50% higher hps. Stacking the haste to get an extra (6th) renew tick also means you will get an extra tick from HoH and DH. (PI/BT for DH will give 2 extra ticks). The main advantage of specing/glyphing into renew is the HPS/HPM on the tanks, and how efficient it is with IW, the rest of the raid is just a bonus. In 25 mans glyphs like Barrier and PoH are nice because there are more people/groups so you get a bigger bang for your buck, but in 10 mans the value is diminished that is why renew is so great. The statement that renew will be mostly overhealing is false. On my logs renew's overhealing has never been over 30%. On a tank 6 ticks can get close to 30K including crits and DA's, a 7th tick around 35K, if you replace that spell with the GH the amount of cast time you save and mana you save really adds up. People who say don't spec/glyph renew raid either 25 mans or in their 10 mans they have never tried it, people who say to use it have tried it. But if you do decide to use it, make sure you use IW imo. GL

  7. #7
    Yeah, the concern I'd have is mana cost. Renew is nice because it give me something to do when I'm moving, WS is on the target I want to heal, and ProM is on CD. Until that mana cost decreases, however, you'd end up better served using PW:S preemptively if you want to burn some mana.

  8. #8
    i'm just thinking, (will have to do math when i get home), but... for a 7 tick renew, that alone is a 75% increase in the TOTAL amount that that renew heals if 0 overhealing... 6 tick renew is a 50% increase in total amount healed... combining that with glyph and talent points seems to boost the amount healed of this spell very far... given this, if you combine with innerwill it will decrease the amount healed a bit as compared to inner fire but your efficiency goes up to further benefit this... along with all of this, given you have this much haste your GCD will be much faster when applying the renews so you will be applying them much faster as well and get on back to normal heals after. after taking all of this into consideration

    the main question i need to find an answer for, (and i wont be able to until i do math tonight when i log on) is... will the mana per total amount healed with 5 renews, beat out the mana cost of how ever many POH's it takes to equal or get close to that amount of the 5 renews. i'm very interested to see what i come up with. i personally am thinking that it will be much more mana efficient to place renews on the targets and slowly heal them up if the damage incoming allows for this method than a POH spam back up to full.

    i guess what the math is going to be indicating is... the more haste that you get, does this increase the efficiency of POH as much that it increases the Efficiency of Renew, more, less? it seems that the more haste you have the more efficient Renew becomes as it's mana cost does not increase, where the more haste you stack for POH your just casting them faster, you don't get more bang (heals) for your buck (mana) where renew, the number of ticks increases (heals) while mana cost stays the same

    i will post back after looking into it more tonight
    Last edited by blitzkrieg3002; 2011-03-30 at 07:46 PM.

  9. #9
    As a conjectural guess, I think you'll find PoH to be more efficient, even taking into consideration BT renews, if and only if for the auto DA [assuming you take the time to maintain them until the next hit].

    The biggest issue I see with trying to use renew as a "go to" for disc is you pretty much have to choose between PW:S & Renew as your "heavy hitter." It just seems to flow a bit better using PW:S precasted, then using PoH & Penance to clean up, rather than PW:S precasted into reactive renews [which I don't even think would be sustainable for very long].

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Fulltimejoke's Avatar
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    There's some good info in here, keep it up guys I gotta mention that I find Inner Will + Renew combo to work pretty well myself, especially in those heavy aoe fights where you can't really afford to stand still (due to fire, etc.) and spam PoH. So I pre-shield where needed (usually tank) and try to get a quick PoH off before BT runs out, then while DA is up put out 2-3 renews until I can stop and cast again. I don't have Renew glyphed or talented, but it easily accounts for 12-15%+ of my overall healing at the end of a run sometimes. Makes me wonder about incorporating it into my AA/smite spec, glyphed and talented, might could make for an interesting raid healer build with a good amount of haste.

  11. #11
    anyone know how much Haste PI adds?, i don't think increasing casting speed by 20% means it adds 20% haste... my math isn't adding up

    ---------- Post added 2011-03-30 at 02:45 PM ----------

    ahh nvm i figured it out, forgot haste is multiplative, not additive

  12. #12
    Not to mention the GCDs that are required for the same HPS. 3 renew GCDs that can only reach the same HPS if you have BT+PI up, or 1 PoH anytime? I'd go with PoH.

  13. #13
    i feel that some aren't understanding my point, like i said i will post back with the math but basically what i'm trying to find out is, at how much haste is renew more mana efficient than PoH. it's not a matter of IF but a matter of What, because it is 100% fact that AT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF HASTE renew becomes more mana efficient than PoH and i'm trying to figure out how much haste that is...

