Who gets to raid?

[Griffon23]

Hey all,

I'm a raid leader of a smaller 10 man guild and we've recently started running into the issue of have just afew too many people on and wanted to raid at raid time. We have been pretty successful since mid-wrath and after the release of Cata we've had afew members stop playing WoW or take a break for awhile. After alittle recruiting we got a pretty solid group of about 13 people that come to raids. In the past we've almost always had exactly 10 people on but recently it seems like attendance has picked up and we have 11-13 each raid night wanting to raid.

So my current dilemma is trying to figure out the best way to rotate people in and out. So far I've been saying that if you sit out one night/week you won't have to the following raid, but this sometimes hurts us if we have to have our best players sit out at the same time if we've promised people spots because they had to sit out previously. Also so far tanks and healers have not had to sit out just because we don't have too many of them but we do have alts that could somewhat fill the roles if we wanted to sit a healer or tank just to be fair, but then once again this hurts the raid by having a not as geared alt trying to keep up.

So other then trying to get a 2nd 10 man going(which would probably not work, we're too small) are there any good ways to deal with sit outs/volunteers/raid accepts?

[Wilderness]

Rotate people in and out based on each individual fight based on what comp works best for the mechanics and/or what loot the boss drops. It does kind of suck to have to sit out a whole night but if you are in half the time you'll feel more involved and at least get to satisfy some of your raiding fix. If you have 2 dps casters and one got a good drop from this fight last week then sit him for that fight this week. If you try and make it even then you will always have problems but as long as you are fair about it and keep track of who sits out when (either mentally or an actual list) so that you keep things fairly equal then you won't have any issues.

[moode]

Make everyone make a loot list of loot they need per boss. Rotate people in for the bosses they need loot from.

If you still have too many then rotate based on raid comp.

We have 1 about 13 and have the exact same problem you do. we have 2 tanks, 3 healers, 3 melee, 4 ranged.

We make one melee sit each night and 1 ranged sit each night so that we have a 2-3-2-3 balance in the raid.

On progression nights we bring the best 10 for the job. If that means 4 ranged 1 melee then that is what we do.

You have to decide as a guild what your priorities are. If they are to progress then you sit the weak links on progression night. If it's to be fair to everyone then setup a rotation of nights off and move on.

[Furbul]

What moode said. For farm bosses bring the people who need the loot, and for progression bosses bring your best raid comp/players

In our 25 we run with a 27-30 player raid roster, and we always have 3-5 people volunteer to sit farm boss kills so others can get gear.

[Shartadin]

Make everyone make a loot list of loot they need per boss. Rotate people in for the bosses they need loot from.

If you still have too many then rotate based on raid comp.

We have 1 about 13 and have the exact same problem you do. we have 2 tanks, 3 healers, 3 melee, 4 ranged.

We make one melee sit each night and 1 ranged sit each night so that we have a 2-3-2-3 balance in the raid.

On progression nights we bring the best 10 for the job. If that means 4 ranged 1 melee then that is what we do.

You have to decide as a guild what your priorities are. If they are to progress then you sit the weak links on progression night. If it's to be fair to everyone then setup a rotation of nights off and move on.

I agree. This is a problem a lot of 10 man's face. However, if you don't run a bench, you're going to have problems. Striking a balance is difficult, but if you decide that progression is important, you can't worry all the time about hurt feelings, and you need to bring the people that will get the job done.

Getting caught halfway in between a "family guild" and a "progression guild" can be the death of a 10 man guild. You'll frustrate the good players by bringing the less proficient players to difficult content, who will eventually let their thoughts be known in a way the targeted players find insulting. Just try to balance it out to the best of your ability during farm content.

[Thickasabrick31]

Hey all,

I'm a raid leader of a smaller 10 man guild and we've recently started running into the issue of have just afew too many people on and wanted to raid at raid time. We have been pretty successful since mid-wrath and after the release of Cata we've had afew members stop playing WoW or take a break for awhile. After alittle recruiting we got a pretty solid group of about 13 people that come to raids. In the past we've almost always had exactly 10 people on but recently it seems like attendance has picked up and we have 11-13 each raid night wanting to raid.

So my current dilemma is trying to figure out the best way to rotate people in and out. So far I've been saying that if you sit out one night/week you won't have to the following raid, but this sometimes hurts us if we have to have our best players sit out at the same time if we've promised people spots because they had to sit out previously. Also so far tanks and healers have not had to sit out just because we don't have too many of them but we do have alts that could somewhat fill the roles if we wanted to sit a healer or tank just to be fair, but then once again this hurts the raid by having a not as geared alt trying to keep up.

So other then trying to get a 2nd 10 man going(which would probably not work, we're too small) are there any good ways to deal with sit outs/volunteers/raid accepts?

