1. #13921
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Think about it this way. This is a negotiation, the owners have been on the defensive since the beginning because they know Fehr is by far and away one of the most hard line negotiators to ever represent a union in any business. He doesn't back down and won't advise players of accepting a deal that isn't fair to them, and that has been what has held a new CBA back for so long, fairness. The owners are literally taking everything from the players thinking eventually they will cave and boot Fehr out of his job as their representative. The man isn't stupid and won't accept anything less then fairness and he has every right to continue to hold the players back from accepting a deal because so far no offer has been a fair deal for both sides of this process.

    So the owners can sit there and stew and complain about losing money, if they aren't going to even attempt to make some concessions, and they haven't made any concrete concessions as every single one has been withdrawn, this lockout will continue. The players aren't stupid and they aren't going to get themselves locked into a CBA that doesn't allow for them to have any financial growth as athletes, nor are they going to sit back and accept restrictive free agency policies as well, I certainly wouldn't.

    There are a lot of people to blame for how long this process has taken, especially the union initially, but every time the union makes concessions and moves towards what the league wants, the owners change their mind because they didn't accept the deal. Right now the cards are on the owners table, they could have moved to take the offer proposed by the union the other day and ran with it after some slight modifications, but it seems like every offer the players make that is more in the favor of the owners, the more they turn around and give the players a big old "fuck you".

    Also, the owners walked away from the players after the players requested that Fehr rejoin the process, which screams to me that the owners, and it has been Bettman's intention all along, were intending to undermining Fehr's position in order to get a deal done.
    Lets not act like the owners wouldn't put those things back on the table, if they were willing to offer them once they would be willing again. When this thing started I sided with the players, as the owners original offer was ludicrous, but to say the owners haven't been willing to move is completely false.

    Already they have agreed to the 50/50 split, agreed to actually pay most of the make whole agreement, changed the terms of the length of contracts to allow players to get longer contracts, and there are several others as well.

    Sure the players have given up some things as well, but for me it always comes back to this, people are paying hundreds of thousands and in some cases several millions of dollars a year to play a game. When the global economy is bad as a whole, I find it a bit hard to stomach that you as a players are complaining about making what you make, for doing what you do.

    I still think the entire process has been hijacked by a few hard headed owners, and a few players trying to protect their millions. Meanwhile the rest of the owners and the largest bulk of the players just want to get back to playing hockey and making money.

  2. #13922
    If there were any owners who wanted to get back to playing, then why was there a unanimous vote of all 30 owners, in favor of a lockout? Sorry but no one who was supportive of a lockout at the beginning has a right to suddenly have a change of heart because they are losing money. Also, if there are owners that want to just get a deal done, then they need to step up and form a majority against the other guys and get a deal done. All it takes is 16 supporters to get a deal done that will make the players happy but still give the owners most of what they want. The guys who are complaining the most seem to be from all the rich teams, which is odd since there are 5 teams that make up a combined 85% of league revenue, all of whom are from the Original Six era (I'd assume Detroit is 6th on the list since they aren't in the 5). Even if there are 10 teams all making large profits and the rest are barely breaking even, the guys in the middle should be the one's leading the charge to get a deal done, since they are the owners most at risk of hurting their franchises long term.

  3. #13923
    Bloodsail Admiral Garbles's Avatar
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    You know the lockout has gone on long enough when these videos start popping up...

  4. #13924
    I'd just like to put a bullet between the eyes of that snide, condescending piece of stool. I have honestly never seen a human being that can be worse then me when it comes to being snide and condescending until Gary Bettman came along.

  5. #13925
    Herald of the Titans draynay's Avatar
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    oh man why did I watch that, people getting murdered by pucks and zambonis are the two things I miss most with no NHL

    now I'm sad

  6. #13926
    We should flatten Bettman into the ice in Glendale, so he can be a permanent staple and reminder of how much of a colossal clusterfuck failure the Coyotes have been.

  7. #13927
    Moderator Zoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    We should flatten Bettman into the ice in Glendale, so he can be a permanent staple and reminder of how much of a colossal clusterfuck failure the Coyotes have been.
    But if it's in Glendale's ice, how will it be a reminder since no one goes to see it?

