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  1. #1

    [Shadow] Best Raid Gear Available - 4.1.0

    Removed from site.

  2. #2
    High Overlord bayi's Avatar
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    gratz on the list and thank you

    some mod please sticky this ^^
    ..: Character: Armory :..
    ..: Config: AMD PhenomII X4 955, 8GB DDR3 Ram, GF GTX460, 2.6TB HDD, Gentoo Linux :..

  3. #3
    Now updated with correct drop locations for ZG/ZA loot, and, the new neck and cloaks off of Al'Akir.

    Done! -- <3 Kel

  4. #4
    Referenced up top, there you go.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
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  5. #5

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop View Post
    Thanks for the quick update at the top of the forum, Kelesti!
    No problem! Who said I was completely useless? Mostly useless, I might agree. But completely? Nah.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  7. #7
    very nice! like to see that i have a few of these top 5 pieces myself!

  8. #8

    Arrow

    I don't agree with a few of the items in the list for example:

    4.Boots of the Ursine + Brilliant Inferno Ruby
    Zul'Aman: Nalorakk / Heroic-5
    393.7581 = 220 + 31.7312 + 60.6924 + 41.3345 + 40 {Mastery-to-Haste}

    6.Desert Walker Sandals + Brilliant Inferno Ruby
    Ramhaken - Exalted
    376.7806 (421.7155) = 233 + 73.8742 + 29.9064 + 40 + (44.9349) {Hit-to-Crit}

    I think there's a few of these scenarios in this list where you would be better taking the DW's because reforging to get hit is never going to benefit you if you have it already on an item and you need a fair bit of it to reach 17% so some items needed and it really skews the results you get because you can't just magic hit up if you don't take it into account properly in the items.

    Working them out purely on an individual basis is fine but then you can't get the 17% hit if you never account for it.

    I haven't actually done this but to validate what I'm saying if you took every number 1 item in the lists I highly doubt you'd be anywhere near 17% hit because you are reforging for haste/crit instead or taking items with haste and crit when you in fact need some hit items.
    Last edited by Charge; 2011-04-28 at 09:57 AM.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge View Post
    I don't agree with a few of the items in the list for example:

    4.Boots of the Ursine + Brilliant Inferno Ruby
    Zul'Aman: Nalorakk / Heroic-5
    393.7581 = 220 + 31.7312 + 60.6924 + 41.3345 + 40 {Mastery-to-Haste}

    6.Desert Walker Sandals + Brilliant Inferno Ruby
    Ramhaken - Exalted
    376.7806 (421.7155) = 233 + 73.8742 + 29.9064 + 40 + (44.9349) {Hit-to-Crit}

    I think there's a few of these scenarios in this list where you would be better taking the DW's because reforging to get hit is never going to benefit you if you have it already on an item and you need a fair bit of it to reach 17% so some items needed and it really skews the results you get because you can't just magic hit up if you don't take it into account properly in the items.

    Working them out purely on an individual basis is fine but then you can't get the 17% hit if you never account for it.
    List are made with the logic of pure calculations they are not tailored in each individual needs.

    So it's more of a general guide thing that "must to get" list.

    For example take all the #1 gear and sum the hit you're probably gonna end up terribly below hit cap negating all the gains that best gear have.

    I have the sandals and i'm gonna keep them in order to stay ~15% hit till i get some gear that will allow me to tweak a bit, that won't change the fact that according to numbers and weights Boots of the Ursine are better than the Desert Walker Sandals
    Last edited by Keosen; 2011-04-28 at 10:01 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen View Post
    List are made with the logic of pure calculations they are not tailored in each individual needs.

    So it's more of a general guide thing that "must to get" list.

    For example take all the #1 gear and sum the hit you're probably gonna end up terribly below hit cap negating all the gains that best gear have.

    I have the sandals and i'm gonna keep them in order to stay ~15% hit till i get some gear that will allow me to tweak a bit, that won't change the fact that according to numbers and weights Boots of the Ursine are better than the Desert Walker Sandals
    Totally agree, it's impossible to please all.

    Was just highlighting that these lists determine the highest DPS items more so than the best items for slots because they don't give enough weighting to hit/spi but then again I'm not sure how wonky they'd go if you tried to up the hit/spi weightings!

    Don't have time to check through it myself and I like these lists just to give me a rough idea of the items I need to be looking at and then adjust accordingly to what gear I already have.

