Y does AskMrRobot.com fly in the face of what EJ & MMOC guides say vis a vis reforgin

[Prentice]

I gotta ask, how close to right is it on me?
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/u...#v1-o41324C230
I thought I was pretty much BiS pre-raid, but apparently if I change most every gear I get a better stat weight out of it?

I wouldn't use MrRobot to identify a BiS list for you. It is building from the entire collection of items based on the options you selected. The set it suggests and the one you're wearing could be dead even. I would suggest using MrRobot to figure out how to reforge and enchant the best way possible. That is the strength of this tool.

[KeirAdish]

I wouldn't use MrRobot to identify a BiS list for you. It is building from the entire collection of items based on the options you selected. The set it suggests and the one you're wearing could be dead even. I would suggest using MrRobot to figure out how to reforge and enchant the best way possible. That is the strength of this tool.

ah, gotcha...
well then... never mind!

[Gredge]

my question for you is, why do you spell why as y? are you just lazy? or are you stupid or something?

on topic that is pretty sweet

Uh oh..internet police..

Go back to elitist jerks if you want to be that picky about short cut spellings.

[underdogba]

AskMrRobot has a good interface and the tool is intuitive overall, but the WoW theorycrafting knowledge guiding it is often completely laughable. I would recommend if using it at all to enter your own custom stat weights.

Here's a good example. When I put in a pally tank, I get 112.7 for parry and dodge and 100 for mastery. For a moment I'm wonder why it thinks pure avoidance is better, and then I notice that parry or dodge being 12.7% better than mastery for average damage reduction is prior to diminishing returns.

The fact that this tool doesn't take diminishing returns into account makes it essentially useless for figuring out anything to do with tanks.

[Prentice]

Since I made my post earlier in this thread, I haven't used MrRobot. I just loaded up my character, and it seems now that the tool is further off than it ever was before. Tank pieces and blue items are listed as BiS. Something went terribly wrong.

[Sting]

Well, at least he's using that short right, instead of people who seem to believe "y" means "yes".

It IS short for yes. Might be a regional difference though, on the EU realms I've NEVER seen somebody use it to say "why".

[Mousiest]

AMR is a tool to help improve your play. As with any tool, you need to know how to use it, and use it properly. If the tool does not work for you, or you cannot get the tool to work, then use a new tool until you get the desired results.

While I don't recommend AMR to anyone, I have used it once, and after some stat weight configurations, I was able to come up with a much more... economical reforging and gemming to get the most out of my Haste and Mastery. Without the knowledge of your own stat weights, this is a broken tool.

[Skytotems]

AMR is a great tool for players like me, the casual raider that has a job, wife few kids and a life. I load my toon in and it suggests what I should gem reforge and enchant, also the BiS list is amazing, are there a few things missing hell yes but this game is huge there should be a few things missing. It tells me where the items drop and all I have to do is queue and pray to the RNG gods. My best example was on my priest, Disc, had me reforge crit and not mastery as Disc, at first I thought WTF then gave it a try, low and behold crit is much better at my gear level for DA then mastery for my shields. You have to remember most of EJ theory crafting is based off BiS for your class and not pre raid, T11 but BiS available at complete end game and with only 158 or so guilds 13/13 I doubt all the people that are reading this form are BiS end game.

[Swol]

Hi, i have a shadowpriest named náraku on Eu-Darkspear, and now my guild wants members to use the AMR program, wich i did, but AMR screwed my 4set bonus, and wants me to reforge gem to 19,28% hit.......... Dont know how much the 4set bonus is worth tbh, kinda suck for SP, but going THAT high on the hit, is imo stupide and waste of stats....... Is something wrong with SP in AMR or.........???

Here is your optimized Mr. Robot link:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/e...3%A1raku#v1-z1

You have 18.79% hit in game! Mr. Robot is correcting your reforging to get your hit down to 16.76%, which is a good number. I know for a fact that you will be extremely hard-pressed to find an example where Mr. Robot makes an error optimizing a shadow priest... since I play a shadow priest and keep those weights up to date religiously!