  8. #13928
    Herald of the Titans draynay's Avatar
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    I would go see it

    normally I try and stay the fuck out of Arizona but I would go to see Bettman on ice

  9. #13929
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    If there were any owners who wanted to get back to playing, then why was there a unanimous vote of all 30 owners, in favor of a lockout? Sorry but no one who was supportive of a lockout at the beginning has a right to suddenly have a change of heart because they are losing money. Also, if there are owners that want to just get a deal done, then they need to step up and form a majority against the other guys and get a deal done. All it takes is 16 supporters to get a deal done that will make the players happy but still give the owners most of what they want. The guys who are complaining the most seem to be from all the rich teams, which is odd since there are 5 teams that make up a combined 85% of league revenue, all of whom are from the Original Six era (I'd assume Detroit is 6th on the list since they aren't in the 5). Even if there are 10 teams all making large profits and the rest are barely breaking even, the guys in the middle should be the one's leading the charge to get a deal done, since they are the owners most at risk of hurting their franchises long term.

    Just because you agreed with something at one point in time, doesn't mean you can't change your mind or stance on something. I'll be honest, it wouldn't shock me at all if we don't start seeing factions on both sides emerging, because lets face it, not everyone is worried about the exact same things. That however, is something that takes time, and it is not something that happens overnight. For owners and players alike there could be some serious issues in the future for ticking off your own side, so its not something that just * poofs * and happens.

    We already are starting to here that some of the players are ready to take what the owners have offered, and I wouldn't be shocked if there are owners feeling the same about what the players have agreed too. The issue right now is that neither side has grown desperate enough to start making serious moves, I think that time is coming shortly when both sides know they have reached the point where its either sign it or forget the season.

  10. #13930
    Bloodsail Admiral Garbles's Avatar
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    Theres a cutoff at 62 GM's for sponsors paying NHL full season sponsorship fees, any less means a dramatic % drop. 56 GM's (68%) 50 GM's (61%).

    This should be a good incentive for the league to get the CBA done before 62 game shortening. Practically no incentive if it gets past that point.

  11. #13931
    Brewmaster kabookiejoez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    We should flatten Bettman into the ice in Glendale, so he can be a permanent staple and reminder of how much of a colossal clusterfuck failure the Coyotes have been.
    I don't see why people get on Gary.. he is just the messenger for the owners. Nothing more.


    The whole thing is Players/Owners. And personally the minute they went and got Fehr, i was hoping shit would hit the fan.

    Besides WJHC and i got Moosehead season tickets

  12. #13932
    Who the fark is going to watch the World Juniors at 5:30 in the morning (or earlier)? Way too early for me to be getting up on my Christmas holidays. I hope to god TSN time shifts it by at least a couple of hours or airs it later in the day as a repeat. Doesn't help half the games are in the afternoon which in Russia is the middle of the night for us, and the Canada games aren't all at night time either. If they were 7:30 PM start times in Russia, at least that is a 10 AM start, not too early for drinking

    Also Bettman deserves plenty of hate for his total disregard for Canadian hockey fans and the fact that we contribute more to league revenue then 95% of the American based teams do, in fact only about 12 teams contribute to league revenue, 6 of which are Original Six teams, 5 more are Canadian expansion franchises and two others are American expansion teams. Every franchise in Canada is profitable, we have 7 teams that all make money and we account for roughly 23% of the total teams in the league. Doesn't that tell you something about how fucked up the system is? Bettman chooses to ignore us despite our thirst for more teams in this country, he persists to keep teams losing money yet adding another team or two to Canada would recuperate much of the financial losses certain teams have created in their existence in about 5 years were they moved here.
    Last edited by Rennadrel; 2012-12-09 at 02:25 AM.

  13. #13933
    Brewmaster kabookiejoez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Who the fark is going to watch the World Juniors at 5:30 in the morning (or earlier)? Way too early for me to be getting up on my Christmas holidays. I hope to god TSN time shifts it by at least a couple of hours or airs it later in the day as a repeat. Doesn't help half the games are in the afternoon which in Russia is the middle of the night for us, and the Canada games aren't all at night time either. If they were 7:30 PM start times in Russia, at least that is a 10 AM start, not too early for drinking

    Also Bettman deserves plenty of hate for his total disregard for Canadian hockey fans and the fact that we contribute more to league revenue then 95% of the American based teams do, in fact only about 12 teams contribute to league revenue, 6 of which are Original Six teams, 5 more are Canadian expansion franchises and two others are American expansion teams. Every franchise in Canada is profitable, we have 7 teams that all make money and we account for roughly 23% of the total teams in the league. Doesn't that tell you something about how fucked up the system is? Bettman chooses to ignore us despite our thirst for more teams in this country, he persists to keep teams losing money yet adding another team or two to Canada would recuperate much of the financial losses certain teams have created in their existence in about 5 years were they moved here.

