4.1 Spec Choices - Fire / Frost over Fire / Arcane

[Robula]

Hello Mages, I just wanted to ask you why you're choosing to spec Fire and Arcane in the coming 4.1 patch.

Okay, the obvious and first answer would be that Arcane brings incredible single target damage compared to Fire. But I don't feel that is a good enough reason to IGNORE the fact that Arcane requires different itemisation than Fire.

If you take a look at SimulationCraft (Don't flame, it provides excellent and usually very accurate results when comparing specs) you'll notice just how much Fire and Arcane are different in terms of stats and scaling. What the community hasn't seemed to even consider is the 4.1 buffs to Frost and just how much it has been brought up with other PvE raiding classes and specs.

Frost
Sure, it has it's problems but as does other. Arcane suffers greatly from movement. Frost is a little more forgiving having Ice Lance, Deep Freeze, Pet's Freeze and Brain Freeze procs thus giving us better mobility to Arcane Barriage spam.
Frost on a Patchwerk style fight is around about 1.5-2K DPS under Arcane. Patchwerk assumes no movement and DPSing one target at any one time throughout an encounter. That 1.5-2K DPS difference would be lost if you are geared to play Fire which; in current content is the most viable spec due to excellent AoE, fair single target damage and very good mobility.

I ran a few Simulations on the latest version of SimC (406-19 Developer Version) for both types of fights: Patchwerk and HelterSkelter. HelterSkelter in case some of you didn't know assumes single-target fight but with movement. Here are the results:

Patchwerk: http://robula.co.uk/wowshit/sim/caster_patchwerk.html
Helter Skelter: http://robula.co.uk/wowshit/sim/caster_helter.html

As you can see:
Patchwerk (single target, no movement)
#1: Arcane 30106
#2: Frost 28624
#3: Fire 25846

Helter Skelter (single target, movement)
#1: Frost 22876
#2: Arcane 21761
#3: Fire 21328


Looking at these results I would personally be using Frost for single target fights like Chimaron and using Fire for fights that include AoE and/or multiple targets over Arcane because of the loss of DPS to itemisation and movement. To me, Frost is a clear cut winner over Arcane, not to mention Frost is an INCREDIBLY fun spec to play over Arcane in a PvE environment.


What are your thoughts on this?
Thanks for reading, want to know how all of you fellow Mages feel about this.

Added
EDIT: For those who hasn't realised, my topic refers to the choice between Arcane & Frost as a PvE offspec for single target fights. Never at this stage am I worried about Fire when it comes to single target encounters. The purpose of this topic is to get an understanding of which dual spec combo would be most suited for current and upcoming content. Currently, Fire is not going to be replaced due to it's great mobility and AoE capabilities. That goes without saying.

[Swizzle]

Your Fire logs do not include DI, and are thus negated.

[Robula]

Your Fire logs do not include DI, and are thus negated.

Why would I include Dark Intent?
1) There are very few Warlocks per raid, average.
2) Mages aren't the first choice to buff unless specced Fire to benefit from periodic spell damage increase.
3) Periodic spell damage component has been nerfed from 9% to just 3% which already lowers values for Fire specced Mages.

If you want to be finicky on the chances that you'll have enough Warlocks in your raid and lucky enough to receive the buff I'll repeat the simulation with DI. I don't personally see Warlocks wasting a buff on a Arcane or Frost specced Mage over a sPriest, Moonkin or even Fire Mage.

[GT4]

Your Fire logs do not include DI, and are thus negated.

Considering there are specs which benefit more or at least as much as Fire from DI, there's no reason to give a spec any benefit just because it benefits from DI when looking at total raid DPS.

[Swizzle]

Why would I include Dark Intent?
1) Very few Warlocks per raid
2) Mages aren't the first choice to buff unless specced Fire to benefit from periodic spell damage increase
3) Periodic damage component has been nerfed from 9% to just 3% which already lowers values for Fire.

If you want to be finicky on the chances that you'll have enough Warlocks in your raid and lucky enough to receive the buff I'll repeat the simulation with DI. I don't personally see Warlocks wasting a buff on a Arcane or Frost specced Mage over a sPriest, Moonkin or even Fire Mage.

Fire Mages, Spriests, Warlocks, and Boomkins are balanced around having the buff so not including it is just a no go.

Also, it's not movement fights that Fire outperforms the other specs, it's on AoE. I can't tell how much AoE is going on in your parses, but all it does is misrepresent DPS potential.

---------- Post added 2011-04-11 at 01:36 PM ----------

Considering there are specs which benefit more or at least as much as Fire from DI, there's no reason to give a spec any benefit just because it benefits from DI when looking at total raid DPS.

Did I say Fire benefits the most from it? No, but DoT casters are balanced around having the buff, whether or not it gives them the highest potential DPS isn't relevant right here.

[Robula]

Fire Mages, Spriests, Warlocks, and Boomkins are balanced around having the buff so not including it is just a no go.

