Replenishment will have to go eventually.

[Griepen]

DPS casters don't need Replenishment in most cases and removing this arbitrary mechanic would only do good.

Yeah, i play arcane, replenishment is fucking huge

[Belloc]

The fact that mana management was supposed to return this expansion is being overlooked (like the vast majority of other things...)

If your raid is performing properly in a normal raid, you shouldn't run out of mana. If your raid is performing properly in a heroic raid, you will probably be running close to dry near the end, depending on whether the fight is progression or farm.

If your raid is performing poorly on a normal mode, you will be hurting for mana (assuming the players survive as a result of your healing). If your raid is performing poorly on a heroic mode, either they will die or you will run out of mana. To give an example: We're currently working on heroic 10-man ascendant council. Our holy paladin was at 100% mana when we went into the last phase. By the time the damage became unhealable, he was under 10% mana. Had he not managed his mana properly in the previous phase, we would've wiped from a lack of healing instead of the soft enrage. It's entirely possible that our other healers went OOM before we wiped, I am not sure. Either way, it's apparent to me that mana management is very much a part of progression raiding.

Mana management hasn't been overlooked, so don't call that a "fact." Instead, actually run progression content (without overgearing it) and then tell me how your mana management is going. If you aren't willing to do that, you have no business posting about mana management.


(and when I say overgear, I mean someone wearing mostly epics fighting normal mode bosses. If you're in full heroic blues, you are properly geared. If your average item level is around or above 354+, you are overgeared for normal raids).

[Deleted]

A key word in my OP was the word "eventually".

Mana might still be limited to a certain extent in current content. But lets me honest here, fights can't really get much harder or more healing intensive than Sinestra.

Now assume a 15% stat increase from gear for every tier of raiding and see how things go from there.

Tier 11: Say you're boasting 3000 Spirit raid-buffed in full 372 gear.

Tier 12: This translates to roughly 3500 Spirit in Tier 12 heroic gear.

Tier 13: Again, the tier increase adds about 500 Spirit, making it 4000 Spirit.

Tier 13: The final Tier will boast another 500 extra Spirit in BiS gear, resulting in roughly 4500 Spirit.


Now if you add the extra amounts of Intelligence that leads to an increase in mana-pools as well, am I the only one who sees this as a problem?

The problem is that mana consumption doesn't really increase much from Tier to Tier, while regeneration does.

[Culexus]

A key word in my OP was the word "eventually".

Mana might still be limited to a certain extent in current content. But lets me honest here, fights can't really get much harder or more healing intensive than Sinestra.

Now assume a 15% stat increase from gear for every tier of raiding and see how things go from there.

Tier 11: Say you're boasting 3000 Spirit raid-buffed in full 372 gear.

Tier 12: This translates to roughly 3500 Spirit in Tier 12 heroic gear.

Tier 13: Again, the tier increase adds about 500 Spirit, making it 4000 Spirit.

Tier 13: The final Tier will boast another 500 extra Spirit in BiS gear, resulting in roughly 4500 Spirit.


Now if you add the extra amounts of Intelligence that leads to an increase in mana-pools as well, am I the only one who sees this as a problem?

The problem is that mana consumption doesn't really increase much from Tier to Tier, while regeneration does.

Bosses will have more hp and until you gear up last longer. People will have higher healthpools and therefore you need more healing to fill them. The game was always designed around feeling ridiculously powerful by the time the last raid hits. Remember LK HC? People were spilling out 5 times the dmg they did in the last tier. Although healers had infinite mana it wasnt a cakewalk to heal but it was an entirely different model and that still stays even with better regen by t12 or t13. Believe me ... even in t13 you will go oom when you use your "flashheal" too much on a progress encounter.
Did you even try healing in cata? By now you dont have to use your fast and very expensive emergency heals in general. Create a boss that calls for that with a certain ability and back are your mana concerns.
Also healing isnt supposed to be running on an edge and when you once waste mana you are fucked. There is always an error margin.

Also what a lot of people said, why should it be wrong that a healer goes for his primary stat? You say they stack int over spirit. Thats nothing new. No one ever stacked spirit over int (perhaps some shamis do it). Not even as a fresh lvl 85 healer in 329. Int is: Initial Mana, Replenishment mana, increases spirit regen, increases spellpower, increases crit. It is designed to be the best stat.

[kenn9530]

replenshment is an essential buff that is needed to succeed in hc modes, caster dps rely on this as without it the last 20% you will be oom and with replen it gives most casters more than enough mana so replen will not be removed.

more mana regen means the use of more mana intensive heals and in the coming content the it will be balanced around healers relying on the larger spells more often and making replen a buff that is always needed, you never need to stack regen as if you have enough on your gear it far from enough for all content, the only class that gems a lil spirit if shammys as they are the raids mana battery with MTT adn having 2 of these is a big bit of regen although its not essential to have 2 shammys 1 is very gd to have.

healers will never have infinite mana you will just have more regen as the content progresses so you can spend more mana on the big heals.

[Deleted]

Bosses will have more hp and until you gear up last longer. People will have higher healthpools and therefore you need more healing to fill them. The game was always designed around feeling ridiculously powerful by the time the last raid hits. Remember LK HC? People were spilling out 5 times the dmg they did in the last tier. Although healers had infinite mana it wasnt a cakewalk to heal but it was an entirely different model and that still stays even with better regen by t12 or t13. Believe me ... even in t13 you will go oom when you use your "flashheal" too much on a progress encounter.
Did you even try healing in cata? By now you dont have to use your fast and very expensive emergency heals in general. Create a boss that calls for that with a certain ability and back are your mana concerns.
Also healing isnt supposed to be running on an edge and when you once waste mana you are fucked. There is always an error margin.

