Warlock Race Change

[nocturnus]

I'm already an orc, I told you.
Haste engineer tinker? I'm baffled by what that even means. The only engineer tinker I'm using is synapse springs, which is an intellect buff.

Hm... I meant cogwheel. I had no idea what those things were called, since it's a pretty useless profession from a PvE point-of-view. But I'm guessing and hoping for your sake, you already knew this.

None of the BiS sets are at ~2500 haste, so I don't understand why you're bringing them up.

The 372 BiS set has 2593 haste, so you're ill informed again. My reply to your post was written under the assumption that you have no idea how haste and dps sim mechanics work altogether. Therefore it should be understandable enough, even for you. Why are you pretending to miss the point?

The value of the 1% haste racial, is only increased because you're FORCING certain haste levels when you shouldn't. The 1% haste value is NOT increased when you look at the bigger picture: the dps you will ultimately do. Why? Because you will do MORE dps by straying from those haste values and itemizing correctly.

A recapitulation to avoid you "missing the point" again:
- Force the 7th tick and roll gobling does LESS dps than
- Not having the 7th tick, itemizing, gemming and enchanting correctly + being an orc.

These simple FACTS make the way you itemize redundant.

Always assuming this: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...arada/advanced is your armory (whether you're goblin or not).

Feel free to throw criticism by the way, I really don't mind. We'll see if you'll be able to pad the meters, when and especially if you'll ever do some actual HC content other than Halfuss ^^. In heroic content, you do what it takes, to best the encounter.

[nilnar]

Hm... I meant cogwheel. I had no idea what those things were called, since it's a pretty useless profession from a PvE point-of-view. But I'm guessing and hoping for your sake, you already knew this.

Useless from a PvE point of view? Synapse springs gives an average of 80 intellect, but you get to choose when to use it, just like the orc racial. Its only bested by tailoring as a PvE profession. And this isn't factoring in the goggles, which are an easy to achieve 359 epic that (not counting set bonuses) is considerably better than tier head or the awful head you're wearing yourself. You clearly don't understand how cogwheels work. They are in place of secondary stats. The best secondary stats we have are haste and hit. The socket bonus even means it gives more intellect than the tier head. I am amazed that you're trying to talk with authority on this when you're clearly not even slightly aware of what engineering brings.

BiS set has 2593 haste, so you're ill informed again. My reply to your post was written under the assumption that you have no idea how haste mechanics work altogether. Therefore it should be understandable enough, even for you. Why are you pretending to miss the point?

This is the stupidest thing you've written and clearly shows you've missed my point entirely. The non-goblin haste threshold is 2589 haste. The BiS list is very deliberately (and obviously) geared to be above this.

http://chardev.org/?profile=36761

This is the current BiS profile from the EJ simcraft thread. Look at the gems in belt, cloak and gloves. They are gemming for haste in sockets that give 10 rating bonuses in order to reach the haste threshold. Please THINK for a minute.

The reason I said ~2500 haste is because 2500 is between the two haste thresholds (the 2593 haste profile is NOT). An orc with ~2500 haste will not have a 7th tick, while a goblin will. This is a huge dps boost.



Again, talking about my gear in particular. I've said that its the best avialable to me and its all gemmed and reforged according to sims. There's nothing else to say. I'm doing it CORRECTLY. My dig at WoL was just a joke, hence the smilie. I'm in a very casual guild, and I don't even raid every week with them, my progression isn't really an issue here.. Besides, I'm kinda wrecking your normal mode WoL parses.

[Spiffums]

I loves me some Blood Elf.

It's why I started playing WoW in the 1st place. I saw that mini poster of a BE Pally. All my toons are BEs.

