Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Community Protection Warrior F.A.Q development.

    I'm pretty interested in developing a F.A.Q for protection warriors with common questions answered and the current approach to protection pull/threat/gear etc explained. The guide is nice, but I think it misses a lot of things. It would start off with me posting several generic questions and a group of warriors here say responding with their answers. Answers need to be as detailed as possible, but before we start I have to guage the level of interest in developing something, and get more suggestions to the approach I have in mind.

    Suggestions possible are possible format/organization methodology[spoilers etc?] pretty much everything. The only thing required is a community approach with maybe people voting on best suggestions. I don't know about the last part though. The most important though will be process of creation and time interval until we move on to the next set of questions.

    Things I'm thinking about none are definitive
    • Maybe a 'council' of people who will have their posts posted no matter what(might slow down creation though, and that's pretty bad)
    So pretty much anyone interested? We would do this piece-meal a few steps at a time with input from everyone.


    Questions going on right now: What way can I increase my threat output? I keep losing aggro in raid dungeons!
    Last edited by Calmwinds; 2011-04-29 at 08:52 PM.

  2. #2
    The Patient kolopotho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    299
    id be willing to contribute - both questions and answers

  3. #3
    Would love this really. Just started a protection warrior and I have a lot of questions!

  4. #4
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Borås, Sweden
    Posts
    3,712
    I'm most certainly interested. It's getting tiresome to write posts with the same content three times every day.

  5. #5
    A question I'd like addressed by Blizzard is: Since mastery has become so valuable to protection warriors, shouldn't it be devalued to the level of other avoidance stats in order to make sure gearing is still interesting? The obvious culprit in this is the shield block change. Change it back to 100% to give warriors back the defenses they need while also devaluing mastery for protection.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  6. #6
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Borås, Sweden
    Posts
    3,712
    A good approach, which would fit the MMO-C community, would be a format where a big questions like "Which stats are attractive to me?" where split into a small paragraph providing some basic numbers on what the stat do, how strong the rating is and, primarily, an interpretation or basically just a couple of sentances describing how we treat those numbers.

    I feel many who go to Elitistjerks.com or similar communities are intimidated by the vast amount of numbers, concepts and lack of explaination of those. It's how those communities work and should stay that way, but a forum for discussing those facts is just as useful and for that reason I'd like to see a simple presentation of how stats work and why we like them. For instance, many don't know how much dodge they gain from dodge rating, many know diminishing returns exists but are clueless over the details or just how much they lose to it. Or, at some point - and even before that point - dodge and parry rating should both reduce more damge per point of rating than mastery, but further increasing mastery is likely to be desireable.

    One could also include a section with "documented discussions" on topics where the community has split opinions, like the value of stamina in proportion to other stats, offensive stats and when we want them, specific talents, how to tank or counter a certain encounter or mechanic and so on.

  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Dannyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,538
    Quote Originally Posted by Iyona View Post
    I'm most certainly interested. It's getting tiresome to write posts with the same content three times every day.
    Amen to that. So absolutely, I'm on board for this idea.

    Armory | What we do in life, it echoes in eternity.
    Blog | Hogi's Blogspot.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    Amen to that. So absolutely, I'm on board for this idea.
    Ok we will start tommorowish(today) just throw out suggestions on implementation of the process right now.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Dannyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,538
    Well, I'd say just start a thread, maybe reserve the first two posts (if necessary) and lets start getting some questions in. Anyone feel free to post in this thread or we can cannibalize other threads for common questions, and then organize them into the first post, by topic or alphabetically. I like Iyona's idea of "documented discussions" especially since a lot of questions can easily spawn entire threads of material and cut&pasting them into short blocks might not be viable.

    So maybe keep two sections on the top post; A) links to more expensive threads on a subject and B) list of short Q&A?

    Armory | What we do in life, it echoes in eternity.
    Blog | Hogi's Blogspot.

  10. #10
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Borås, Sweden
    Posts
    3,712
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    Well, I'd say just start a thread, maybe reserve the first two posts (if necessary) and lets start getting some questions in. Anyone feel free to post in this thread or we can cannibalize other threads for common questions, and then organize them into the first post, by topic or alphabetically. I like Iyona's idea of "documented discussions" especially since a lot of questions can easily spawn entire threads of material and cut&pasting them into short blocks might not be viable.

    So maybe keep two sections on the top post; A) links to more expensive threads on a subject and B) list of short Q&A?
    Links to threads isn't a very good way of presenting information. Most users want to know exactly what they read and why they read it. With "documented discussion" I meant a concise, objective text presenting the various benefits and effects different decisions have.

