Valiona&Theralion 10HM without a rogue

[Slymette]

Hi

We are going to try V&T 10HM tonight (currently at 7/13 HM) but we don't have any rogue...
I can hardly find informations on what classes to use to kill the sentries, how many people, when do we have to switch world (each time there is a valiona/theralion switch ?), is it for the full combat duration (or how many debuffs can the group handle before it gets hard ?
I have heard it can be done with only 1 tank, is it viable ?

Thanks for your help

[Sarthed]

I attempted this fight last night without a rogue, and it was pretty hard. The debuff stacks up really quickly, so you'll have to have someone immune it some how (paladin bubble, mage bubble, etc...). The adds have ~60k health on 10 man and die really fast, so having a class that can burst down the adds is the best. From what I understand, you'll have two dps (and maybe two healers) rotate into the twilight realm each transition, since the debuff will last five minutes.
I personally never heard of a one tank strat, because you'll get sent to the twilight realm after 5 stacks (we had it right when the dragons were transitioning) and you'll have to get back to the normal realm really fast in order to be up the other dragon.
Good luck, it's pretty AIDs.

[timoseewho]

The 1-tank strategy works like this, MT gets ported at 5, a DPS OT (Warrior/Death Knight/Druid) gets into appropriate stance, puts on whatever gear he can, taunts, pops CD's and tanks for as long as he can while the MT is finding his way out and taunts back (it's noteworthy that the OT should stagger his tank CD's and not pop all on first time tanking). This also works better if your MT happens to be a Paladin since he can bubble out of a 4 stack at least 2 times in the fight depending on how long your fight lasts of course.

[Deleted]

Just send down a healer and a ranged dps and come back when you the debuff feels high. You can 2 man heal outside np

[Deleted]

I don't do 10m raiding, but it's perfectly doable on 25m HM without a rogue.

[Deleted]

It's doable but a sub rogue makes it sooo much easier.

If you don't have a plate offtank you can just send down a healer with the tank when he gets shifted, or if it's a warrior he can just heroic leap to the portal and take 1-2 hits. I'm not sure but I think you may have to taunt the boss just before you get 5 stacks.

[Wilderness]

Hi

We are going to try V&T 10HM tonight (currently at 7/13 HM) but we don't have any rogue...
I can hardly find informations on what classes to use to kill the sentries, how many people, when do we have to switch world (each time there is a valiona/theralion switch ?), is it for the full combat duration (or how many debuffs can the group handle before it gets hard ?
I have heard it can be done with only 1 tank, is it viable ?

Thanks for your help

Its definitely doable with 1 tank, that's how we have always done it. We have a feral druid go bear and taunt for the couple seconds while our tank is down below. That makes things easier and a smoother transition but you technically don't need that as your tank will keep threat while in the shadow realm, but he can take a lot of damage when you combine the normal melee hits with the shadow realm. If portals aren't placed well for when the tank goes down it can take more than a second or two to come back up, and then the damage really starts piling up, so having a dps who can tank briefly just makes things easier.

We have always had a sub rogue, so I can't speak to personal experience of doing it without. What does your comp look like? Like someone mentioned, you'll want to send down a healer and a dps (and rotate another healer and dps the second time around) down, and it should be ranged dps because they won't have to move much and can spend more time nuking the adds. Its certainly doable, but it does make the fight much more difficult. To be honest if someone has a rogue alt that you can get a little gear on from your normal mode farming that is probably your best bet since it simplifies the fight so much and a rogue is a big help on H Conclave 10 as well (although if you are 7/13 you must have gotten that one down already).

[flamejackal]

My guild has been doing this boss for a few weeks now without a rogue and we still can't one-shot it. Here is how we handle the twilight phase:
First person to zone in is the tank once he gets 5 stacks which is about when the first Dazzling happens.
He zones out immediately whilst our cat goes bear, taunts and runs
The MT taunts as soon as he gets out.
We have a ret, hunter and a disc priest take the last Dazzling (the 3rd) into the twilight realm
They kill everything and zone out. The priest and UH generally leave a little earlier than the ret. he uses bubble to stay in longer and clean stuff up.
The second time the MT gets 5 stacks, which ends up being about the time of the first deep breath for us, we have a mage, lock and resto shaman stack on the MT (we can spread meteor damage like this as almost all the people left outside stack on the melee for their meteors). They (dps, healer,tank) all zone in at the same time and clean the room. The mage does what the ret did in the first phase and stay in for longer using block.
We usually have the MT get 5 stacks again around 30% and he zones in and out.
The last Dazzling we generally send one DPS (UH DK usually) to the realm. He stands near a group of the dragonkin and waits until the Dazzling spawns on him, does in and kills them and zones out.
By the time the boss dies we generally have 8-10 adds up.