[nilnar]

To finally put an end to this argument and prove my point, I made 2 profiles, an orc and a goblin, based on the BiS 372 profile. I changed the gemming slightly so they are below the 2589 cap, but still above the 2439 cap. My settings don't match those that EJ uses, so the numbers are higher than they would reach, but the comparison is valid.

http://chardev.org/?profile=96676 - 2500hasteracetest_orc : 27838dps
http://chardev.org/?profile=96687 - 2500hasteracetest_goblin : 28160dps

This backs up my original point that if the goblin racial allows you to reach the 7 tick immolate threshold, then goblin is the superior race for your dps. Feel free to sim these profiles yourself if you still don't believe me.


As an interesting aside, I also came up with this 359 ilvl profile (legit 359, no 372 loot, using the same professions as the BiS profile) which actually sims substantially higher than the apparent BiS set by specifically aiming for the 2589 haste threshold.
http://chardev.org/?profile=96714

[nocturnus]

Its only bested by tailoring as a PvE profession.

And you're an engineer pretending to be a min/max pve player. Quite the paradox isn't it.

It's pretty ignorant to state the engineer's head is better than the tier head, because you can't compare items individually. Having the goggles unequivocally means not having tailoring and passing on the 4 set bonus. All of this, is a pretty significant loss of stats. No matter how zealously you preach these engineer "advantages".

he non-goblin haste threshold is 2589 haste. The BiS list is very deliberately (and obviously) geared to be above this.

An orc with ~2500 haste will not have a 7th tick, while a goblin will. This is a huge dps boost. Besides, I'm kinda wrecking your normal mode WoL parses.

Again, with the ridiculous reply to your own reply, you show to have failed to understand the very simple fact, that if you're close to the haste plateau (like you said ~2500) in 359 gear, you're NOT ITEMIZING YOUR TOON CORRECTLY. If you were, you wouldn't be anywhere near it, which would make the Goblin racials completely useless. You're also blatantly ignoring the FACT that reaching the plateau by other means, other than changing your race from Orc to Goblin, would result in even HIGHER results than the ones provided by your parses.

Your flawed formula:
Orc --> almost at plateau --> go Goblin
should be:
Orc --> almost at plateau --> change some enchants, gems etc...

Let's see if it pierces your dense skull this time.

I'll indulge you, show me your amazing normal mode parses ^^

[nilnar]

And you're an engineer pretending to be a min/max pve player. Quite the paradox isn't it.

I'm not pretending to be anything. I think you need to look at the dps benefit engineering brings - its as good as any profession other than tailoring (see synapse springs on wowhead if you're unsure on this point).

It's pretty ignorant to state the engineer's head is better than the tier head, because you can't compare items individually. Having the goggles unequivocally means not having tailoring and passing on the 4 set bonus. All of this, is a pretty significant loss of stats. No matter how zealously you preach these engineer "advantages".

I'm well aware that the set bonus makes the engineering goggles worse than the tier head. I said so in my post. That doesn't take away from the fact that its a better item individually - which means its better in all situations unless the head gives the 4set bonus. I'm not sure why you're so bothered about it though, its not even slightly relevant to the thread. There's also no reason at all why someone can't have tailoring AND engineering.

Again, with the ridiculous reply to your own reply, you show to have failed to understand the very simple fact, that if you're close to the haste plateau (like you said ~2500) in 359 gear, you're NOT ITEMIZING YOUR TOON CORRECTLY.

Check the chardev profile I linked in my last post. Its a legit 359 profile and it sims higher than the "BiS" list (by about 200 dps), due to hitting the haste threshold. EJ isn't infallable. Question and test what they do. Just because its posted there it doesn't mean its a FACT in big bold letters.

Your flawed formula:
Orc --> almost at plateau --> go Goblin
should be:
Orc --> almost at plateau --> change some enchants, gems etc...

Yeah, good point. I agree, and I considered making this point, but for simplicity's sake I didn't. I suspect that there is a point where haste is too low to gem/enchant for it, but the goblin racial will allow the char to reach the threshold (I'll maybe try chardevving and simming it tomorrow, but it'll take a while I suspect). My evidence doesn't prove it, but you're being very adamant about "facts" when you're presenting none of your own.

My original point was that if the goblin racial ALLOWS the player to hit the threshold, then its worth it. If you can do it by enchanting/gemming/reforging then the char is already able to get to the threshold, and its not really the racial allowing it. This isn't the case in the profiles I linked, they were just a demonstration of what happens at that haste level.

Let's see if it pierces your dense skull this time.

There's no need to be offensive, you weren't even close to making this point previously in the thread. You were unequivically stating that there's never a time for "forcing" the 7th tick by gemming and enchanting, but you've done a U-turn on that (which is great, you'll do better dps in future).

I'll indulge you, show me your amazing normal mode parses ^^

If I must. If its not obvious, I play affliction more these days, and certainly perfer it as a spec.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/11...kings/players/

[nocturnus]

but you've done a U-turn on that (which is great, you'll do better dps in future).

If you consider saying the same thing, but simplifying the semantics, a 'u-turn', sure, have at it.

There's nothing interesting about your logs. You're actually pretty low, considering you're doing normal content in epic gear. Meter padding too, tisk tisk, try that on heroic Omnotron will you. Our normal report are already expired, suffice it to say, most of us were in heroic dungeon gear when we did those.

Yeah, good point. I agree, and I considered making this point, but for simplicity's sake I didn't.

Okay then.

[nilnar]

You asked to see the logs so I posted them. I don't think there's anything interesting about them either, they're just logs. Meter padding? All the dps on omnotron counts. The people at the top of WoL rankings are not in blues, don't be petulant. Who cares that your guild is more progressed than my guild? It doesn't make you any more correct about anything. I'm only destro these days for atramedes, chimaeron and nefarian anyway, and you've got recent logs of nef and atramedes normal (on both of which I'm well ahead).

Jesus christ you're literally just trying to project fault on everything I've posted, and you're completely ignoring the points where I've very definitely proved you wrong. Your whole attitude towards engineering is just baffling, as its a strong profession for PvE, both for flat dps and for the fact that it helps gearing up.

- Force the 7th tick and roll gobling does LESS dps than Not having the 7th tick, itemizing, gemming and enchanting correctly + being an orc.

This is the point that you've done a U-turn on. The 372 BiS list clearly "forces" the extra tick and does more dps, as does using the racial to get the extra tick. Conceed the point. Grow up. At no point prior to your last post did you advocate gearing for the haste caps.

Start thinking about things and actually testing how things work with your own gear rather than looking at these ridiculous BiS lists that I've already shown aren't necessarily BiS.

[Tropos]

Go with female orc. hottest chicks in azeroth. no im not joking. they are the hottest.

This. -their head,but who cares?

[nocturnus]

The 372 BiS list clearly "forces" the extra tick and does more dps

Relax, stop making things personal. Jesus has nothing to do with this thread, nor has growing up.

We weren't discussing the 7th tick in heroic gear. It's a known fact the 7th tick is well worth gearing towards if heroic gear is accesible, because it's more realistic to reach those haste values without sacrificing other vital stats. You're forcing it at ilvl 359, which doesn't work for the best. Like I said, read the threads on it and you'll learn why. While you're at it, do some research on how they sim profiles at EJ. It will change your faulty perspective on things.

So yeah, there's no such thing as a change of heart, or "u-turn" as you describe it because I never said you shouldn't go for the haste plateau in 372 gear. Heck, I've been waiting for my last few haste items for ages now. Try getting your hands on a head tooken if you raid with 2 paladins and 3 priests.

Not all dps on Omnotron counts. Havoc-ing the non focussed target can cause a wipe and adds no value whatsoever.

Unfortunately, you haven't proven anything. Engineering, the goblin racial and forcing the 7th tick at ilvl 359 are still of lower value when you're min/maxing.

[Deleted]

Imo I'm playing as Goblin and I dont find any problems with it. I enjoy the race and I think It's important that you enjoy the race, It's a big part of the game if you ask me. It's also way easier to reach the 7 ticks for Immolate as Goblin if you dont have BiS gear and if you do w/e really. Passive haste buff>1 extra cd that fill your action bars...

Also I see many top raiders that choose Goblin over Orc so think It's up to you what you find more suiting for your gameplay.

[Deleted]

Well, I chose undead for the looks and of course coz I am a metalhead and the /dance for male undead rocks.

But still if I lvl a new warlock I'll always go for undead.

But, if ur really serious about it.

PvE and PvP wise Orcs also rule. Their pets are empowered and of course the stun resistance even if it's a small amount. But, also the extra trinket on use for more Spellpower.

Belfs are nice but for PvP mainly for the silence and the extra resistance on all schools of magic. You wont need their torrent for mana regen since u got Lifetap as a lock. But, might help IF (and notice it's a big IF) u r low on health and oom.

Undead as I mentioned earlier. If u think like I do.

Trolls are a new addition on CATA and they are not bad at all. The extra haste trinket is nice also since Haste became one of the primary stats for almost all warlock specs for the extra ticks.

Unfortunately there are no Tauren Warlocks in the game . Otherwise I'd lvl one TBH .

Goblins got the rockets, and the extra jump. But, I don't know if they are THAT good enough for pve or even pvp as a racial.

[nilnar]

Fun time to log on.

Engineering: Since patch 4.0.1, tinkers now stack with normal enchants. Synapse Springs tinker to gloves provides 480 Int for 10 seconds with a 60 second CD. This averages to an 80 Int bonus. Engineering also provides further perks such as [Flexweave Underlay]. [Nitro Boosts] and Grounded Plasma Shield have a chance to fail and cause serious adverse effects, and are not reliable in a raid situation.

Leatherworking: 130 Int to bracers in place of 50 Int, giving an estimated 80 Int bonus.

Jewelcrafting: 3 [Brilliant Chimera's Eye] in place of [Brilliant Inferno Ruby] gives 81 Int.

Blacksmithing: Extra sockets into wrists and gloves provides 2 additional Brilliant Inferno Ruby's, providing an 80 Int bonus.

Alchemy: Mixology, combined with [Flask of the Draconic Mind] provides an 80 Int bonus.

Enchanting: 40 Int to each ring provides an 80 Int bonus.

Inscription: 130 Int/25 haste shoulder enchant is an 80 Int bonus over the regular enchant.

Tailoring: Lightweave Embroidery gives 580 Int for 15 seconds on a 45 second ICD. This averages to 193.3 Int, which replaces the normal 50 Int enchant, providing only a 143.3 Int bonus. Tailoring currently gives the greatest DPS increase of all the professions.

Herbalism: Lifeblood is now a DPS cooldown providing 480 haste for 20 seconds on a 2 minute CD. This averages to an 80 haste bonus.

Skinning: 80 crit.

Mining: Stam, useless from a DPS perspective.

This is straight from EJ. Tailoring is clearly superior, I've agreed with that. The only other profession that seems to beat engineering is JC, by 1 intellect. The trade off is that engineering lets you use the proc with cooldowns to increase its value. I don't think you can say with any certainty that engineering is worse. The goggles are just a very relevant bonus for many players.

I'm just confused at why you think "gearing towards" the 7th tick is a bad thing. Haste is our second best secondary stat. Getting close to it just comes with the territory of picking gear with haste on it. Its literally a couple of items here or there that will get someone to the point where reforging/gemming IS worth it. You don't have to be in 372s for this to be worth it, I've simmed it plenty of times with haste coming out on top of intellect. I mean, if you took the halfus bracers, tier head and the V&T neck for instance, you're suddenly much much closer. For those without the bell trinket, there's a little more flexibility when it comes to hit rating, but surely you can see that its not a huge stretch for someone to get within gemming/enchanting range of the next haste threshold.

Feel free to sim the profile I linked against the BiS profile. I'm not really that keen on wasting my time trying to replicate EJ sims with arbitrary controls, I'm simming both as a control and any setting I've stuck in its come out on top by a considerable margin.