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  1. #1

    Another Split Raid Fix Thread

    Split raiding. A problem which only affects maybe %0.10 of the player base. However, I feel it is an issue which is important to look into. There are countless reasons for why players would not want to take part in raiding at the top level. Crazy hours, doing tons of research on bosses/classes, prioritizing the game over things in real life (in some cases), etc. Hardcore raiding seems to be on a bit of a decline lately. So, I believe that being able to eliminate one of those deterrents (split raids) can, even if just by a little bit, aid in increasing interest in hardcore raiding, so that this part of the game continues to thrive.

    Most of the time when threads like this one pop up, people present possible gameplay changes that would discourage guild from doing split run, like personal loot only for Heroic mode or loot lockout across all characters. The problem with these suggestions is that they not only effect the guilds doing the split raids, but also the general player base. We need to first think about the reason split raids are done in the first place. The answer to which is: to gain an edge over the competition. So, this issue is rooted in the competition. Instead of changing the game's rules to fix the competition, change the rules of the competition. How will/can this be done? Well there are a few ways I can think of, but they all involve progression tracking sites like Wowprogress.

    Wowprogress has influence over the progression race. We saw this in action in the beginning of Warlords with them disqualifying guilds who abused the BMAH. Now, i'm not calling for the site to disqualify guilds who choose to participate in split raids, but instead, make a separate bracket. This way, if guilds wish to be part of the main race, they won't do split raids. And those who opt to continue to do split raids will be grouped with only those who are also doing split raids. Now the question is: how would you know which guilds are doing split runs and which aren't? Well, one way to track this would be to check loot distribution among the raid (on heroic, of course) to see what percent of the raid is getting loot, and look at the Ilvl of those who are getting loot. If 100% loot is going to ~20% of the raid and those in that 20% are already higher Ilvl than the rest of the raid, you can be fairly sure that gear is being funneled to those specific people. Also, this system could just be in place for the first 2-4 week of progression, since this is just meant for those taking part in the competition.

    Anyways, this is just an idea. It obviously isn't perfect; there are probably parts of it that could be tweaked. But, it is a starting point, and I think the more we talk about it, we can build upon our ideas and create a solution.

    TL;DR: Make different brackets for those who do split raids and those who don't.
    Last edited by Twilight Cultist; 2015-12-28 at 02:24 AM.

  2. #2
    last time we did a split bracket was for 10/25m progression, and guess what happened ? the issue is real but spliting the race isn't going to solve it

  3. #3
    Pretty sure most people are already in their own little bubble like two and a half raid days with 1h pause each running less than 10 ranged in the oceanic region or whatever the fuck. Blabla slippery slope sure but seriously what's the point of that. the main race - you really think anyone gives a flying fuck about being the fiftieth guild killing the endboss because you raided only 4 days a week even during the release week or or two weeks after the actual world first kill without split raids ?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by cFortyfive View Post
    Pretty sure most people are already in their own little bubble like two and a half raid days with 1h pause each running less than 10 ranged in the oceanic region or whatever the fuck. Blabla slippery slope sure but seriously what's the point of that. the main race - you really think anyone gives a flying fuck about being the fiftieth guild killing the endboss because you raided only 4 days a week even during the release week or or two weeks after the actual world first kill without split raids ?
    If the main race (without split raids) were displayed on the from page and the other bracket was on a different tab, I think it would have an impact. I feel it would make split raiding be perceived as less legit, and therefore a different race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fynzie View Post
    last time we did a split bracket was for 10/25m progression, and guess what happened ? the issue is real but spliting the race isn't going to solve it
    When there were different brackets for 10 and 25 man, they were considered (by most, especially among the top guilds) to be 2 different races. Which is what my idea is intended to do.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Frolk's Avatar
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    If ur in the top 0.1% of raiders, splitraiding shouldt be a problem for u, if it, maybe u should find something less hardcore, like knitting

    And ur fix, no. If it was an actual issue Blizz would deal with it in someway, but they havnt, so its not an actual issue.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    If ur in the top 0.1% of raiders, splitraiding shouldt be a problem for u, if it, maybe u should find something less hardcore, like knitting

    And ur fix, no. If it was an actual issue Blizz would deal with it in someway, but they havnt, so its not an actual issue.
    Split raiding isn't fun. I recall many top players saying they don't enjoy it, but they pretty much have no choice if they want to stay competitive. If there were a way to end it, i'm pretty sure no one would be upset. It would just make raiding more enjoyable all around. Also, Blizzard has talked about wanting to fix split raiding numerous times, even at this years Blizzcon. They just don't know a way to do it without affecting non-hardcore players.
    Last edited by Twilight Cultist; 2015-12-28 at 03:53 AM.

  7. #7
    There has been solid suggestions in the other threads. Even small things as merging Normal / Heroic Lockout helps a lot already. Locking Characters into next week's mythic lockout during heroic raiding for 1 or 2 weeks at the start of the tier was my personal favorite.
    Your way of chosing to split raid or chosing not to split raid works against the original purpose of the introduction of 20 man mythic raiding: Creating an equal playing field for everybody competing. I personally don't think anything remotely close to what you suggested will ever be introduced.

  8. #8
    Require personal loot for the first 4 weeks when a new instance opens. Problem solved!

    And don't give me that BS about making clones and hoping that one of them gets lucky. That's 5x the effort to get maybe 15-20% more loot, instead of 5x the effort to get 300%+ more loot. It reduces the payoff by an order of magnitude, to the point that it's almost certainly better to focus on farming legendaries for your one main.