In the quiet words of the virgin mary........come again?

I really don't think that Fire Mages, Shadow Priests and Boomkins are balanced around having their very own personal Warlock per raid. Let's say you have 1 Boomkin, 3 Mages and 2 Shadow Priests in a raid; you would be expecting 6 Warlocks in that 25man too?

[GT4]

Did I say Fire benefits the most from it? No, but DoT casters are balanced around having the buff, whether or not it gives them the highest potential DPS isn't relevant right here.

Seems like you're missing the topic then. The topic is which specs are the most beneficial to play in raids in 4.1, not which spec does the most personal DPS when stealing all your raid's single target buffs available.
All you do when including DI is swapping the bonus damage from another caster to yourself, it's no additional raid damage.

[Omegasupreme]

All you do when including DI is swapping the bonus damage from another caster to yourself, it's no additional raid damage.

different classes benefit differently. It is for example more beneficial to have it on a boomkin than on a rogue [/sarcasm]

[skylla05]

In the quiet words of the virgin mary........come again?

I really don't think that Fire Mages, Shadow Priests and Boomins are balanced around having their very own personal Warlock per raid. Let's say you have 1 Boomkin, 3 Mages and 2 Shadow Priests in a raid; you would be expecting 6 Warlocks in that 25man too?

Anyone who's spent more than 15 minutes on the Mage boards around here knows not to listen to Swizzle in most cases. He typically just regurgitates information from other sources as he reads it, regardless of backing or community support. You're better off not listening to him.

[Robula]

Anyone who's spent more than 15 minutes on the Mage boards around here knows not to listen to Swizzle in most cases. He typically just regurgitates information from other sources as he reads it, regardless of backing or community support. You're better off not listening to him.

Yeah well, just annoys me that he's only shown ignorance and probably hasn't even bothered reading what I posted. I really would like to get some opinions on this topic instead of "It doesn't work". Yeah thanks Swizzle.

The fact that I am posting about Frost being preferred over Arcane for an offspec. I'm not saying anything about not using Fire.

[Swizzle]

Anyone who's spent more than 15 minutes on the Mage boards around here knows not to listen to Swizzle in most cases. He typically just regurgitates information from other sources as he reads it, regardless of backing or community support. You're better off not listening to him.

You need community support to realize that DoT casters are currently balanced around having DI? You would think if it wasn't the case, then DI wouldn't have been nerfed as much as it was.

[Robula]

You need community support to realize that DoT casters are currently balanced around having DI? You would think if it wasn't the case, then DI wouldn't have been nerfed as much as it was.

What do you not understand? I'm talking about the viability of Frost and Arcane! What has Fire spec got to do with anything here? I'm not saying it's being superseded by other Mage specs. Will you please, just go back and read my first post before getting on your high horse and worrying about something that is COMPLETELY off topic?
Thank you.

[Swizzle]

Yeah well, just annoys me that he's only shown ignorance and probably hasn't even bothered reading what I posted. I really would like to get some opinions on this topic instead of "It doesn't work". Yeah thanks Swizzle.

The fact that I am posting about Frost being preferred over Arcane for an offspec. I'm not saying anything about not using Fire.

I read what you posted, but I'm pointing out that you did the sims wrong which ends up skewing data. There is more to an encounter than just movement or no movement. If there are 2+ adds present, movement or not, Fire will be the strongest spec for that fight. If there are no adds, then Arcane is simply too potent to ignore, the results of the sims are actually odd.

For example, the specs used for everything but Frost are...well, I'm not going to go into why a 7/31/3 spec is bad, but w/e. Also, the sims weren't done under identical. Frost and Fire are done under a Troll Mage while Arcane is a Gnome. Yes, Gnome is the best Alliance race for an Arcane Mage due to expansive mind, but you should run things under identical circumstances in a sim when running comparisons. Also, the Arcane Mage is the only that is no where near the hit cap, whereas the other two are right there.

As to the whole DoT classes not being balanced around DI, think of it this way. If they balance all classes individually to do 30,000 DPS, DI would make a DoT class do well above that, making the class seem OP when in reality it's only a buff that does it. Therefore, to make sure classes do similar DPS, the max DPS a DoT class can do is attained via DI, thus making DoT classes balanced around it.

---------- Post added 2011-04-11 at 02:24 PM ----------

What do you not understand? I'm talking about the viability of Frost and Arcane! What has Fire spec got to do with anything here? I'm not saying it's being superseded by other Mage specs. Will you please, just go back and read my first post before getting on your high horse and worrying about something that is COMPLETELY off topic?
Thank you.

I need to learn to type faster than forum anger builds.

[Robula]

There is more to an encounter than just movement or no movement. If there are 2+ adds present, movement or not, Fire will be the strongest spec for that fight

Granted, that has already been said. That goes without a doubt.