    Renew - (the more haste you have the more ticks on renew you get, this means that the more haste you have the more renew HEALS THE TARGET, so at the same mana price the higher the haste the more it heals) stretch to the extreme to show you what i'm talking about. if i had 87.5% haste this means my renew will tick on the target 8 total times... this means that a renew that heals 12,000 damage over its period of 4 ticks normally will now heal a total of 24,000 damage over its period of 8 ticks. doubling the amount it heals for the SAME PRICE IN MANA. (these numbers are just thrown out like i said, no idea how much my renew heals for at the moment). now weather or not all 8 ticks actaully heal the target or go toward overhealing is another question to be asked, as i need to do the math to find out the duration of this number of ticks. etc.

    PoH - (the more haste you have the heal heals the same amount but you can cast it faster) so if a POH heals 5 targets if their in range for 35,000 TOTAL, at 87.5% haste it heals all 5 targets if their in range for 35,000 total, the amount does not increase for the same amount of mana... thus at SOME POINT no matter what, renew becomse a more mana efficient option.

    now is that number some unreachable 300+% haste? or a reachable 70% haste? some may ask is this reachable? yes indeed it is with cooldowns... which brings me to my next statement.

    all of this boils down to, what spells to use for most mana efficiency during certain cooldowns. in our case being BT and PI... if during these cooldowns it is more mana efficient to cast Renews rather than POH that is something i'd like to know, and that is what i'm here trying to find out.

  14. #14
    That's a fairly complicated craft b/c you need to factor GoPoH, mastery, crit, DA, PoH "double dip" DA on crit, and haste. I understand what you are getting at, but I feel that the haste benchmark you are looking for is pretty darn steep [could be wrong, just a guess at this point w/ head math].

    If I have a chance, I'll try to math it out today or tomorrow, including all the factors presented.

  15. #15
    The basic HPM comparison is if you cast 5 renews, you can get 2.45 PoH casts for the same mana cost. So if you get more healing out of 5 renews than 2.45 PoHs it's better.

    Typical numbers for PoH might be 7k + 1.4k (glyph) heal, plus 2.8k DA proc giving 11.2k overall. Crits would then be 10.5k + 2.1k heal and 8.4k DA for 21k. So with a 25% crit rate you have an average of 13.65k per target.

    If you cast that 2.45 times you get 33.44k healing per target, so your renew is better than PoH when it does 33.44k healing over time. If you have a 7 tick renew you'd have to be averaging 4.78k per tick for this to be the case, which it won't be if you PoH is 7k average.

    So from those numbers, I think with a 7 tick renew PoH is still quite a bit better in HPM terms. Given typical renew tick values you're probably looking at 9 ticks before renew becomes worth it.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferin View Post
    The basic HPM comparison is if you cast 5 renews, you can get 2.45 PoH casts for the same mana cost. So if you get more healing out of 5 renews than 2.45 PoHs it's better.

    Typical numbers for PoH might be 7k + 1.4k (glyph) heal, plus 2.8k DA proc giving 11.2k overall. Crits would then be 10.5k + 2.1k heal and 8.4k DA for 21k. So with a 25% crit rate you have an average of 13.65k per target.









    If you cast that 2.45 times you get 33.44k healing per target, so your renew is better than PoH when it does 33.44k healing over time. If you have a 7 tick renew you'd have to be averaging 4.78k per tick for this to be the case, which it won't be if you PoH is 7k average.

    So from those numbers, I think with a 7 tick renew PoH is still quite a bit better in HPM terms. Given typical renew tick values you're probably looking at 9 ticks before renew becomes worth it.
    i understand this, and this is basically the analysis i will do tonight, you must also remember like the above poster as well, renew also has a chance to crit and can procc da as well so all of this must be factored in... if your data is correct then i think i'll be dissapointed tonight :[ . but heh it was worth a try, and also could be situational and good to know knowledge for that reason as well, because there may be times that will allow for slow heal up where a DA would be useless... just like there will be times where a slow heal up will be useless and a DA more affective so the knowledge may be worthwhile for situations. i'll report back later with my results

  17. #17
    As disc, what is Renew?

  18. #18
    Get one of these for renew, the 10 seconds of haste on a one minute cooldown wouldn't be too shabby either.

    http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/60233/shard-of-woe/

  19. #19
    The thing to remember with DA and renew is that it's normal procs whereas PoH double dips on crits and procs it on non-crit. That gives PoH a huge throughput boost over the raw healing numbers.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Afflictid View Post
    As disc, what is Renew?
    Its like holy's only it heals for more and has faster GCD.

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