    As for how to create it, creating a "mini-guide" with a focus on why rather than what makes the most sense to me. As for questions, the OP could originally be made out of the most common questions from the past few weeks, then leaving the thread with a welcoming to users to ask general questions or comment/ask about the current content of the post.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Dannyl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,538
    Quote Originally Posted by Iyona View Post
    Links to threads isn't a very good way of presenting information. Most users want to know exactly what they read and why they read it. With "documented discussion" I meant a concise, objective text presenting the various benefits and effects different decisions have.
    The problem is that it isn't sounding like Q&A anymore. That sounds more like blogging, writing down articles on various topics. Even if you edit down a thread on a particular subject, it's a lot of editing work and the problem with that is also that it becomes more about the pov of the editor and as we've seen, much of this game is about flavor and personal preference. This is one reason I enjoy reading EJ threads; yes it means the reader has to go through a lot more material but it gives him (or her) access to opinions of all the people involved.

    Some responsibility has to be placed on the reader. I'm all for explaining things more from a perspective of "why," as you suggested but we're also guilty of making this stuff a bit too accessible. How many times have you seen posters first link their armory and just ask us for our opinions on improvements, only to come back after a few replies and changes, asking the same thing over and over, although by that time they should already know themselves if it is kk, because we spent all those posts explaining the actual mechanics.

    And this isn't limited to mmo-c. I've often had this problem when teaching people in-game, and just be an answering machine. People need to learn for themselves at some point and the best way to do that, is to actually make them read and think about stuff.

    Armory | What we do in life, it echoes in eternity.
    Blog | Hogi's Blogspot.

  12. #12
    The problem I have with the Q&A sections on EJ is that you have to trawl through old information to get to the new. What I would prefer is a top post that has the concensus opinions to the questions asked. Afterall, I don't want to go through 3 pages of dodge/parry discussion to find out information about the best rotation to pull with.

    So for example, you have the Q&A, but then the OP takes the information that has been discussed and writes a short summary.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Iyona View Post
    I'm most certainly interested. It's getting tiresome to write posts with the same content three times every day.
    Do I need hit as prot warrior?

    OT: I'd be glad to help but I think it will be a lot easier if the post is started bt a mod (like Iyona^^) for the edition/moderation of the post I mean, and a sticky could be nice as well

  14. #14
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Borås, Sweden
    Posts
    3,712
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    The problem is that it isn't sounding like Q&A anymore. That sounds more like blogging, writing down articles on various topics. Even if you edit down a thread on a particular subject, it's a lot of editing work and the problem with that is also that it becomes more about the pov of the editor and as we've seen, much of this game is about flavor and personal preference. This is one reason I enjoy reading EJ threads; yes it means the reader has to go through a lot more material but it gives him (or her) access to opinions of all the people involved.

    Some responsibility has to be placed on the reader. I'm all for explaining things more from a perspective of "why," as you suggested but we're also guilty of making this stuff a bit too accessible. How many times have you seen posters first link their armory and just ask us for our opinions on improvements, only to come back after a few replies and changes, asking the same thing over and over, although by that time they should already know themselves if it is kk, because we spent all those posts explaining the actual mechanics.

    And this isn't limited to mmo-c. I've often had this problem when teaching people in-game, and just be an answering machine. People need to learn for themselves at some point and the best way to do that, is to actually make them read and think about stuff.
    It would be a part of the Q&A, since some Qs don't have a short and simple A. They'd be like mini-articles helping the reader form his own opinion on the subject by presenting the various benefits and effects different choices have.

    Your post reminds me how important it is to decide upon a target group. The kind of person who creates a thread for critique is commonly not the same kind of person who rigorously follows and trusts the information he found in a guide, and those who're interested in a Q&A have taken their interest one step further. While the stickied information and how it's presented is up to the moderators, I believe a guide should present the facts, "do this and do that" to give a brief overview of what the spec is like, while a Q&A should contain information to the same kind of person who's interested in learning more.

    For instance, some want to know what the hit/expertise caps are and if they're desirable, to them a simple answer of "8%/26/yes/no" is enough. But some seek more, they want to know why it is 26, why it's/isn't desirable and when those things may change, and that's what I believe a Q&A should handle.