It depends on how comfortable people are with sitting. There are some people who don't care so much if they don't get to raid every night while others just log on for raiding. That being said, everyone wants to raid (it's just more important for others), so you have to keep that in mind also. If you have a few people who don't ever want to miss a night, I would consider setting up a second 10 man group. I would talk with your guild about the problem and decide where to go from there. I wouldn't advise you to kick people or just tell them you can't give them raid unless someone is missing because let's be honest, recruiting is a bitch right now. Today, you might have too many players and some of them will leave, but the next week, your long-time holy priest will say he's taking a break.

Another idea that might be fun is you could consider merging with ANOTHER 10 man guild to form a 25 man guild. 25s aren't any harder than 10s, but their coolness factor is much much greater.

[Griffon23]

I agree. This is a problem a lot of 10 man's face. However, if you don't run a bench, you're going to have problems. Striking a balance is difficult, but if you decide that progression is important, you can't worry all the time about hurt feelings, and you need to bring the people that will get the job done.

I totally agree with this, but our problem is we really don't have any players that aren't pulling their weight. We have 2 amazing DPS, then about 5 good DPS all around the same setup. Our two great players always pull 20k DPS(or sometimes more) while the rest are all hovering around 17-18k and they bounce around in DPS order depending on the fight or night. Unless someone makes a major mistake I wouldn't be able to sit them for progression because they all do well to be there.

We also have only 1 melee(a rogue who is one of those two amazing DPS) and all the rest are casters(and a hunter). I don't mind being ranged heavy at all, the only problem is we use the rogue so much being the only melee and helping with interrupts is nice(we don't have a DPS Shaman).

It's really an issue of the best way or system to handle who sits out and when. Since we don't always know who can make it and when we invite all and tell people that night who is benched and who isn't and just try to make the last person/people to sit out not sit out. The biggest problem with this method is nobody knows until 10 minutes before raid if they're sitting out or not. I tried using a Confirmed/Standby system once but often the people on Standby didn't show up and then if we were missing any Confirmed people we'd be short.

[Shartadin]

I totally agree with this, but our problem is we really don't have any players that aren't pulling their weight. We have 2 amazing DPS, then about 5 good DPS all around the same setup. Our two great players always pull 20k DPS(or sometimes more) while the rest are all hovering around 17-18k and they bounce around in DPS order depending on the fight or night. Unless someone makes a major mistake I wouldn't be able to sit them for progression because they all do well to be there.

We also have only 1 melee(a rogue who is one of those two amazing DPS) and all the rest are casters(and a hunter). I don't mind being ranged heavy at all, the only problem is we use the rogue so much being the only melee and helping with interrupts is nice(we don't have a DPS Shaman).

It's really an issue of the best way or system to handle who sits out and when. Since we don't always know who can make it and when we invite all and tell people that night who is benched and who isn't and just try to make the last person/people to sit out not sit out. The biggest problem with this method is nobody knows until 10 minutes before raid if they're sitting out or not. I tried using a Confirmed/Standby system once but often the people on Standby didn't show up and then if we were missing any Confirmed people we'd be short.

The people who don't show up when they're put on standby are kind of a problem. It's difficult to handle, but anyone who isn't showing up just in case isn't really interested in the progression of the guild. It's (the possibility of being benched) something you just have to be cognizant of if you're going to be in a "good" 10 man guild. Blizzard failed with flexibility, especially in 10 mans, in this tier, and badly at that.

Another option is to settle on 10 (or 11?) people and get people to gear up alts with the knowledge that for certain fights/achievements/loot, you may just have to go back later on once your gear level is a little higher and your comp won't be so rigid.

[Deleted]

I'm in a 10m social raiding guild. For our 'farm' runs we use an attendance system so that everyone gets a fair chance to raid. We maintain a fairly simple excel spreadsheet for this.

For our newly implemented progression runs we select the best 10 from however signs up to give us the right mix of melee/ranged dps, class balance, buff coverage etc. It occasionally comes down to who has the best dps if we have more than 1 person for a particular spot, but that doesn't happen often.

We don't move people in/out of a raid for bosses as most of our raiders have families and can only raid one night a week.

[Deleted]

Don't make promises. Ever. At all. Period. They WILL bite you in the ass. Tell everyone that you will decide who sits on a boss by boss basis and will swap people in and out based on class comp and loot needs.

You and your raids have to get used to the idea that things won't be 100% fair. I never ever sit my top 1-2 DPS for progression fights. For instance that rogue will always raid on every night you do. That's just the way it is, tough luck ranged DPS but that's our class comp and that's what we have to work with. If you try and focus too much on 100% evening things out you will drive yourself nuts and the raid along with you.

[kynd]

If you try and focus too much on 100% evening things out you will drive yourself nuts and the raid along with you.

This is pretty much correct. If people do not understand that either A. The fight is favorable to a different class, B. They just don't put out the numbers to make themselves indispensable, or C. Its just their turn to sit, well then they arent good team players and aren't thinking whats best for the guild.

