PTR swipe damage increase.

[Deleted]

And how would it really be different if you just delay your second..third..another swipe, instead of pressing in right after the first? Just swipe, pool some energy, swipe again. Or you're compelled to be GCD locked? When I switched from my Enh shaman to Assasination rogue it was hard not to use every gcd, but then I learned to pool energy instead of spamming abilities. Ferals use energy too, so I guess it's similar.

Also, developers could add a 2-3 second cooldown on it, and it would achieve the same result as self-restraining.

+1. Everyone else just wanting the cost reduction is trying to take the easy, don't-have-to-think-about-what-I'm-doing route. PvE Rogues dual spec Combat and Mutilate and change up their spec accordingly for when they need more single target or more AoE. Is it reasonable to expect that Cat can do both at the same level without having to go through the hoops of entirely changing spec (which for rogues mean a completely different gear set with completely different enchants/gems/reforging). I don't think so unless there is a "cost" associated to it, and that "cost" has to be skill. Lower cost = no skill, button mashing. More damage, same cost = think about what you're doing, when you're doing it, and how you're doing it. Being GCD locked or bumping 0 energy is not the most efficient, effective, optimal way of operating. In the grand scheme of raid fights, there is no difference between (using simple numbers) 2k damage one time in 3 seconds or 1k damage twice in 3 seconds, which is effectively the scenario people are comparing against. Get that bigger damage out in one action means you open up time to do other things, which is always a win.

[Beetlejuice]

You all miss the point here. Look at patch message before that. A lot of aoe abilities of other classes got buffed considerably as well. Either blizzard thought they nerfed them to much with cataclysm or they want to make heroic 5-man the aoe rush again that it was in cataclysm because to many ppl complained that they cant faceroll heros anymore.

[teddabear]

Blizzard is equalizing all AoE so it was a given that Feral would have to get a large buff. There is still a pretty severe problem that Feral has no efficient way to convert excess combo points into DPS which will get much worse in T12, especially with haste outstripping crit. Other than completely redesigning Feral mechanics the only way to fix that is to give a huge buff to Ferocious Bite or have haste effect Bleeds. I don't see Blizzard buffing FB enough to fix the problem so the only real fix imo is to have haste effect Bleeds.

[utopianh]

Of course I'm talking about the heroic content, and Feral cats are at the bottom of the dps ladder. And no, their scaling is crap as hell.

No one cares if you top the dps meters in your 5mans.

I've topped the meters in every 25 man guild I've been in, on nearly every fight, and all the guild's I've been in have been between 2nd and 6th on progression on my server for 25 mans. However, we aren't doing the high, high-end, and are just starting heroic content right now (in ICC, we never got Heroic LK, in ToGC, we never got heroic Anuberak 25). So my guilds have been pretty typical of what is generally defined as as semi-hardcore. Time and time again, the people who top the meters, are the best players. Class balance doesn't even begin to show up until high end, and the reason so the averages for cats are low have more to do with the way the stateofdps, and minor differences - our potential max dps in 359 gear is less than 5% below the top classes, particularly if we get lucky enough for Dark Intent (which happens on occasion if we have 3 locks show, or one of our good shadow priests isn't in the raid). The real issue is we fall dramatically behind in heroic content, which is a very slim portion of the total WoW population, and still not bad enough for blizzard to do anything except on fights we're actually being sat for (namely Heroic Maloriak). Everything else, all but the most ridiculous progression guilds let their ferals run and wouldn't bench them if they're actually skilled.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't count HC Maloriak as being the worst case scenario for cats (even though I was benched for our first kill). The aoe doesn't need to be sustained and there's more than 3min between the green phases. I have been waiting for some changes regarding single target damage for a while now to rid us of the mindless Shred spamming. Right now I have a feeling the only thing we'll get is this beefed up Swipe. Sure, I'm happy that we're at least being acknowledged, but I'd rather see some single target changes instead. Oh well, who knows what the future brings. I still have my hopes up.