    Good job on the list by the way!

  11. #11
    One thing I'd like to point out is that, if you ignore spirit/hit (since it provides 0 DPS gain once you are hitcapped; this is the same reason why my script defaults to reforging out of hit/spirit if it is on an item) are not included in the total value of the items that is used to rank them. The value of items including spirit/hit is within parenthesis next to the item. So for your example:

    4.Boots of the Ursine + Brilliant Inferno Ruby
    Zul'Aman: Nalorakk / Heroic-5
    393.7581 = 220 + 31.7312 + 60.6924 + 41.3345 + 40 {Mastery-to-Haste}

    6.Desert Walker Sandals + Brilliant Inferno Ruby
    Ramhaken - Exalted
    376.7806 (421.7155) = 233 + 73.8742 + 29.9064 + 40 + (44.9349) {Hit-to-Crit}
    Desert Walker Sandals have a PP value of 421.7155 if you include the spirit/hit, which is higher than Boots of the Ursine, and would put it at #4 on the list.

    I'm open to suggestions about how to make the list more usable, but, am limited to how it can be displayed in a forum setting (no sorting, matching only if has haste and no mastery, etc.)

  12. #12
    Fresh list has been posted taking in to account new PP values from the latest version of SimulationCraft. I'll be doing my own sims from now on since Newnoise has decided to stop playing WoW.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-02 at 09:33 PM ----------

    NOTE TO ALL: I'm going to recompute values for trinkets. Take this as an example:

    3. Witching Hourglass (Heroic)
    Blackrock Caverns: Ascendant Lord Obsidius / Heroic-5
    488.5926 = 285 + 203.5926

    This jumped because the new PP values of Haste and Spell Power jumped and dropped respectively. Many of you know that when I computed trinket values originally I assumed that when a trinket came off of CD it would instantly proc or be used -- obviously this isn't the case and I now believe it is worth the time and effort required to do some statistical models on the uptime based on best available information of proc rates.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop View Post
    Fresh list has been posted taking in to account new PP values from the latest version of SimulationCraft. I'll be doing my own sims from now on since Newnoise has decided to stop playing WoW.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-02 at 09:33 PM ----------

    NOTE TO ALL: I'm going to recompute values for trinkets. Take this as an example:

    3. Witching Hourglass (Heroic)
    Blackrock Caverns: Ascendant Lord Obsidius / Heroic-5
    488.5926 = 285 + 203.5926

    This jumped because the new PP values of Haste and Spell Power jumped and dropped respectively. Many of you know that when I computed trinket values originally I assumed that when a trinket came off of CD it would instantly proc or be used -- obviously this isn't the case and I now believe it is worth the time and effort required to do some statistical models on the uptime based on best available information of proc rates.
    Sweet...I was confused why the witching hourglass ranked so high....especially ahead of Theralions Mirror

  14. #14
    is there a list of the best combined items to wear normal and heroic modes?

    thanks for all this anyway

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by megar View Post
    is there a list of the best combined items to wear normal and heroic modes?

    thanks for all this anyway
    Full best in slot configurations are tricky to come up with for a number of reasons (especially for Shadow). Between the hit cap/not hit cap debate, being a Draenei (+1% hit), Human (+3% spirit), including hard modes v. normal, including Sinestra, Mastery v. Crit at different gearings, etc., it makes it almost impossible to have a consistent list. Just taking the highest rated PP items from my list won't get you a usable gear set, either, since you'll be really far below hit cap or not having set bonuses fulfilled. The best thing you can do is try to make a profile at CharDev, swapping in items until you have a good balance.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-04 at 10:02 AM ----------

    (Taken from a recent post on HowToPriest.com -- I thought that this would be of interest over here on MMO as well.)

    The Mastery Proc is really, really OP for Shadow if you use/abuse it the right way. I've started crunching numbers and have found that (using a preliminary model assuming you get an average of 1 cast/DoT tick per GCD, which is actually less frequent than in practice) if Theralion's Mirror has a 10% proc rate and your GDC is 1.25sec it will take, on average, 12.5sec to get it to proc and has an ICD of 100sec. This means that it takes, on average, 112.5sec between procs.