[Slymette]

Thanks for your answers

Wilderness : our comp will be :
- prot war & prot pal (maybe switch one of them in dps spec, well maybe after the shadow world is correctly managed in order to grab some dps if it's too short on enrage timer)
- holy pal, disc or holy priest, and resto sham
- enhanc sham
- mage, hunter, sp, equi druid

At first I though we could send frost mage + holy pal to manage adds, they reset their stacks in order to stay longer, zone out when it's too much damage, and go again the second time.
But from what I understand you have to make 2 different teams ? There is a debuff I haven't seen on logs which prevent you from going to quickly ?

And yes Conclave is already clean, we were already looking for a rogue but managed to do it without ^^

[Deleted]

We solotank it (heroic leaping warrior), but we do use a rogue now.

[Wilderness]

Thanks for your answers

Wilderness : our comp will be :
- prot war & prot pal (maybe switch one of them in dps spec, well maybe after the shadow world is correctly managed in order to grab some dps if it's too short on enrage timer)
- holy pal, disc or holy priest, and resto sham
- enhanc sham
- mage, hunter, sp, equi druid

At first I though we could send frost mage + holy pal to manage adds, they reset their stacks in order to stay longer, zone out when it's too much damage, and go again the second time.
But from what I understand you have to make 2 different teams ? There is a debuff I haven't seen on logs which prevent you from going to quickly ?

And yes Conclave is already clean, we were already looking for a rogue but managed to do it without ^^

The reason I was thinking two teams is because say you send your mage down the first time, he'll use Iceblock to clear his stacks and stay longer, but it won't be up again for the next time he goes down so having someone else with a CD to help them might be better. The debuff you get down there lasts 2 minutes (according to wowhead) and not 5 like someone else mentioned, so if there are more than 2 minutes between times you need to go down then you could have one team doing it the whole time.

I'd suggest have your warrior tank it and your pally go dps. Heroic Leap is great for getting to a portal in the shadow realm quickly when he gets ported down. Having your Pally tank it and bubble the stacks doesn't sound as useful from what people who have done the fight without a rogue since they sometimes need to use the tanks 5 stack to get people down there.

It will require some pretty careful timing with blackout though, because if you have 2-3 people down there you will have some trouble healing through it up top. I'd imagine that if you are sending 3 people down there you'll need at least a couple of them back up to stack for blackouts so that limits the time you can be down there to during Theralion's phase.

[welfareheals]

We tried this last night. The healing requirement with out a rogue (losing a healer below) really makes the fight tough. We had a resto shaman, disc priest, and resto druid.

Any advice?

We were sending the disc priest down first with a mage.

[Jon]

It's possible (and not very hard, in fact) to just zerg down the dragons without sending anyone to the other side (other than the tanks).

We did it with 2 tanks, 2 healers + 6 dps. The tanks killed a couple of adds alone while in the twilight zone, but that's it.

[Tigraz]

Sorry for my english, this is not the native language for me. I'm using Google translator most of the time.

We did it with 2 tanks(dk and paladin) 3 healers(shaman, druid, paladin) and 5 dd(2warlocks, hunter, balance druid, paladin).

As you can see, our setup has not optimal. We used the following tactics.

Begins Paladin and swap with dk in 4 stacks.
Holy Paladin and Balance druid move down on third Dazzling Destruction and killing as much as they can before 15-20stacks up. Then move up.
On third deep breath from Valiona our dk jump in twilight and kill as many add as you can before he die. We can res up him later, depends on the situation. Tanking paladin and resets the stacks buble, if the dragons is still alive. We usually kill the boss on the landing phase valion. On last phase if blackout cast on paladins we do not come running, they r use bubble.
Thats all.

All our rdd dps around 22-24k, mdd 20k

[killars]

Warlocks or Mages (especially frost), are excellent choices to go for DPS if you don't have a Sub Rogue. You'll want to combo this with a good healer like a Resto Druid or Holy Paladin IMO. Trying not to do too much and just coming up after killing a few (without dying) is the key with this, but obviously the longer you can stay down the better.

[Deleted]

Why not have a hunter pet do the tanking? If it dies it can be combat-ressed infinite amount of times. Heck, the debuff may even not be able to hit a pet, lots of debuffs don't.


Edit: I might just have misunderstood the posts, I thought you got the debuff from taking damage from the add downstairs, but upon further reading it seems this is not the case.

[Wilderness]

It's possible (and not very hard, in fact) to just zerg down the dragons without sending anyone to the other side (other than the tanks).

We did it with 2 tanks, 2 healers + 6 dps. The tanks killed a couple of adds alone while in the twilight zone, but that's it.

I find it pretty hard to believe that its zergable; its still going to be a 6+ minute fight isn't it? I don't see how that damage just doesn't add up and wreck you, or why you'd use 2 tanks instead of 1 for an extra dps if you were going to try and zerg it.