[teddabear]

I've topped the meters in every 25 man guild I've been in, on nearly every fight, and all the guild's I've been in have been between 2nd and 6th on progression on my server for 25 mans. However, we aren't doing the high, high-end, and are just starting heroic content right now (in ICC, we never got Heroic LK, in ToGC, we never got heroic Anuberak 25). So my guilds have been pretty typical of what is generally defined as as semi-hardcore. Time and time again, the people who top the meters, are the best players. Class balance doesn't even begin to show up until high end, and the reason so the averages for cats are low have more to do with the way the stateofdps, and minor differences - our potential max dps in 359 gear is less than 5% below the top classes, particularly if we get lucky enough for Dark Intent (which happens on occasion if we have 3 locks show, or one of our good shadow priests isn't in the raid). The real issue is we fall dramatically behind in heroic content, which is a very slim portion of the total WoW population, and still not bad enough for blizzard to do anything except on fights we're actually being sat for (namely Heroic Maloriak). Everything else, all but the most ridiculous progression guilds let their ferals run and wouldn't bench them if they're actually skilled.

I'm not sure if the 5% is accurate but Simulationcraft shows 21% in 372 gear.

If both the 5% and Simulationcraft are accurate that would indicate Feral will be 37% behind in 385 gear.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/410/Raid_T11_372.html

[Sneakysnado@Gmail.com]

Mind Sear got doubled in damage as well already.

(Offtopic)It's base damage got doubled, it went from 350 to a massive 700.

Yours on the other hand ACTUALLY got doubled, from 335% to 670%

[Arielle]

Quite useless buff.

Feral cats are crap and in need of buffs, but single target damage buff + something that helps with target switching would be far more beneficial.

Hoping to get the old SR back, or something.

Wanting the old SR back is absolute insanity.

[daffie999]

Agree that it's ridiculous to say this should be an energy reduction instead. If the damage increase is too much it may be tuned down before it hits live. However, having more burst when it comes to AE is always good and something cats were missing. I'm surprised so many people said that their AE damage was fine, it's far behind almost every other class.

[Vlob]

My guess is it will go live at 100% and Feral will become the best AoE spec in the game and worst single target spec. It has been pretty well known that Feral AoE was problematic for 6 months now. The fact that they waited so long for such a simplistic fix does not bode well. Given Blizzard's history of band-aiding Feral I wouldn't assume they are going to fix Feral mechanics because of a new tier. However you never know, especially with the lack of feedback regarding all things Feral.

I'd like you to compete with a Demo lock.

[utopianh]

I'm not sure if the 5% is accurate but Simulationcraft shows 21% in 372 gear.

If both the 5% and Simulationcraft are accurate that would indicate Feral will be 37% behind in 385 gear.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/410/Raid_T11_372.html

Remove heroic maloriak from the statistics and the value is closer, but yes, we will be significantly worse off in 385 content, but I have no doubt when it reaches a level beyond 15% difference on normal level content that something will get done.

[littlepiggy]

I've topped the meters in every 25 man guild I've been in, on nearly every fight, and all the guild's I've been in have been between 2nd and 6th on progression on my server for 25 mans.

You're going to start dropping as you and your raid start obtaining the first few pieces of Heroic gear. If not, the DPS you're competing with are not very good.

[Deleted]

This is going to kill me, not that it will ever go live imo its just too much. Tigers fury + Beserk and Swipe spam is already causing alot of threat issues for me lol

[utopianh]

You're going to start dropping as you and your raid start obtaining the first few pieces of Heroic gear. If not, the DPS you're competing with are not very good.

I'm well aware, but high end heroic content is not often what blizzard balanced around unless it's a dramatic difference, or a majority of the player base is on that content/gear level, and they certainly don't balance around next tier, until that tier is happening.

[Deleted]

doubling the damage provides no benefits over halving the energy cost because when swiping, the constraint on the damage is not getting GCD locked, but the energy, so you sacrifice a possible 1 swipe per aoe 'phase' for far greater control over threat and damage.

anyone mentioning how this will alter maloriak heroic black phase clearly has not spent time on the fight. you have 5! adds, and you will more then likely be out of melee range 50% of the phase, and no guild that completes the black phase has any problems with the green phase when executed properly.

feral scaling as a whole is an issue, i joined my current guild soon after their first nef normal kill, and witnessed a great feral cat competing for top spots on various fights, now that we have all heroics clear, the kitty has 9 pieces of 372 gear, but his dps has increased by barely 2k since i joined. and everyone else has left him for dust