Also what a lot of people said, why should it be wrong that a healer goes for his primary stat? You say they stack int over spirit. Thats nothing new. No one ever stacked spirit over int (perhaps some shamis do it). Not even as a fresh lvl 85 healer in 329. Int is: Initial Mana, Replenishment mana, increases spirit regen, increases spellpower, increases crit. It is designed to be the best stat.

This is a reasonable response and you make a few good points.

I still see us ending up with Infinite mana healers in later Tiers of content, even with tougher healing. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

PS: I have no problem with Healers stacking Int. It just seems rather early for them to be disregarding Spirit in favour of Int.

[Bucknazty]

Have you ever healed in Cata? I sure as hell cant spam Healing Touch nonstop w/o going oom. And I GIVE Replish with my LB. And HT is my max mana spell.

I will give you the fact that most fights I dont need to WORRY about mana. But I cant spam Rejuv and HT as in Wrath. Fights where I have to pick up the slack and heal for 2..as in cases I have been in where, when we wiped, I was doing 1mil healing done and the nearest was 500k and one at like 300k under him, I need my own Innervate, a Mana Tide, and another Innervate to keep it up. That is spamming Rejuv and HT. W/o Replishment, I would not be able to do that and probablly would have even more trouble on bosses we have on farm.

[kenn9530]

This is a reasonable response and you make a few good points.

I still see us ending up with Infinite mana healers in later Tiers of content, even with tougher healing. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

PS: I have no problem with Healers stacking Int. It just seems rather early for them to be disregarding Spirit in favour of Int.

healers wont have infinte mana at any point, with proper mana management you can make it last as long as you need it but to have infinte mana means you can spam your biggest heal pretty much all fight.

the next tier of raiding will scale so as you have the need to increase your gear the encounters will be more challenging and inturn there will be more to heal so the extra regen you get from the better gear will go towards the extra healing you need to do per encounter. On gear i see around a 200 increase in spirit in the next tier for normal at least so the extra regen you get it not huge and a possible mana pool in the 130k mark for pallies at least in the normal tier of the next content.

Im guessing the mark for regen boost in the next tier will be around 250 mp5 most likely a lil more but we will have to see how the stats are on the gear in firelands. Without replen healers will lose at least 1k mp5 and the casters inturn will start goin oom.

Without replen as a caster at around 20-30% you start having problems with mana and thats the most important part so if your oom your goin to wipe, replen is an essential buff needed to progress in all hc modes.

[Beldorin]

I don't see the issue with mana regeneration as it stands at the end of this content tier - our understanding of the encounters is better, meaning we are better able to anticipate incoming burst damage and plan accordingly, tanks are better able to use their survivability talents with the aforementioned understanding of incoming damage, and DPS, having naturally progressed with higher item levels, means that bosses aren't around long enough to reach the end of healers' mana pools, on average. There are extenuating circumstances, of course, but for the most part, it only stands to reason that our mana bars aren't being stretched like they were at the launch of the expansion.

I, for one, am not convinced that the mana regeneration mechanic needs reworking because higher levels of gear are supposed to make life easier. Will full T12 rangers be cruising through heroics? Of course - it's only a function of out-gearing the encounters. Do we really want the game to be grudgingly hard all of the time? I admit that downing tough encounters is rewarding, but I submit that the only way to keep that dynamic in place is to shard all of the gear from the boss' loot table and keep attempting it in 346 ilvl for the rest of the tier of raid content.

Aside from that, I remember the challenges fondly, and I simply look forward to seeing the new challenges from 4.2.

No changes necessary, IMHO

[Deleted]

No changes necessary, IMHO

Well with the latest patch notes, it's quite obvious Blizzard disagrees.

Massive mana-regen nerfs to Shamans especially, mana-cost buff for Paladins and Innervate changes for Druids. Priests are still to come.

I guess removing Replenishment would be a much more elegant solution, although by itself, still insufficient.

You'd think though, that Blizz would have had more foresight after the Wrath healing debacle.

[Sanisbad]

I call shenanigans on this thread. Mana mattered when we were all 346, going into normal raids. Once we got all 359 gear, then yeah 359 content became less tense. Going into heroic content, mana mattered again. And I imagine once we all have 372 gear, than mana wont be so tight.

[Sark]

I call shenanigans on this thread. Mana mattered when we were all 346, going into normal raids. Once we got all 359 gear, then yeah 359 content became less tense. Going into heroic content, mana mattered again. And I imagine once we all have 372 gear, than mana wont be so tight.

When you have a shard of Woe, mana is a thing of the past.

[sicness]

So how about you go do some hardmodes and let us know.


Please note that encounters aren't designed to be killed in full BIS -- at that point yeah healer mana prob won't matter, but that's because the encounter wasn't balanced around full BiS. Encounters are designed around having mostly non-heroic epics, with a few heroic epics thrown in (depends on the fight. Later fights are balanced around more gear etc).


So saying "Our healers have an average ilvl of 361 and we aren't having mana issues on normalmodes" is rather funny.


Another thing to note. Try doing some of the first hardmodes before they nerfed them 3 times making it that much easier



Let me know!

Pretty much this. I mean honestly you're arguing that mana doesn't matter when you're out gearing the fights now. They're not intended to be done with tier 11 gear in normal modes, they're meant to be done in 346 ilvl gear. That's why you're not running out of mana, not because of poor game design.

They're also obviously looking into the issue arising again in tier 12 by nerfing mana regen abilities already - before we even know the encounters or what stats tier 12 will have. They're on top of it so I wouldn't really worry about it.