2023-24 NHL Season Thread.

[Garbles]

Thanks Grandma!
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympi...204431516.html

[Tradewind]

Thanks Grandma!
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympi...204431516.html

Grandma Backstrom is kind of a dick!

[VanillaO]

People aren't even considering Suter for the Norris on most sites I read which is fucking nuts. That guy is hands down one of the best in the league, as Armourboy pointed out.. he eats up minutes like nothing. Over 2 full minutes more per game than #2, and almost 4 full minutes per game higher than the highest other person on a team in a playoff spot... that is ridiculous.

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How ridiculous is it that our 4th line right now looks like Benn/Tavares/Bergeron... I don't even.

[Greeney]

People aren't even considering Suter for the Norris on most sites I read which is fucking nuts. That guy is hands down one of the best in the league, as Armourboy pointed out.. he eats up minutes like nothing. Over 2 full minutes more per game than #2, and almost 4 full minutes per game higher than the highest other person on a team in a playoff spot... that is ridiculous.

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How ridiculous is it that our 4th line right now looks like Benn/Tavares/Bergeron... I don't even.

I'm surprised Carter is going to be on the 1st line with Kunitz and Crosby, thought he would for sure play on a more defensive oriented line.

[draynay]

NHL break is neat, I was down visiting Catalina Island and spotted Darryl Sutter on the ferry coming back, nice to have a mid-season vacation.

[Rennadrel]

For sure but I'm not sure if Anaheim is even as close to as dominant and Crosby will be nominated regardless. He's the best player in the world and is dominating the point race. It shoulden't be the deciding factor, but it should certainly mean something for Hart considerations. The reason I personally would say Kessel won't end up in the nominations is that he's not a center. Having an elite centerman like Crosby, Tavares, Getzlaf, Thorton, ect is much more valuable to your team than a point scoring winger (I realize he's listed as a center but with that faceoff %, he's not a centerman). Those 4 centers score just as many points (Thorton falling off but still) and still have a defensive role. That's why I don't think players such as Kane or Kessel will get a nod. If Toews scored elite level points he would be deserving too especially when you look at that faceoff %, that's insane for a full time centerman. If a winger is going to win the award, they best be scoring just a godlike amount and having a meaningful impact on his teams success. I don't think Ovie has scored enough points to warrant a Hart win. For as many goals as he's scored, you have to remember he's -17. I don't always look at +/- as that important of a stat unless the # is something like that. 17 is big imo. The dude takes a stupid amount of shots too, of course he's going to score a bunch of goals with numbers like that. Shooting % isn't that high either but how can it be with almost 300 shots lol.

A guy like Suter probably won't get a nomination but I think he should be in consideration. He plays half the fucking game for christ sakes. To play that much and still have a positive +/- is pretty damn impressive. Without Suter, Minnesota is a 10th place team I'd say. You definitely notice when he isn't playing a good game too, when the Flames played the Wild recently he had a weak game and it was very noticeable.

Sooooooo just because he isn't a center means he isn't the best player on the team and despite the fact that he has the greatest impact on the teams success, he isn't a Hart candidate? That's some stupid ass logic right there. I am pretty fucking sure the Hart goes to the best individual on a team, not the best center or the best defenseman. If Suter isn't the leader for the Norris trophy there is something wrong and he sure as hell deserves a Hart nomination too considering how much ice time he logs and how much he has had an impact on the teams success.

Take Crosby away and Pittsburgh still has a good fucking team, same goes for Getzlaf and Anaheim, their teams are still damn good without them even if they wouldn't be dominant. If it weren't for Kessel being the best forward on the team, Toronto would be in about 10th in the East. Take away Kessel and you have a very average to under performing hockey club with Toronto. Position doesn't matter for the Hart, it's the teams best player bar none and there are only a few guys right now who stand out in that category, Ovechkin, Suter and Kessel, guys who have carried their teams on their shoulders through tough losses and continued to be effective win or lose. Kessel has turned into the kind of goal scorer every team wants. When fans were wanting him traded for Stamkos due to his inconsistency a few years ago, he started turning on the jets and playing harder, now he has evolved into a complete natural goal scorer who plays consistently.

[Armourboy]

Sooooooo just because he isn't a center means he isn't the best player on the team and despite the fact that he has the greatest impact on the teams success, he isn't a Hart candidate? That's some stupid ass logic right there. I am pretty fucking sure the Hart goes to the best individual on a team, not the best center or the best defenseman. If Suter isn't the leader for the Norris trophy there is something wrong and he sure as hell deserves a Hart nomination too considering how much ice time he logs and how much he has had an impact on the teams success.

Take Crosby away and Pittsburgh still has a good fucking team, same goes for Getzlaf and Anaheim, their teams are still damn good without them even if they wouldn't be dominant. If it weren't for Kessel being the best forward on the team, Toronto would be in about 10th in the East. Take away Kessel and you have a very average to under performing hockey club with Toronto. Position doesn't matter for the Hart, it's the teams best player bar none and there are only a few guys right now who stand out in that category, Ovechkin, Suter and Kessel, guys who have carried their teams on their shoulders through tough losses and continued to be effective win or lose. Kessel has turned into the kind of goal scorer every team wants. When fans were wanting him traded for Stamkos due to his inconsistency a few years ago, he started turning on the jets and playing harder, now he has evolved into a complete natural goal scorer who plays consistently.

Problem is its not really a matter of what we think or the way it should be, but the rather the way it is. The odds of a defenseman winning it is slim to none most of the time, and its hard to argue with the fact that if there is a center that is good on a team they are probably gonna get the nod most of the time.

Its not right, and frankly it weakens the trophy but there isn't much any of us can do about it.

[VanillaO]

If Ovechkin even gets nominated with his +/-, I'm gonna be kind of upset. Team has a -4 goal differential, he's -17. As I see it now, it will be limited to guys from Boston, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Chicago, Anaheim and San Jose. You can take out Boston and St. Louis and San Jose because none of them have a guy within 20 points of Crosby (and that's effectively what this award comes down to). So that means the MVP is likely going to come from Pittsburgh (Crosby), Chicago (Kane), or Anaheim (Getzlaf, maybe Perry, but unless he goes nuts in the last 20, I doubt it). People like to throw Ovechkin in, because he scores a lot of goals... as the rest of his stats show, I think that actually hinders his team and makes him not a very effective player (this year it's showing a lot more, anyway). Tavares is out of the conversation because his team is going to finish probably sub .500 (they will literally have to go 20-1-1 to probably make the playoffs in a wild card spot). Kessel is probably out of the conversation because he's not running away with the points race or playing for a team winning their division by a fair amount.

Honestly, if Crosby DOESN'T win the Hart this year, I think everyone is going to be like 'huh?'. It's going to happen unless he gets injured again. And ONLY if he doesn't manage to play after the Olympics, will a guy like Tavares or Kane or Kessel really enter into the conversation... if another player can separate themselves from the pack and be closer to Crosby than 3rd place, that's the only way I see there being any discussion.

In an ideal world, if the Leafs can continue their hot play, and Kessel can continue to average over 1.5 P/G, there is no way he doesn't enter into the minds of every voter out there. By hot play as a team, I mean getting like 28+ points in their last 20 games.

Also, the fact that Tavares is only -6 on a team with a -36 differential is kind of amazing. It honestly bothers me a lot that this dude wont' even be considered, when he is arguably the most important player to his team in the entire league by a long shot. They would be worse than the Sabres (that level of bad) without him. I'm talking like they MIGHT have 32-35 points at this point in the season without him being around.

[Rennadrel]

Crosby is 6th and goals scored and first in points, assists don't matter in winning games, goals do. You don't win the Hart for having the most points and if that is the logic of the voters then there is something wrong. I'd give the Hart to anyone other then Crosby if it were my decision purely because despite the fact that he is the best player on the team, he isn't the only player who helps his team succeed. Crosby was out a lot last year and the team still dominated pretty well, which leads me to believe that they aren't really that much better with him. And there is still a chance that someone beats Ovechkin to the Rocket Richard trophy, especially if he struggles at the Olympics and can't get his game going when he returns to the NHL.

[VanillaO]

Crosby is 6th and goals scored and first in points, assists don't matter in winning games, goals do.

You have said some downright ignorant shit over the years, Ren, but I think this might trump them all. How do assists NOT matter in winning games? If anything, having the most assists kind of helps prove that he's super important to his team. Even though he's 'only' 6th in goals scored, he's first in CREATING goals. Period. Whether they come off his stick, or he is the one who sets up the goal is irrelevant. He won't win because he has the most points, he'll win because he'll be like 10-20 points ahead of the guy in second. I'm not saying he's Gretzky, but do you remember the last time a guy was so dominant to the point that he was routinely far enough ahead that the Art Ross was wrapped up with 10 games to go? As an overall player, he's not the best in the league - there are better defensive forwards (Toews, Bergeron, Datsyuk), but there is clearly no one better than him in the league at producing offense. Not even close. He finished 4 points out of the lead last year in the shortened season - playing 12 less games then the 3 guys who finished ahead of or tied with him. He played 75% of a season and was 4 points out of winning the points race. Ignoring the fact that they were 28-8 before he got injured and 8-4 afterwards (77.7% win rate vs 67.7%), he is undoubtedly an incredibly important part of that team. I know Crosby likes to get shit on by most hockey fans for being an immense vagina and running his whiny mouth most of the time, but the talent is undeniable. I just don't even know what to say sometimes, man.... 'assists don't matter'... I'd like to find a site where they list how many unassisted goals are scored in the NHL... or even a stat site that somehow determines what the % of goals scored is that was clearly an individual effort. Are you secretly from South America and have no concept of hockey? How does a Canadian have such poor understanding of the game...?

[Greeney]

It all matters, but IMO it should be about how different the teams would look in the standings without said player.
Without Chara, Boston is a middle of the pack team.
Without Kessel, Leafs are mid to bottom team.
Without Price, Montreal is a mid to bottom team.
Without Bishop, St Louis is a bottom team.
Without Ovechkin, Washington is lower than Florida in the conference.
Without Tavares, Islanders are worst in the league.
Without Crosby, Pittsburgh goes from fourth in the league to sixth, probably still first in conference.


I can't say Crosby being more valuable to the Penguins in regards to the success of their team in the regular season than any of those other players, not even including Western teams. There are already trophies awarded for most goals/points.

[VanillaO]

This is why I think they should get rid of the 'MVP' award. It's rarely accurate these days and is just typically given to a player in the top 2-3 in scoring. Best offensive forward, best defensive forward, best offensive D, best defensive D, best goalie. It's kind of like how in football, the MVP is 100% going to forever go to a QB or RB (as long as I've been alive anyway), and even then most often it's a QB. Why even bother having an 'MVP' award? Would Tom Brady, Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers not be able to get 50+ tds on a team like the Broncos had? I think so.

I don't think Crosby deserves to be the MVP, but with the season he's having, assuming things remain status quo, he's going to win. This isn't my decision, it's an educated guess based on the recent trend of MVP winners. Unless someone can go on a huge tear to help propel their team to a playoff spot (I'm talking like 35-40 points in 20-23 games, and likely a team that was on the outside looking in, or in a wild card right now), I don't see anyone taking it away from Crosby. If Anaheim were still like 8-10 poitns ahead of everyone else, I would say it would go to Getzlaf or Perry, but they hit a cold streak and are now just 3 points up on #2 and #3 in the league. Unless some crazy ass shit happens, I just don't see how Crosby doesn't win with how things are laid out right meow.

I'd also like to say, I'm not a Crosby fan. I think he's a super whiny bitch... I'm just saying what I anticipate to happen. I'd like to be wrong... I would be delighted to see Tavares win above any of the guys on playoff teams.

[Greeney]

My mistake then, I thought you were arguing Crosby should get it. Agreed with the rest of it.

[VanillaO]

No, I fucking hate how MVPs are picked in sports like probably 3/4 of the time. They take the best team, and the best player on that team and don't think twice about it... it's fucking obnoxious. That in no way defines value in my eyes. That's taking the best team and being like 'oh well he's the best player on the best team, he must be the most valuable player in the league'. When in reality, the argument could be made that there are literally at least a dozen other players (if not a lot more) in the NHL who are more valuable to their team than Crosby is to the Penguins. Just on the Leafs alone, I would argue that Kessel and Bernier are more valuable to Toronto than Crosby is to Pittsburgh. Hell, Ryan Millers is more valuable of a player in my eyes than Crosby and he's on the WORST team in the league. Considering how bad that team is, to have a GAA under 3.00 and a SV% over .920 is incredible. That team literally scores less than 2 goals a game and allows just over 3 goals a game. Think about how bad that team would be if they had the Islanders' goaltending (and yes I'm aware Nabokov has the same GAA, but way lower SV%).

[Zeoni]

Crosby is so good Chris Kunitz is on team Canada because of him. Maybe I don't really care about those awards since the Flames won't have anyone in the running and haven't had anyone in awhile.