    Sorry dude.. it isn't Bettman, It is owner/players. Both sides have equal part to blame in the lockout. Gary is only guilty of putting teams in stupid markets

    as for WJHC - dvr it?

  14. #13934
    Quote Originally Posted by kabookiejoez View Post
    Sorry dude.. it isn't Bettman, It is owner/players. Both sides have equal part to blame in the lockout. Gary is only guilty of putting teams in stupid markets
    Both sides have some blame in the lockout. There's no doubt in my mind that the owners are far more heavily to blame here. Why? Not negotiating contracts in good faith (if you sign Kovalchuk for 100mil, pay it). 5 year limits on contracts ("the hill we will die on"), because owners fucked themselves up here; They don't need the PA to even approve this shit (exception if it is made retroactive) as they can all just agree unanimously to penalize any team who signs a deal for over 5 years with the cost of their next first round draft pick. TADA, now we have 5 year contract limits through the NHL. Who gained most in the last three lockouts? Who keeps cancelling the negotiations every time a counter proposal is made? Why is this called a lockout and not a strike? The owners are locking out the players.

    How many lockouts happened prior to Bettman? How many have happened since? Sorry, I don't believe your notion that Bettman isn't a huge part of this issue. Let's keep in mind a big part of the reason that owners need to take more money from players; He took teams from profitable markets and moved them into bad markets.

    Want to see teams make more money? Let's move Phoenix to Quebec, Columbus to Hamilton or GTA, Carolina to B.C., St. Louis to Saskatoon, Florida to Seattle. Look how we just made teams that aren't going to make any profit in the near future significantly more valuable. But nah, let's just shit on the players, and have another lockout in 6 more years, until they give us everything we want.

  15. #13935
    Bettman is, in all actuality, an owner, so yeah he is as easily responsible for this lockout as anyone. Possibly even more so since he is also the commissioner. It is his job to see that the owners are represented properly and fairly in the negotiation process with the players. So far, he and Daly have yet to do that. They keep wanting more and more meanwhile they will walk away from any discussion because they don't want to deal with the guy who is actually doing his job in representing the players in getting a fair deal. It's unfortunate that Bettman and the other 29 owners are as foolish as they are, their lack of interest in talking and making progress in the negotiations screams that the possibility of having a season isn't going to happen.

    They constantly attempt to undermine the players union by trying to get Fehr out of the process, but the players have faith in him and wouldn't have hired him only to get him out of the way in order to make a deal. The players aren't stupid, most of the guys on the negotiating committee have been around the league for a while and understand what is going on in this process. When you have veteran guys like Jamal Mayers as part of the play representation in negotiations, it's guys like him who remember what happened last time and just how much the players got screwed then. They won't let it happen again.

  16. #13936
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Games have now been cancelled through the rest of 2012. Sources say that a disclaimer of interest could be coming from the union soon.
    http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/spo...terest-is.html
    That explains what it is and how it worked for the NBA. Same basic thing for the NHL players, it effectively dissolves the union and then the players would file an antitrust lawsuit.

    43% of the season has now been cancelled.
    Last edited by conscript; 2012-12-10 at 07:03 PM.

  17. #13937
    This thing just makes me mad, because the more you read into it, the more you realize this whole thing is basically being held up by what should be a few easily negotiable items. Sadly the owners are being hard headed and just flat out stupid. Nothing should ever be non-negotiable, thats the point of negotiating. I will say one the other side of things though that I don't really see an issue with the 5/7 year limit considering that currently it only affects just a small total number of players.

  18. #13938
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    The NHL is likely going to pull the Olympics off the table in the CBA negotiations and ban player travel for ALL international competitions. Here is Slava Fetisov on the issue:
    "I have a feeling (the NHL) will ban players' travel in all international competition," Fetisov told Russian paper Sport-Express, citing the Olympics and World Championships as examples. "(NHL Commissioner Gary) Bettman is not interested in anything except their own Stanley Cup."
    In potential good news though, the CBA meeting tomorrow will likely include federal mediators. So that could be something not awful.

  19. #13939
    Bloodsail Admiral Garbles's Avatar
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    The way I see it, diminishing returns, theres a little to be won here, and a lot to be lost, theres no excuse for a deal not to be done tomorrow

  20. #13940
    The league doesn't want NHL players going to the Olympics because it costs a shit ton on insurance to cover players who get injured outside of their own competition zone. Pretty sure it should be up to the players if they want to compete and they should be the one's covering the cost for insurance. Besides, it's not like many guys get hurt at the Olympics really, there isn't even a whole lot of really hard hitting between players.

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