[Elunedra]

feral scaling as a whole is an issue, i joined my current guild soon after their first nef normal kill, and witnessed a great feral cat competing for top spots on various fights, now that we have all heroics clear, the kitty has 9 pieces of 372 gear, but his dps has increased by barely 2k since i joined. and everyone else has left him for dust

yeah i suffer the same issue and have bene sueffering it for a long time even in WotLK, at the beginning of new content i find myzelf top 3 sometimes even number one, but that is after i get a new weapon. :P

while the content progresses and the other dpers get thier item sets completed they will out dps me rather easely.

but seriusly shred does 450% weapon damage + 20% from bleed effect + 30% from mangle that is like 702% and swipe now does 670% ? i mean common anyone can see something went wrong here lol. and attack should never do more then 200% weapon dmg imo.

[tangedyn]

doubling the damage provides no benefits over halving the energy cost

Omens of Clarity.

[maxalyss]

Cat Swipe is one of the main reasons Feral has been so low on the DPS charts. For those keeping track Cat has gone from 5k behind Mages a couple months ago to 7.3k behind.

http://stateofdps.com/index.php?data...s=200&spec=dps

This will help with that and prevent Cats from getting sat on fights like Maloriak but I suspect the real reason it was fixed is the Bear AoE buffs made Bear AoE competitve with Cat AoE. A better fix would be a 60-75% buff and fix some of the core issues with the rotation like Shred being better than FB. Having Savage Roar be a little more meaningful would be nice as well. All the issues have been well covered in other threads so I won't go into detail again but if Simulationcraft is to be believed Feral is going to be in pretty sad shape at single target DPS in T12. A massive buff to AoE will help obscure the problem but is certainly less than ideal solution.

Any of you actually have a pretty well geared cat AND use swipe? I pull up to 37k burst while others do not even do half on trash packs. Are you kidding?

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 11:24 AM ----------

I'm not sure if the 5% is accurate but Simulationcraft shows 21% in 372 gear.

If both the 5% and Simulationcraft are accurate that would indicate Feral will be 37% behind in 385 gear.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/410/Raid_T11_372.html

People pay this stuff to much mind, do a heroic with my cat and if u can do half my overall damage I would be very surprised..lol at dudes like you.

[Elunedra]

Any of you actually have a pretty well geared cat AND use swipe? I pull up to 37k burst while others do not even do half on trash packs. Are you kidding?

yes in burst and whit zerg i can pull that off aswel but after it times out i end up like 10th on aoe dps meter as i am energy starved like hell. so yes whit this buff the aoe burst damage be insane but the overall aoe be decent.
btw we got a warlock pulling 80K+ on aoe packs

People pay this stuff to much mind, do a heroic with my cat and if u can do half my overall damage I would be very surprised..lol at dudes like you.

dude dont think you so awsome. id beat you anytime ! we try to discuss the topics here not our awsomeness

[Deleted]

so from 335% weapon damage. to 670% weapon damage ?

in that case i gues it starting to get close to the damge of mangle and shred or maybe higher ? but ofc it cost 5 more energy so i gues DPE wise it stilll be a lesser option. but if you het 2 targets or more i gues it be better then tap mangle rake :P

---------- Post added 2011-04-13 at 07:30 AM ----------

yes just like in ICC we will be able to kill ourselfs on aoe trash again lolz :P

Well you don't get combo points from Swiping, so still not good for 2 targets (I think, didn't do the math yet), unless they are both about to die.

30% of our single target dmg is our rip (40-50% on 2-3 targets with some skillful target switching). So swiping on two targets would increase our direct dmg dps but we lose the 30% dmg from rip.

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 02:59 PM ----------

I'd rather have it dropped to 35 energy cost but whatever Blizz wishes to do, I know better then to question it ;-)

However I do agree with the sentiment that without berserk and tigers fury on cooldown, you are effectively looking at a 3s cast time on Swipe.

---------- Post added 2011-04-13 at 06:55 AM ----------

Very happy berserk is off the GCD though! Will help a lot in PvE and PvP!

Without haste you gain 10 energy / second, so swipe with a cost of 45 energy has an effective cast time of 4.5sec.