[Kaliara]

Our best raiders usually have pretty damn good alts as well. What we generally do is pick an off-night and have a casual run. The best players on their well geared alts, anyone who didn't get in the main raid that week, and casual players who just want to see the content. They still get their raiding fix and some loot, though obviously it doesn't get as far as the progress raid does.

[Museigen]

No matter how fair you try to make it, people will find a way to complain. Had a similar situation in LK, to sum it up as short as possible the release of ICC made people come back after quitting for ToC. We had more than 10 but less than 25, after grabbing a couple recruits we had two steady 10 mans. Another council and I sat down and split these groups as evenly as possible, one group got the main tank and an alt tank. The other group got the offtank but also got our dominant healer to bridge the gap. The dps was split as evenly as possible, but a in the end group x out progressed group y and QQ followed. In a casual situation where you have underperformers, splitting up your few'ish good players to try to carry twice as many others usually results in two slow to no progression groups.

Eventually the QQers joined another guild they were booted from for lack of performance, whined to join back but we had a nice steady 10 man team of long-time wow friends...moral of the story, some times it works out for the best after it gets ugly so hang in there?

[Moonstra]

My guild runs casual in raiding. This means we often have between a perfect 20 raiders to 28 raiders (on good days we have had 33 actually show up, but this is uncommon).

We use an EGEP system, and those that volunteer to sit out are guaranteed effort points.

Needs are met first.

Such as we need 2 tanks per raid team, and 3 healers. If there is excess then it becomes a situation where the raid leader decides who will sit out (this varies, sometimes he sits out himself, sometimes our guild leader sits out, it's not uncommon to see our most geared sitting).

Those who are put to the side are on 'on call duty' as well. In otherwords one night I was a bad match for adds on Maloriak, and the other tank was not geared for adds either. I stepped aside for our raid leader (who is a DK) to tank the adds and to progress the team. I returned right after and downed Atrimedes.

now for our guild we also have 'anybody' raids. Anybody can make or join a BH raid to down Argaloth, or to down the Conclave of Wind in the Throne of the Four Winds (we have a guild kill on Al'Akir and we will slowly cycle individuals through to kill him, but the first boss is a free-for-all).

This allows the most easily farmed bosses to be open for ALL, and to allow progression raiding to continue.

[FluFF]

same here , we got 13-14 people , so called " so we have enough to cover every raid if someone can't make it "

over 90% of the time they all sign , or at least 12 out of the 14 -.-

[Deleted]

In a casual situation where you have underperformers, splitting up your few'ish good players to try to carry twice as many others usually results in two slow to no progression groups.

^ This is also good advice for any 10m guilds. If you decide to sponsor a 2nd 10 man in your guild do it for the subs and weaker raiders and keep your core together. If they're not happy, well tough luck. It's your job to cater to the core people who put in the most time, effort and ability.

[Deleted]

A lot of good advice here, one thing I'd add is to balance personality & performance & attendance

In your case, as mentioned above I'd never ever ever drop the rogue unless he offered, someone playing well and with good attendance is pretty much your ideal raider, if u had 10 of these (or maybe 11:P) you'd be golden.

If everyone is equal skilled, go for attendance and bench those with lower attendance. (tho this is ofc the social / casual vs serious / hardcore guild balance - which you kinda need to decide on as well).

If above are all pretty equal, go for some other individual factor. I think most ppl can accept being rotated out if you can explain your reason and they can't really find fault with it.

TDLR:
Prioritise keeping your "better" players happy.

[Deleted]

Make everyone make a loot list of loot they need per boss. Rotate people in for the bosses they need loot from.

If you still have too many then rotate based on raid comp.

We have 1 about 13 and have the exact same problem you do. we have 2 tanks, 3 healers, 3 melee, 4 ranged.

We make one melee sit each night and 1 ranged sit each night so that we have a 2-3-2-3 balance in the raid.

On progression nights we bring the best 10 for the job. If that means 4 ranged 1 melee then that is what we do.

You have to decide as a guild what your priorities are. If they are to progress then you sit the weak links on progression night. If it's to be fair to everyone then setup a rotation of nights off and move on.

We do exactly the same. Atm we have 6 healers, which in itself is amazingly, so 3 have to sit out. Ofc we don't intend to keep all 6, but for now we rotate. Sometimes we rotate simply because someone isn't up for the job, sometimes we do it from a loot PoV. Basically, if your raiders are all okay (which they should be) being rotated, it shouldn't cause you much of a hassle

[Paradoxx]

Armory everyone

Sit the gem//chant slackers. You'll have a couple

[odiodin]

^ This is also good advice for any 10m guilds. If you decide to sponsor a 2nd 10 man in your guild do it for the subs and weaker raiders and keep your core together. If they're not happy, well tough luck. It's your job to cater to the core people who put in the most time, effort and ability.

Because drama is fun, just kick the people you don't want.