    Once the proc occurs, lets assume best case scenario -- you have MB off CD with at least 1 orb up and your DoTs are in a position to be refreshed. Casting MB takes 1 GCD (18.75sec left on proc), recasting DP takes 1 GCD (17.50 sec left), and recasting VT takes 1 GCD (16.25 sec left). SW: Pain gets refreshed on your next MF. Now assuming that you have a MB with at least 1 orb casted at the very end of the proc, your uptime of improved ES (with VT/DP/SWP also improved) is going to be 16.25sec+15sec = 31.25sec (specifically for SWP). Additionally, you can recast VT and DP within the last ~1.3 sec of the proc-affected ES buff, increasing the effective time that VT is improved by 15sec and DP by 24sec, giving you 46.25sec of increased mastery effecting VT and 55.25sec of increased mastery effecting DP.

    If you take the VT time (since the increased extra 9 seconds from DP being improved roughly cancels out SWP not being improved thanks to MF refreshes) and don't consider that you have not casted any MBs while the ES is up after the proc fades (as to not override the higher ES value before you can recast DoTs), you have an uptime of improved Mastery for 46.25/112.5 = 41.11%. This is more than the (currently) assumed 20/100 = 20% uptime on the list! With this value, the PP of normal Theralion's Mirror would be 321+296.925 = 617.925 PP, and the PP of heroic Theralion's Mirror would be 363+335.775 = 698.775 PP. This makes Heroic and Normal #1 and #2 BiS for Shadow. Yes, even better than DMC: Volcano.

    EDIT: Note -- better than DMC: Volcano as it stand with PP values right now. More in-depth theorycraft is happening over on HowToPriest

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-04 at 06:57 PM ----------

    Trinkets updated. Witching Hourglass (Heroic) has jumped up high because the PP value of haste has increased.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-04 at 10:33 PM ----------

    Re-simmed the PP value of the 2 and 4 piece set bonuses for T11, averaging the results for Patchwerk and HelterSkelter fight types.

  16. #16
    Just a question, Twintop. How did the stat values change so much between 4.0.6, and 4.1? I'd have assumed that the only thing that would have changed between 4.0.6 and this would be adding the ZA/ZG loot somewhere halfway down the list. I feel like I'm desperately missing something here.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  17. #17
    Couple of things that come to mind when I see those things about Theralion's mirror:

    What about the DPS you lose from not casting MB so as to maintain a "stronger" Empowered Shadows - is maintaining that "strong" Empowered Shadows worth it? Even if it is, you have to remember it's not one big DPS increase - you have to bear in mind the DPS lost from not casting mind blast.

    It's also worth bearing in mind that any other trinket mentioned(Say, Volcano) - people will also min/max their DPS with it - or they should. You should be recasting DP when you get it and before it ends, at the very least. (Imp DP > mindflay DPSwise, just impossible to maintain manawise as well as DP not being castable after you've just cast it :x)

  18. #18

    Legacy of Arlokk

    Concerning the Legacy of Arlokk staff, I believe the gem slot was for the PTR only...it doesn't appear to have carried over to the live servers.

    Edit: Also, I didn't see anything in the post concerning this, so thought I'd toss it out there. With the ability to enchant an Off Hand with 40 INT, you're generally not going to go with a staff, unless its a huge upgrade.

    Otherwise, great post, very much appreicate the work!
    Last edited by Goitter; 2011-05-08 at 09:55 PM.

  19. #19
    Quick question; is there a reason a lot of the reforging is OUT of spirit? I recognize that the PP in (Magenta) is to include spirit/hit, but reforging out of spirit to another stat (except to haste) usually shows as a DPS decrease unless you're really close to hit cap or over it.

    I understand that exactly what your lowest stat is at any given point depends on what gear you have equipped already, so is that arising just out of how complicated it can get?

    Which PP assumes the reforges out of spirit? Both, just one, or neither?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Just a question, Twintop. How did the stat values change so much between 4.0.6, and 4.1? I'd have assumed that the only thing that would have changed between 4.0.6 and this would be adding the ZA/ZG loot somewhere halfway down the list. I feel like I'm desperately missing something here.
    The other change was to DI. I think Newnoise was running SimulationCraft with DI enabled and Focus Magic off. I reran the simulations without either enabled due to the changes to DI and there being no guarantee that we'll have either buffs any more. Additionally, Newnoise was only running sims on Patchwerk fights; I ran sims on both Patchwerk and HelterSkelter and averaged the results (before normalization) since very rarely is there a tank'n'spank fight anymore. Since Newnoise isn't going to be playing/updating his guide anymore I figured this was as good a time as any to come up with my own system for generating PP values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priestlyone View Post
    Couple of things that come to mind when I see those things about Theralion's mirror:

    What about the DPS you lose from not casting MB so as to maintain a "stronger" Empowered Shadows - is maintaining that "strong" Empowered Shadows worth it? Even if it is, you have to remember it's not one big DPS increase - you have to bear in mind the DPS lost from not casting mind blast.

    It's also worth bearing in mind that any other trinket mentioned(Say, Volcano) - people will also min/max their DPS with it - or they should. You should be recasting DP when you get it and before it ends, at the very least. (Imp DP > mindflay DPSwise, just impossible to maintain manawise as well as DP not being castable after you've just cast it :x)
    I'm not sure how SimulationCraft handles those scenarios where a proc to Int or SP occurs. I'm pretty sure that that is factored in to the overall values of those stats, though. The difference between Theralion's Mirror and other trinkets is that the boost to our effective Mastery lasts far longer than the actual Mastery buff does because of Empowered Shadows. As for the DPS gain, that depends largely on playstyle -- do you cast MB when you have 0 orbs? Do you wait for 1+? For me, if a Theralion's Mirror (Heroic) buffed VT hits for 70k over its duration (58k non-buffed) and DP hits for 51k over its duration (42k non-buffed) means an extra 21k damage from DoTs.

    It would make up for some lost DPS from not casting MB and if you have 0 orbs up I'd say toss a MB+0 cast out there, but would need to subtract the damage your MF would have done instead from the total meaning probably a net gain (for 0 orbs). Would casting a 1orb MB make up for the difference? Probably a net loss (thanks to the lost cast of MF). 2 or more? Could be a wash or a DPS upgrade. The advantage to not casting while the improved ES DoTs are up is that over those 15sec of Theralion's Mirror improved ES is that you'll probably get at least 1 orb over the course and will be able to get a MB cast off to keep a normal ES up afterward for MF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuziza View Post
    Quick question; is there a reason a lot of the reforging is OUT of spirit? I recognize that the PP in (Magenta) is to include spirit/hit, but reforging out of spirit to another stat (except to haste) usually shows as a DPS decrease unless you're really close to hit cap or over it.

    I understand that exactly what your lowest stat is at any given point depends on what gear you have equipped already, so is that arising just out of how complicated it can get?

    Which PP assumes the reforges out of spirit? Both, just one, or neither?
    Spirit/Hit is the first target of being reforged to haste/crit/mastery. This is because hit is worthless once you are capped, and, many people attest to not getting hitcapped being a bigger DPS gain than being at a sturdy 17%. Something to note about this list is that it is a way of comparing pieces of gear on a per-slot basis so that you can quickly see if an item is an upgrade or not. A full BiS gear set is not going to contain the #1 or #1/#2 (for trinkets/rings) items on the list -- you won't be anywhere near hitcap, for one, without even considering things like Human's Spirit bonus, Draenei's 1%hit, Goblin/Troll haste (though the race used for simming is Troll), Worgen crit, etc.

    If there's enough of a demand for it I could post two lists -- one with spirit/hit being the default reforge target (like it is now) and another that reforges strictly based on PP value. Note though -- if I were to go this route, all crit and mastery would reforge to spirit and then you'd REALLY be over hit cap if you put together a list. Maybe reforge between haste/crit/mastery and never reforge in to spirit? You can see how this gets difficult to sort out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goitter View Post
    Concerning the Legacy of Arlokk staff, I believe the gem slot was for the PTR only...it doesn't appear to have carried over to the live servers.

    Edit: Also, I didn't see anything in the post concerning this, so thought I'd toss it out there. With the ability to enchant an Off Hand with 40 INT, you're generally not going to go with a staff, unless its a huge upgrade.

    Otherwise, great post, very much appreicate the work!
    I'll look in to and fix it. And you're right about the staves, but enchants aren't factored in to the PP values of items. I think I'm going to add a list of possible enchants for each slot on to the bottom of each section as a reference.

    EDIT: fixed. Thanks for reporting the error!
    Last edited by Twintop; 2011-05-09 at 01:52 AM. Reason: Clarification on the Theralion's Mirror scenarios. Fixed LoA

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