    You present an issue of making things "too" available. While I do see the problem and, I myself learned from really thinking hard on the subjects, eventually coming up with the same results as other thinkers, most people just don't have that interest. For the greater good of the community, making the information and logic behind easily accessible is a good thing. Not to mention, if a new reader knows all things the writers have considered, it's considerably easier for the reader to present new viewpoints on the subject without forcing the writers to repeat themselves.

    About your last part, I've actually considered opening a thread or writing some sort of article and call it "How I do stuff and why I do it", presenting all the logic behind my choices. It's the, how I see it, only reasonable way of truly making someone understand just why I act like I do. It'd also be the ultimate way for others to potientially learn new things; by taking in the entire picture of somebody else's logic. I'm quite sure if both you and I wrote an article each we'd both present things the others haven't considered, even though we seem to share opinions on many matters.

    Now I'm just rambling again. TLDR; I believe the Q&A should present common Qs with As and Ys (Read "Why's", it's so rare you get to be creative with letters so I just had to ^_^) and "mini-articles" on subjects with no sharp A.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sligboy View Post
    Do I need hit as prot warrior?
    Sometimes. Please see the stickied Q&A for a good explaination. ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sligboy View Post
    OT: I'd be glad to help but I think it will be a lot easier if the post is started bt a mod (like Iyona^^) for the edition/moderation of the post I mean, and a sticky could be nice as well
    Am I reading this wrong or do you assume that I'm a MMO-C moderator? I'm not. :P

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Maximus4004's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Manhattan, KS
    Posts
    662
    Count me in as well, I know Dan/Mammoth and Iyona really know their stuff!

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-11 at 04:48 PM ----------

    Considering it's going to be a FAQ are we going to want to wait for questions or try to compile a list of the most common ones first?

    At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  16. #16
    Stood in the Fire Atrosity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Behind you!
    Posts
    434
    I'd like to help as well on this and I agree wtih Iyona that we should have WHY people do what they do not just what they do because I can remember when I was looking up cata prot questions I just got people saying "Do this, not that, do that not this." But I never got a why and it just left me scratching my head to figure it out myself in game. So I can relate that we need to put why's not just answers, starting with the most common and then going in to the more uncommon and then a submit a question section if what we have is not covered in the previous sections.
    Tanks are made of steel, blood and a shield, not magic and twigs.
    My Warrior My Shaman

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Iyona View Post
    Am I reading this wrong or do you assume that I'm a MMO-C moderator? I'm not. :P
    Nop that was the second troll of my short message You avoid the first one but feed the second.
    but i was pointing out that to keep such a thread clear and usefull, it might need some moderation overt the time (no, it will need some).

  18. #18
    Being a noob warrior myself, the idea of a extensive FAQ sounds really cool.

  19. #19
    I don't post often because of how repetitive these forums can be but I definitely wouldn't mind contributing to a prot warrior Q&A.

  20. #20
    Would love to contribute myself. Count me in to lend a hand.

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-13 at 10:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    Some responsibility has to be placed on the reader. I'm all for explaining things more from a perspective of "why," as you suggested but we're also guilty of making this stuff a bit too accessible. How many times have you seen posters first link their armory and just ask us for our opinions on improvements, only to come back after a few replies and changes, asking the same thing over and over, although by that time they should already know themselves if it is kk, because we spent all those posts explaining the actual mechanics.

    Agreed, but its a fault of the "answer" community(us as a blanket rule), along with Blizzards "cookie cutter" builds, people in game are used to being told that this single spec is above all else the best. Stats A and B are the best to cap then stack Y indefinitely. This reason also is why I enjoy protection warriors so much, because for the most part, it feels a mature community who will consider the pro's and cons of the point of discussion. This is more so since "stack stamina" became obsolete.

    The issue with places like EJ is that TOO much detail never gets read, and as said before, alot of it is old posts too, en-mass don't want to see the maths and complicated threat sums. People just want to know which ability hits the hardest for threat or is their any caps to meet. People come to the boards and request some inspiration in their toon, They get told to ditch hit etc with little knowledge to how this user raids. For instance, telling me to "ditch all hit and zero it" would really hurt my raids as I not only tank, but interrupt too and missing the add control in maloriak can hurt. Sure others could do it, but I am quite happy to do it and enjoy pressing many buttons. There is far too much generalization in builds, stats and play style for something that is so varied guild to guild, player to player. Our guides information should be directed to follow a simplistic stratedgy, providing users with basic information, if buts and whys, but not the maths. Users should be able to click into a post to follow up more detail or discussion.

    Basically a wiki I suppose. Maybe we should get a prot website up much like tankadin....Anyone got any space?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •