1. #1

    Holy - Am I doing it wrong?

    I was under the impression that Mastery in gear for holy should be reforged to haste if not already there.
    My Holy Priest Armory she is my alt. Adopted her after my wife stopped playing, before I get a "she-male" comment :P

    Lately I have been enjoying healing a lot, so I have started working on my priest. Even farmed Tsunami Deck for the priest.

    For the last couple of days I have been looking into other priests armories, specially those doing high content and noticed their haste is low. Some as low as 2%, is haste no longer the way to go for holy?

    I have seen some stack mastery as holy, some stack on int (SP)...

    Am I under the wrong impression by going all out to reach the 15% haste cap?

  2. #2
    at this tier of raiding the haste cap sits at 12,5% or 7,5% (considering the 5% haste raid buff from Spriest, Boomkins or Shamans), which is when renew gets an aditional tick..

    after that cap is useless to try to go for the next one (25% or 20% with raid buff) where renew gets another tick and so does HoH and DH (I believe)

    so just get enough to 7,5% make sure there's a 5% haste buff on the raid and then stack mastery (on gear), gems should be Int + something if you want to go for socket bonuses or just pure int

    btw which priests did you saw with 2% haste that's way too low... since Darkness talent isn't shown on the armory that could mean they've it and maybe their locks are using Dark Intent on them that would be enough to get to surpass de 7,5% mark I guess..

    Edit: Sorry if Darkness is shown in the Armory, it probably is... it is just that I went to look in my armory and I was in my Disc Spec and Gear that's why I did not have my 8% haste, just noticed now after posting... can't get ingame to switch now and confirm what I said, just in case can you link the armory link of the priests you saw with only that haste?
    Last edited by Kaeldin; 2011-04-01 at 05:29 PM.
    Kaeldin the Flamebreaker, lvl 85 Blood Elf Priest [Grim Batol EU]

    There is never enough haste to compensate for bad DPS or a stupid tank.
    You can't heal stupidity.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    Stat priority at the start should be something like this:
    INT > Spirit > Haste up to at least 7,2% haste including talents, but not buffs > Haste/mastery > Crit
    Most will agree that getting the extra ticks outta renew/hoh/dh is better than mastery, but after it's a more open discussion, since haste gives HPS (health per second) boost, while mastery gives HPM (health per mana) boost.

    After you get full epic gear and stuff you should be able to determine what is the better choice for you.
    Last edited by Yilar; 2011-04-01 at 05:58 PM.

  5. #5
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    HPM means Health Per Mana not Health Per Minute

    You can go either way and be fine, honestly. Base it off of who you play with, what content you're doing, your personal playstyle, etc.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    Woops, spelling error

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeldin View Post
    at this tier of raiding the haste cap sits at 12,5% or 7,5% (considering the 5% haste raid buff from Spriest, Boomkins or Shamans), which is when renew gets an aditional tick..
    It is not a cap and your math is wrong. D: Haste is multiplicative, not additive. You need roughly 7.2% haste from other sources to reach 12.5% haste if you have the 5% buff.

    Even then, getting more haste than it takes to get an extra tick on renew is best. It's not like you're seeing major benefits from getting that extra tick anyway unless you're renew spamming.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeldin View Post
    at this tier of raiding the haste cap sits at 12,5% or 7,5% (considering the 5% haste raid buff from Spriest, Boomkins or Shamans), which is when renew gets an aditional tick..

    after that cap is useless to try to go for the next one (25% or 20% with raid buff) where renew gets another tick and so does HoH and DH (I believe)

    so just get enough to 7,5% make sure there's a 5% haste buff on the raid and then stack mastery (on gear), gems should be Int + something if you want to go for socket bonuses or just pure int
    RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE! There is no Haste cap. Seriously. Why is everyone pretending that you should ignore all Haste after 12.5%. Do you stop casting heals after that? Does the GCD stop existing when you reach 12.5% Haste?
    I'm not going to say that choosing Haste is the only right way to go, but going to exactly 12.5% and disregarding all Haste after that for the sake of improving one spell that you don't even use that much is just ridiculous.
    Retired Holy Priest
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  9. #9
    High Overlord Denzion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE! There is no Haste cap. Seriously. Why is everyone pretending that you should ignore all Haste after 12.5%. Do you stop casting heals after that? Does the GCD stop existing when you reach 12.5% Haste?
    I'm not going to say that choosing Haste is the only right way to go, but going to exactly 12.5% and disregarding all Haste after that for the sake of improving one spell that you don't even use that much is just ridiculous.
    It's not ridiculous.

    You are right, there is no "cap" exactly, but the number crunchers will tell you (and rightly so) that you get more throughput with mastery then you do with haste after 12.5%. This is an excepted idea amongst thousands of the top holy priests in the world.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denzion View Post
    It's not ridiculous.

    You are right, there is no "cap" exactly, but the number crunchers will tell you (and rightly so) that you get more throughput with mastery then you do with haste after 12.5%. This is an excepted idea amongst thousands of the top holy priests in the world.
    This simply is not the case, I've crunched the numbers in other threads here. The primary difference after the 12.5% mark is that Mastery becomes the more efficient stat, in that it provides both HPS and HPM where Haste only provides HPS. In all of that, Haste still provides more HPS and somewhat more versatility in that throughput (as it provides spell selection choices with that additional throughput), where Mastery provides somewhat less HPS, but by also providing HPM you may be able to increase your throughput more indirectly by replacing some regen with other stats, but that is also extremely difficult as regen requirements will vary from encounter to encounter.

    Moreso, the 12.5% mark is only meaningful with regard to Renew which, even for those who do like Renew a lot, it shouldn't be enough of your healing to make THAT big of a difference. You still gain a faster GCD and reduced cast time with Haste, so it's still useful.

    Further, each stat is going to be useful in different situations. To give extreme examples, Mastery is borderline useless in Chimaeron, and Haste is invaluable as you can squeeze in extra GCDs when you need it most. On the other end, Mastery is very powerful in a fight like Nefarian, where there is plenty of time to top people up between crackles, so effective spell selection to take advantage of it can be very powerful in that sort of situation.

    Now, all of that said, I still personally value Mastery more than Haste, but that's in the context of a 25-man healer and I can generally take heavy advantage of my Mastery ticks and my healing assignments reflect that. However, I still keep a healthy dose of Haste because I've found that with less, I simple don't have the burst throughput I need to tackle some of the Heroics and assist other healers as needed.

  11. #11
    High Overlord Denzion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq View Post
    Moreso, the 12.5% mark is only meaningful with regard to Renew which, even for those who do like Renew a lot, it shouldn't be enough of your healing to make THAT big of a difference. You still gain a faster GCD and reduced cast time with Haste, so it's still useful.
    The 12.5% mark affects every spell that you have that is a HoT as well as Divine Hymn. So you get extra ticks on Glyph of PoH and Echos of Light.

    As a holy priest, in my practical experience as a 25 man raid healer (not tank healing), stacking mastery has been a huge boost to my throughput and efficiency.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denzion View Post
    It's not ridiculous.

    You are right, there is no "cap" exactly, but the number crunchers will tell you (and rightly so) that you get more throughput with mastery then you do with haste after 12.5%. This is an excepted idea amongst thousands of the top holy priests in the world.
    First of all, I apologize for the overreaction (but I do think it was pretty clear I was halfjoking). I have had a hard few days, but I shouldn't vent on forums.
    On to the actual response. Yes, the calculations tell us that after 12.5% Haste loses its value and Mastery becomes the best stat. But calculations have always been a bad way to assess healing and you need to look at the logic of the calculations.
    1) Haste until the 12.5% "cap" is good, because this number gives you an extra tick on Renew. Now Renew really isn't that important, all things considering. Haste still benefits other spells.
    2) The calculations say Mastery is better than Haste mostly because it provides more healing done for the same mana and effort. This is true, but the extra healing done is extremely low and looks very good on the meters. But it doesn't really do anything valuable. It will not take a player out of a 'wounded' state to a safe state. It will not prevent any deaths.
    Is Mastery bad? No, all those little trickles of heals all add up. I, personally, prefer Haste because I feel it provides healing when I need it, not when my target is already in a safe zone. Both Mastery and Haste have their worth, and each priest should decide which one s/he prefers. But I don't like people advising others to cut down on the Haste because they're over some kind of magical number.
    Retired Holy Priest
    As a rule, I try to act on the internet as I would in real life. If I have offended you, feel free to point it out. Unless I meant to offend you, I will probably apologize.

  13. #13
    You should absolutely try to reach the haste breakpoint to get the extra tick on renew. Earlier on in Cata people said that for certain playstyles the haste breakpoint didn't matter, because you can just roll renew. Unfortunately, you'll rarely be in Serenity Chakra, so that's not really the case. If you never use renew, then obviously the breakpoint matters little, but you really should be using it, at least on tanks when you get the chance. Beyond this, haste and mastery are, for all practical purposes, equal and based on playstyle/your raid comp/the bosses you're doing. You should certainly, however, gem for int before the two stats.

  14. #14
    I think they are both geared for discipline spec more than the holy spec. Seeing as both have 2 specs they can choose of (to be as versatile as possible). It doesn't give you a good idea of what stats to go for tbh if you are only focusing on what to go for as holy. More haste is nice for PoH, renew's and your other cast spells.
    Last edited by Nunally; 2011-04-02 at 01:28 AM.
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  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    As long as you are not stacking crit, there is no true "right" or "wrong" for healing. It is pretty much based on your personal playstyle. Stat prioritizing is at your own discression. You can choose to go simply to the Renew tick point or further than that (I go to getting a 2.0 cast time on PoH).

    It is moreso opinion than fact. While, yes, mastery will in fact boost your healing numbers, it does not necessarily mean that is the true and only way to go. This isn't like in Wrath, where one secondary stat trumped all else.

    As an example, in about equivalent gear I do more HPS than another holy priest at only 12.5% haste. Does this mean he is doing it wrong? No. It just means I am pumping out more spells than he is. However, if I am OOM and he is not at the end of the fight (or even before it), then that means my method is not as effective as his.

    At the end of the day, only one stat really matters. Mana efficiency. How you go about making that work is up to you.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE! There is no Haste cap. Seriously. Why is everyone pretending that you should ignore all Haste after 12.5%. Do you stop casting heals after that? Does the GCD stop existing when you reach 12.5% Haste?
    I'm not going to say that choosing Haste is the only right way to go, but going to exactly 12.5% and disregarding all Haste after that for the sake of improving one spell that you don't even use that much is just ridiculous.

    well I said it was the "cap" of this raid tier, which meant the first soft cap point of haste for us Holy Priests... After getting the first soft cap, the marginal gain from having haste is less than having of other useful stats like mastery (since crit is pretty much RNG and most of it goes to waste with overheal) of course having more than that ain't bad but you're just better having other stats (at least imo, don't have any theorycrafting supporting this)

    I just meant it as a guideline, haste has breakpoints - a point in which it is a lot better than it's previous value and much like the same the next value... when a stat has breakpoints and the stat is useful to you, you generally want to get just the enough to get to the breakpoint since the gain you have from having more of that stat ain't that great anymore (unless like I stated above you can get to the next breakpoint)


    Mastery doesn't work that way, it's a linear stat - at least for now (diminishing returns are to be had if we don't want our heals to leave a DoT of 80% in 4.3 :P) so any aditional point of mastery has the same utility no matter how much mastery you already have

    I assume what I said probably looked like - Get only 7,5% haste, if you get anymore your heal decreases in 100% omg laz0rs!!! - but It was my bad then, he was asking for a number to get and I said the most optimal number

    sorry for any misinterpretation that might have caused

    EDIT: About your point 3, I'm currently running only normal modes and besides Al'Akir where it can be a bit random most of the other healing is actually predictable so haste doesn't really matter to me right now, in HC modes this might change ofc... So again what I'm saying might not apply to what's best to every content
    Last edited by Kaeldin; 2011-04-02 at 10:57 AM.
    Kaeldin the Flamebreaker, lvl 85 Blood Elf Priest [Grim Batol EU]

    There is never enough haste to compensate for bad DPS or a stupid tank.
    You can't heal stupidity.

  17. #17
    Fluffy Kitten Lohe's Avatar
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    the 12.5% is only something you should pay attention to if you use renew AND you don't plan to refresh it by using the serenity chakra.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denzion View Post
    The 12.5% mark affects every spell that you have that is a HoT as well as Divine Hymn. So you get extra ticks on Glyph of PoH and Echos of Light.
    Glyph of PoH does not gain additional ticks. Fairly sure that EoL doesn't gain more ticks either but I don't have a holy spec to test with atm.

  18. #18
    Offtopic. Does anyone know how to write a Greasemonkey script that replaces anything that says '12.5%' with 'LOLrenewHasteCap'. Or if thats even possible? I'd really appreciate it. I'd be nice to get a bit of humor out of these trolls if nothing else.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    Offtopic. Does anyone know how to write a Greasemonkey script that replaces anything that says '12.5%' with 'LOLrenewHasteCap'. Or if thats even possible? I'd really appreciate it. I'd be nice to get a bit of humor out of these trolls if nothing else.
    chaud pointed this one out to me:
    http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/41369

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-02 at 12:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeldin View Post
    well I said it was the "cap" of this raid tier, which meant the first soft cap point of haste for us Holy Priests... After getting the first soft cap, the marginal gain from having haste is less than having of other useful stats like mastery (since crit is pretty much RNG and most of it goes to waste with overheal) of course having more than that ain't bad but you're just better having other stats (at least imo, don't have any theorycrafting supporting this)
    So first you marginalize the gains of going from a 2.4 second cast time to a 2 second cast time, offer no real counterweight to this other than to say "ain't bad but you're better off", stating it as fact before you follow through with an "imo, don't have any theorycrafting"?

    I just meant it as a guideline, haste has breakpoints - a point in which it is a lot better than it's previous value and much like the same the next value... when a stat has breakpoints and the stat is useful to you, you generally want to get just the enough to get to the breakpoint since the gain you have from having more of that stat ain't that great anymore (unless like I stated above you can get to the next breakpoint)

    Mastery doesn't work that way, it's a linear stat - at least for now (diminishing returns are to be had if we don't want our heals to leave a DoT of 80% in 4.3 :P) so any aditional point of mastery has the same utility no matter how much mastery you already have
    Haste doesn't have breakpoints. Your Global Cooldown scales linearly. Your 2.5 second casts scale linearly. Your Divine Hymn is used once a fight, so no one fucking cares how it scales. Interestingly enough, though, your Renew scales linearly with Haste as well as in breakpoints.

    No really. Outside of getting "the fifth tick" of Renew, more haste means that it ticks faster. Faster means it contributes to stabilizing people when you want to use it (which should be your goal, why you use it). But you're gearing around a point that doesn't matter, because you don't use Renew as your "main, go to" heal anyways. So why the hell are you stopping here?

    I assume what I said probably looked like - Get only 7,5% haste, if you get anymore your heal decreases in 100% omg laz0rs!!! - but It was my bad then, he was asking for a number to get and I said the most optimal number
    Except, the real most "optimal" number is "as much as you can get, without sacrificing too much Spirit to get there".

    EDIT: About your point 3, I'm currently running only normal modes and besides Al'Akir where it can be a bit random most of the other healing is actually predictable so haste doesn't really matter to me right now, in HC modes this might change ofc... So again what I'm saying might not apply to what's best to every content
    This logic is only valid if you're only casting one spell every 10 seconds, really. Because you go from that pre-cast, into another spell. And another spell, and another spell. Infact, with more haste, it becomes easier to lead a spell into a second Pre-cast. Haste contributes not only to the reactive healing, but pro-active as well as general stability.
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  20. #20
    I do hardmodes every week and I prefer the Mastery path. But either way works completely fine.

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-02 at 08:28 PM ----------

    Something important about Mastery. If you aren't close enough for the mastery to round up to the next point, get it as close to the lower point as possible by getting some haste back. Like, theres no point in having 17.48 mastery, so try to drop the .48 for more haste.

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