If there are no adds, then Arcane is simply too potent to ignore

THIS is the purpose of my topic and I'm questioning this against Frost and the possibility that with a Mage geared as Fire valuing Crit/Haste > Mastery is going to perform even worse specced as Arcane which requires Mastery/Haste > Crit. Compared to a Frost specced Mage which uses Fire values just as well as Fire.

I am talking single target & movement, single target & movement, single target & movement. Forget Fire, forget adds, forget AoE.

Also, the sims weren't done under identical. Frost and Fire are done under a Troll Mage while Arcane is a Gnome. Yes, Gnome is the best Alliance race for an Arcane Mage due to expansive mind, but you should run things under identical circumstances in a sim when running comparisons.

I actually hadn't spotted this. It's a problem with the default CharDev profiles SimC use. I really can't imagine Arcane sacrificing almost 2% hit for other stats being an actual DPS increase, especially because of Arcane Adept.

[Keernan]

On topic. I like arcane but afaik since i like crit for fire, swapping to frost would prolly be easier since the gear will be pretty much the same? But if i get 2 full sets of gear i would go arcane since i do like arcane

[Swizzle]

If you're in a progression guild, then you make enough money weekly from raids that going to the reforger to swap stats around isn't a big deal. The only main difference between Arcane and Fire is one trinket and the random proc on the ring/sword, all other pieces are identical (sans bracers apparently).

[Deleted]

I read what you posted, but I'm pointing out that you did the sims wrong which ends up skewing data. There is more to an encounter than just movement or no movement. If there are 2+ adds present, movement or not, Fire will be the strongest spec for that fight. If there are no adds, then Arcane is simply too potent to ignore, the results of the sims are actually odd.

For example, the specs used for everything but Frost are...well, I'm not going to go into why a 7/31/3 spec is bad, but w/e. Also, the sims weren't done under identical. Frost and Fire are done under a Troll Mage while Arcane is a Gnome. Yes, Gnome is the best Alliance race for an Arcane Mage due to expansive mind, but you should run things under identical circumstances in a sim when running comparisons. Also, the Arcane Mage is the only that is no where near the hit cap, whereas the other two are right there.

^ That.

As Swizzle said, any fight where Fire can keep Pyromaniac up for a protracted period of time will see Fire completely obliterate the other two specs, as no matter what the theoretical difference between them is on a single target fight, 10% more haste will swing it easily in favour of Fire. While frost might be simming slightly higher than fire on helter Skelter sims, I still won't use it as a second spec to complement Arcane.

1. I don't put any faith in helter Skelter sims, as I simply don't think a numerical simulation can really accurately take the often random and wildly varying movement requirements of different fights into account.

2. Fire's AoE is utterly mental, and there are nearly always far more fights which require heavy AoE than there are which require extensive multi target add control. (Which is what frost excels at)

The simple fact is, sims can only take us so far. Currently sims are putting Beast mastery hunters as among the top 5 or 6 specs in the game, where in reality, on actual real raid boss encounters they are simply miles behind the vast majority of other DPS classes. So no, I will not be speccing frost in 4.1 - Arcane brings better single target damage, Fire brings better multi target damage and very good mobility too. Frost will remain the niche spec I use for very specific fights which require heavy add control. (We have no hunters in our raids so I am nearly always Frost on Cho'Gall for example)

[Robula]

On topic. I like arcane but afaik since i like crit for fire, swapping to frost would prolly be easier since the gear will be pretty much the same? But if i get 2 full sets of gear i would go arcane since i do like arcane

Precisely, speccing Fire/Frost would avoid having to go reforge every time you don't need the benefits of Fire.

[Deleted]

Precisely, speccing Fire/Frost would avoid having to go reforge every time you don't need the benefits of Fire.

Or just gather two gearsets? Sure it will take longer, but I am sure you'll be able to find various pieces that you can pick up that others don't want.

I raided as a lock in Wrath and had two totally different gearsets - one geared for Demo and delivering the highest possible SP raid buff, and the other geared for Affliction which had no spirit on it. Sure ICC was out for bloomin ages so I had time to gather the different sets, but there was some crossover, as there would be for fire and Arcane here.

[Omegasupreme]

I read what you posted, but I'm pointing out that you did the sims wrong which ends up skewing data. There is more to an encounter than just movement or no movement. If there are 2+ adds present, movement or not, Fire will be the strongest spec for that fight. If there are no adds, then Arcane is simply too potent to ignore, the results of the sims are actually odd. .

This is a very valid point... Both for pyromaniac running, the splash from 2 extra LBs (if adds are close to boss or not, another unaccounted factor), impact-combust, getting it ticking on 2 more targets etc.?

I am not arguing either for or against OPs notion of frost/arcane being viable, just pointing out some shortcomings in the sim.

I actually hope its correct as I think arcane is mind-numbingly boring to play (Fire is the most fun by far, frost is okay-ish)...