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 03:05 PM ----------

And how would it really be different if you just delay your second..third..another swipe, instead of pressing in right after the first? Just swipe, pool some energy, swipe again. Or you're compelled to be GCD locked? When I switched from my Enh shaman to Assasination rogue it was hard not to use every gcd, but then I learned to pool energy instead of spamming abilities. Ferals use energy too, so I guess it's similar.

Also, developers could add a 2-3 second cooldown on it, and it would achieve the same result as self-restraining.

The big difference would be our "next attack free"-procs would only be half as good if they decided to half the energy cost instead of doubling the damage.

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 03:11 PM ----------

I'm not a druid myself, so I can't be sure, but according to the tooltip it his for 335% of the weapon damage. Doubling this would make it rather high. I know druid's weapon damage is rather low, because in kittycat you don't wear weapons, but still...It sounds like alot:P

Yes it is. but It has several drawbacks compared to other classes AoE. Fairly short range and high energy cost. For the rare moments that you have a lot of targets grouped up nicely, 1 Swipe will out dps any other AoE, but the feral cat will only be allowed a fairly shot AoE burst compared to other classes. This will be a VERY good change for fights such as Halfus, Maloriak and Magmaw (if you are killing the adds instead of kiting). But will not help the feral kick more ass in any other fights.

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 03:18 PM ----------

Blizzard is equalizing all AoE so it was a given that Feral would have to get a large buff. There is still a pretty severe problem that Feral has no efficient way to convert excess combo points into DPS which will get much worse in T12, especially with haste outstripping crit. Other than completely redesigning Feral mechanics the only way to fix that is to give a huge buff to Ferocious Bite or have haste effect Bleeds. I don't see Blizzard buffing FB enough to fix the problem so the only real fix imo is to have haste effect Bleeds.

Having haste speed up bleed = /drool...

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 03:20 PM ----------

Agree that it's ridiculous to say this should be an energy reduction instead. If the damage increase is too much it may be tuned down before it hits live. However, having more burst when it comes to AE is always good and something cats were missing. I'm surprised so many people said that their AE damage was fine, it's far behind almost every other class.

Correct. Can't think of a class which has worse AoE.

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 03:22 PM ----------

I wouldn't count HC Maloriak as being the worst case scenario for cats (even though I was benched for our first kill). The aoe doesn't need to be sustained and there's more than 3min between the green phases. I have been waiting for some changes regarding single target damage for a while now to rid us of the mindless Shred spamming. Right now I have a feeling the only thing we'll get is this beefed up Swipe. Sure, I'm happy that we're at least being acknowledged, but I'd rather see some single target changes instead. Oh well, who knows what the future brings. I still have my hopes up.

We find that we need a lot of AoE for this fight, and mainly for the BLACK phases, not the green ^^

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 03:26 PM ----------

doubling the damage provides no benefits over halving the energy cost because when swiping, the constraint on the damage is not getting GCD locked, but the energy, so you sacrifice a possible 1 swipe per aoe 'phase' for far greater control over threat and damage.

anyone mentioning how this will alter maloriak heroic black phase clearly has not spent time on the fight. you have 5! adds, and you will more then likely be out of melee range 50% of the phase, and no guild that completes the black phase has any problems with the green phase when executed properly.

feral scaling as a whole is an issue, i joined my current guild soon after their first nef normal kill, and witnessed a great feral cat competing for top spots on various fights, now that we have all heroics clear, the kitty has 9 pieces of 372 gear, but his dps has increased by barely 2k since i joined. and everyone else has left him for dust

So you would rather have a 22.5 energy free attack proc then a 45 energy free attack proc ^^?

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 03:29 PM ----------

Any of you actually have a pretty well geared cat AND use swipe? I pull up to 37k burst while others do not even do half on trash packs. Are you kidding?

---------- Post added 2011-04-15 at 11:24 AM ----------



People pay this stuff to much mind, do a heroic with my cat and if u can do half my overall damage I would be very surprised..lol at dudes like you.

No one cares about heroic dps... If you do more then 5k sustained dps in my pugged HCs I will not vote to kick you. If your dps is to low in raids you get demoted from a raider to a member in your guild ^^

P.S. Some AoE dmg done on Trash and bosses from my guildmembers:
Moonkins between 30-60k
Warlocks 40-100k (usually NOT 100k though, but it does happen ^^)
Mages 30-60k
Feral 20-40k
Depending on boss ofc, so doubling it seams like a good idea imo.