  9. #9
    I don't personally like the idea of solving the issue via third party website offering different brackets, unrealistic, people won't care enough about the non-split raider bracket imo since they will be so far behind the split bracket. 1) because of gear and 2) the better guilds will split raid regardless of this bracket existing or not.

    Agree with Casa but if they stick with stuff like super powerful class trinkets that exist with archimonde you might be forced to use the toon that gets the trinket on PL, but as you say the payoff is still a lot less than the current split raiding technique.

  10. #10
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    I still would just leave it alone and stop accounting split-raiding in their content design.
    Split raiding is a <0.1% thing, so why not ignore it when designing loot systems and drop rates?

    Accounting for it (forced PL, accwide saves etc) only punished 99.9% of regular players.
    727 BM hunter @ 2/13 Mythic. EU-Silvermoon
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight Cultist View Post
    Split raiding. A problem which only affects maybe %0.10 of the player base. However, I feel it is an issue which is important to look into. There are countless reasons for why players would not want to take part in raiding at the top level. Crazy hours, doing tons of research on bosses/classes, prioritizing the game over things in real life (in some cases), etc. Hardcore raiding seems to be on a bit of a decline lately. So, I believe that being able to eliminate one of those deterrents (split raids) can, even if just by a little bit, aid in increasing interest in hardcore raiding, so that this part of the game continues to thrive.
    No, raiding is fine. The pool for hardcore raiding at now called mythic level was never bigger and it never will be. deal with it
    instead of fixing a none issue I want the devs to focus on more questing content.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    You seem to have a strong dislike of people that you deem inferior (based on whatever criteria) having the same things as you, even if they look slightly different and are much weaker than your version (ie LFR tier), based on some abstract concept that you "deserve" it and they do not, based again on some arbitrary criteria.

  12. #12
    Did Blizzard say anything about raid modes and the LFR yet?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Did Blizzard say anything about raid modes and the LFR yet?
    No info on any changes so propably it's staying as it is.
    My main concern is reverting LFR back to MOP state tho. Current LFR state is abysmal. LFR currently is a massive waste of time, as the gear it drops is shit (675-685), there are no tier piece bonuses and not even transmog value. You can join Ashran and snoop around for 2-3h to walk away with 710 epic and a good bouquet of 700s with good stats. As soon as you're about 690, you can just join HF Normal pugs to get your tomes, instead of bothering with LFR queues.
    727 BM hunter @ 2/13 Mythic. EU-Silvermoon
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  14. #14
    I hope they just bring back the old system that we had in Cataclysm. The WoD one is abysmal and everything would be better than what we have now.

  15. #15
    The Patient Feuerbart's Avatar
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    In the end there is no way to disable it. You could lessen the effect by personal loot for some weeks. But on the other side you give RNG a bigger say in the race. With that the guild with more luck in weapons and/or trinkets wins more. So mirror runs will be done to disable that rng the best they can. And when the chance is slimmer then now they will maybe even do more mirror runs to get that one toon right for the mythic race.

    Overall I think leave it be. Those with the drive will always find ways to be ahead of others. There is no solution that fits the whole gaming community.

  16. #16
    Mechagnome
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    This is a player made problem.

    I know this might annoy some players but I think it is the players that need to fix this.

    If we had a wowprogress site that could 100% detects guilds that do split raids and not count them in the progress OR count them in a separate progress; what would happen?

    I believe that as the game evolved we need a site that can with 100% accuracy give the following rankings:

    overall ranking of guilds not doing ANY split raids.
    overall ranking of guilds depending on strict number of raids per week.

    just my opinion, dont hate.

  17. #17
    It's a player made problem, simple as. The only difference it makes to the wider raiding community is forcing Blizzard to invent new more imaginative ways of dealing with split clears (staggered ilvl this tier was one such example). I'd rather it wasn't touched. If the hardcore raiding pool wishes to run an instance 10 times on 10 alts and dwindle the numbers, then let them. You have to do what you have to do to stay ahead in the race. Besides, Legion legendaries are probably going to have a far greater say than this for split clears. Only players and sites can really deal with this issue, nothing Blizzard can do will positively affect people much lower down the raiding chain.

  18. #18
    Split raiding when it's possible to move loot between raid members will always be a thing.

    If you want to fix it, 100% hard personal loot.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  19. #19
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight Cultist View Post
    Now the question is: how would you know which guilds are doing split runs and which aren't? Well, one way to track this would be to check loot distribution among the raid (on heroic, of course) to see what percent of the raid is getting loot, and look at the Ilvl of those who are getting loot. If 100% loot is going to ~20% of the raid and those in that 20% are already higher Ilvl than the rest of the raid, you can be fairly sure that gear is being funneled to those specific people. Also, this system could just be in place for the first 2-4 week of progression, since this is just meant for those taking part in the competition.
    You make it sound like its an easy thing to detect but that sounds like a nightmare for wowprogress to implement, track, and then deal with all the headaches surrounding it.

    And I don't think it would do anything to motivate guilds to not do it. All guilds that currently do it would still continue to do so, the only thing that would change is that there'd be a ranking for the guilds that don't - which might be nice for them, but it won't solve the problem you're trying to fix.
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  20. #20
    The Patient Pedrolo's Avatar
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    Again? It is simple, no one wins a race without training. Splits are the training in WoW. It is like asking to have a separate olympic games for racers who don't train, because, you know, training is boring and I just want to win.

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