Question for Leafs fans, if Phil Kessel wasn't on the Leafs, do you not think anyone would step up and produce? Obviously not at the level that the Phil does but I mean Clarkson had 30 goals playing top line minutes in New Jersey. Granted JVR feeds off Kessel pretty well, but do you really think the team would just be that much worse? Especially considering everyone below Toronto pretty much are hit and miss teams that are streaky at best. I feel like Bernier has made the Leafs quite a bit better than last year.

From afar, I'd wager Bernier has been just as important than Kessel but that's just me. I only watch the Leafs on Saturdays and when I'm bored during non-Flames game nights. I hope he gets a Vezina nom which should happen since no single goalie has been especially outstanding so far. Idk Hart is kind of a delicate one because so many people can interpit most valuable. I'm apparently stupid for thinking an elite centerman is more valuable to a team than an ppg scoring winger. Hypothetically speaking, you could put Crosby on any (maybe not Alberta teams) team in the league I think and they would instantly become competitive.

Also be easy on poor Ren, he hates Crosby more than anyone I've ever seen (except maybe Marcelos).

https://twitter.com/Sportsnet960/sta...23908193820672

what a sigh of fucking relief, we're not gonna get Shultz'd!

[Armourboy]

I think the biggest problem is how they go about it. In my mind you should go down the list of every team in the league and pluck out the player that matters the most. Then you take that list and narrow it down based on what they provided for their team.

I would argue that as much as I can't stand him, Suter should be the MVP more so than Crosby, without him that team is in the pits. Without Weber this season we are probably down there with Edmonton instead of sniffing the playoffs atm. There are guys all across the league like that who are probably far more deserving than most of the winners each year, but because they don't score a ton or goals or aren't on a " winner" they get no love.

[Nazrark]

While I do tend to agree that there are players that deserve it far more than the usual winners. It is the MVP, so it is the person who contributes the greatest amount for his team's successes. For example, if the Wild were to top their division and Suter was a big reason why, he would win it. But since the Wild are a team that is usually on the bubble a lot. You cannot really award it to them, since they aren't moving from their previous position. Tampa didn't make the playoffs last year, but due to no small part on the play of Bishop, they are one of the top teams in the east. While it is an individual award, the team's success during the regular season has a lot to do with the choice.

[Zeoni]

It's also voted on by the Hockey Writer's Association which is kind of dumb since there's going to be obvious bias' in votes. That's right, Damien Cocks gets to contribute to decide who will win the MVP of the league! The awards are more of a hey you had a good year good job than a THIS IS THE UNANIMOUS MOST VALUABLE PLAYER! Because that's almost too hard to decide unless there's just 1 guy who has an amazing year and is above the rest. This year is actually pretty hard to decide because there's at least 5 guys that -deserve- to win based on their performance thus far. There's too many variables too; oh this guys team isn't even in the playoffs, this guys team is good without him, this guys team *would* be bad without him. As long as people who write about hockey get to vote on it, it's never really going to be a true representation. Crosby is likely going to win unless he gets rocked on the noggin again but it's not like he's completely undeserving. I'd say he's pretty damn valuable since he makes everyone around him an offensive threat while not being a defensive liability.

I also wonder how good Anaheim would be if Shultz didn't fuck them. And how good Shultz woulda been if he didn't fuck them. He may have actually learned how to play defense there :O

[Rennadrel]

I don't hate Crosby, I just hate the way the media has acted like he is gods gift to hockey and people have acted like he was the next coming of Gretzky when he was drafted, not to mention that so many people think he should get all the awards and recognition when there are so many other great players out there doing more for their teams without being a whining little fuckhole on the ice like Crosby does sometimes (that's right, we saw your true colors on 24/7 this year Sid, can't take a little bit of tough play so you have to shit talk other players behind their backs to compensate for the fact that you are a frail wimp who is too afraid to make a big check once and a while).

And the Hart should be a nominee by the players from each team and then the writers should be able to vote to narrow it down and the final 3 nominees voted on by both parties, I think the opinions of the guys in the locker room is what should matter and that is how you pick your MVP so it's not a pure pissing contest.

[VanillaO]

But look at what the players voted last year (and most years) for the Ted Lindsay award... same players. Crosby, Ovechkin, blah blah blah. They're just going to vote for the 'most obvious' choice too.