---------- Post added 2011-04-22 at 12:02 PM ----------

Mr. Robot seems to disagree with just about everyone on the topic of prot-specced warriors and mastery. The preset weight of the stats dodge, parry and mastery have dodge and parry worth 50% more than mastery. Having run some calculations myself, in addition to reading what just about eveyone else has said on the matter, I think their idea about warrior tank stats are off. Good thing you can reset those values...but shame you have to.

Our stat weights are pre-diminishing returns. Mr. Robot's optimization algorithm calculates diminishing returns and will balance your gear accordingly. Once you have enough avoidance, mastery will become more valuable. We have an extensive discussion on tanking stat weights which is about 10 pages long, which includes research and discussion from many of the well-known tanking theorycrafters out there. The reason our tanking stat weights are different than many sources you are used to reading is because they are not correct!

---------- Post added 2011-04-22 at 12:05 PM ----------

I wouldn't use MrRobot to identify a BiS list for you. It is building from the entire collection of items based on the options you selected. The set it suggests and the one you're wearing could be dead even. I would suggest using MrRobot to figure out how to reforge and enchant the best way possible. That is the strength of this tool.

Why wouldn't you use it to identify a BiS set? Our protection paladin stat weights are extensively researched and calculated. The total BiS set will be a very good set of gear to shoot for. Of course, you have to keep in mind that a BiS set is only going to be BiS when taken as a whole. Especially with tanking where the optimization algorithm is taking into account diminishing returns and mastery in the background - an incomplete BiS set could lead to a different item being better for you with your current gear. We are going to add in options in the near future to help people pick upgrades based on their current gear. For right now, you can always equip an item by pulling up the item list on the "My Gear" tab and choosing the item in question. If your total score goes up, it's better right now.

[Deleted]

This site lost when I saw that expertise has a higher stat weight than stam for a DK-tank.

[Swol]

AskMrRobot has a good interface and the tool is intuitive overall, but the WoW theorycrafting knowledge guiding it is often completely laughable. I would recommend if using it at all to enter your own custom stat weights.

Here's a good example. When I put in a pally tank, I get 112.7 for parry and dodge and 100 for mastery. For a moment I'm wonder why it thinks pure avoidance is better, and then I notice that parry or dodge being 12.7% better than mastery for average damage reduction is prior to diminishing returns.

The fact that this tool doesn't take diminishing returns into account makes it essentially useless for figuring out anything to do with tanks.

Well, as I have responded above, you are incorrect about diminishing returns. Yes, the stat weights are pre-diminishing returns, but the optimization algorithm applies DR and dynamically adjusts the stat weights for dodge/parry accordingly. Could you give me any other examples of "completely laughable" theorycrafting knowledge?

---------- Post added 2011-04-22 at 12:09 PM ----------

Since I made my post earlier in this thread, I haven't used MrRobot. I just loaded up my character, and it seems now that the tool is further off than it ever was before. Tank pieces and blue items are listed as BiS. Something went terribly wrong.

Can you give me an example? I do not see any blue items or tanking items listed as BiS for ret paladins!

[Swol]

This site lost when I saw that expertise has a higher stat weight than stam for a DK-tank.

The Blood DK weights are carefully balanced to create solid tanking sets. Instead of looking at the weight - look at what is suggested as a result. The reason that stamina is weighted where it is right now is to create the proper gemming. Those weights have been modified and revised by ourselves and a few of our more interested and constructive DK tank users multiple times over the past month. The resulting optimizations follow all of the latest theory.

---------- Post added 2011-04-22 at 12:16 PM ----------

If you are an arcane mage don't use that site.

Why not? I have been meaning to re-visit Arcane Mages, and planned to do so this week sometime.

I hope you all are starting to get the point here! We do continuous and thorough research. If you believe there is an error on the site, jump over to our forum and make a post that explains why! We are dedicated to accuracy, and we have no problems with revising the site if someone can show us what the issues are.

[Deleted]

Since I made my post earlier in this thread, I haven't used MrRobot. I just loaded up my character, and it seems now that the tool is further off than it ever was before. Tank pieces and blue items are listed as BiS. Something went terribly wrong.

That's because by default it is set to Pre-raid, you have to do some clicks yourself to make sure its customised for you.

[Prentice]

Can you give me an example? I do not see any blue items or tanking items listed as BiS for ret paladins!

Please load up my character (which I just did this morning) and click on the Best in Slot tab. I verified that the stat weights are current. This is what you'll see.


---------- Post added 2011-04-22 at 05:32 PM ----------

That's because by default it is set to Pre-raid, you have to do some clicks yourself to make sure its customised for you.

If you look at the image or go to my page on AMR, you'll see that the pre-raid setting is not the issue.

[Swol]

You're really splitting hairs on me here! I'll bite and show some math, though:

The total score of the BiS set is 33722.37, based on the stat weights which we use from the latest update of Redcape's DPS spreadsheet on EJ forums.

If you swap out the Dragon Bone Warhelm for the Reinforced Sapphirium Helmet, the score decreases to 33713.83. I am not sure why you say Dragon Bone isn't BiS. I cannot find any BiS set better that uses a different helm.

If you change from Notched Jawbone to Relic of Aggramar, the score decreases to 33714.78. I cannot find an entire set that uses Relic of Aggramar which provides a higher score.

Equipping both Relic of Aggramar and Reinforced Sapphirium Helmet drops the score even more to 33706.24.

These changes are extremely small!! So small that one could rightfully call them insignificant. Mr. Robot is a perfectionist, though, and he will always choose the items that provide the highest possible score. The other items you can choose from will provide no noticeable difference in your DPS. I know that it can be annoying and kind of depressing when a blue item is just as good as an epic... but sometimes it is the case.

[Cerebes]

it doesnt do pvp I guess.

[Prentice]

Instead of trying to address your reply one piece at a time, I'll simply provide you with two different builds that are irrefutably better than the set that AMR lists as BiS.

http://chardev.org/?profile=98380 (off-set helm and T11 shoulders)
http://chardev.org/?profile=98402 (off-set shoulders with T11 helm)

As I've said in that past, AMR is a good tool for evaluating reforging, gemming, and enchanting. I just won't give the BiS lists any credibility. I wish I could try to help you guys fix this, but I can't. The last issue that came up with Impatience of Youth being your top dog(when it shouldn't have been) was something that I was able to help with. This appears to be a much bigger monster.

---------- Post added 2011-04-22 at 06:38 PM ----------

....... I figured part of it out. I failed to change the required expertise value from 0.065 to 0.040 (Glyph of Seal of Truth). After making that change, Dragonbone Warhelm gets replaced on the list by Helm of Maddening Whispers as it should. However, that's where the trip down the rabbit hole begins.

The BiS list now uses an inferior trinket (Impatience of Youth (again!!!)). The other trinket (License to Slay) is also equipped and I disagree with the value that it is receiving. Is your site making the assumption that the strength stack is active 100% of the time or are you factoring in any stack resets?

EDIT: Sigh. When adding the Glyph of Seal of Truth the value of the BiS list falls from the 33722 that you are seeing, down to 33507. I don't even know anymore. None of this makes any sense. All I can say is that the overall sets and the values they are being given are inferior to the lists that are truly BiS. Sorry I can't be of any further assistance.

[Gande]

Only question I wish to ask:

After patches which can drastically alter BiS lists (via the weights changing from class mechanic changes) how long will we see until the new weights are defaulted? Is there already testing from others on the test realms that is being drawn from or will we be waiting for live testing?

I'm just hopefully assuming there will be a disclaimer for specs that have yet to be updated stating its using a pre-patch model

[Xeones]

When I saw the title of this thread starting with "Y" I thought it was some sort of badly written spam add.

That really needs to be changed.

[DariusMDeV]

When I saw the title of this thread starting with "Y" I thought it was some sort of badly written spam add.

That really needs to be changed.

I know a really hippie shop that removes lice from people's hair without killing them using only organic goods and mechanical removal, you can pick nits there ALL DAY LONG! You should ask them for a job.