The state of pug raiding in cata

[Deleted]

hey dude, you do know that people dont nessecarily pick only the top skilled players, they also pick friends.

[jsz]

I'm on Magtheridon as well. But that's irrelevent.

Your post is retarded. If you want to see all the bosses but you refuse to put in an ounce of effort to join a real guild, go watch a video on youtube.

[Fevr]

Just spend 5 minutes an do a real application. It'll save you countless hours of worthless pug groups

It's the first tier of raiding. Most people are under geared and don't bother looking up strats, therefore they fail. As new tiers come out, pugs will improve... marginally.

When you join guild you shouldn't expect to instantly be given a core spot. That's not how it works. It's not easy pushing aside people who have been around for a long time, to give the new guy a spot. Have some patience. jeesh

[Ifritus]

Just thought I'd weigh in on this.

My guild is 12/12 Normal 1/13 Heroic, with probably 2-3/13 coming this week. We have a very strong core 10man, a decently strong 22man and due to recent burnouts have been filling in 3/25 with recruit positions. On Saturdays we have alt runs, which essentially turns into 12-15 guild members and we open the other slots to pugs. Sometimes this turns into 2 10 mans or 1 25man depending on the composition.

This past weekend we did a 25man in BoT. After some difficulty on trash due to ignorant/pug CC'ers, we ended up one-shotting Halfus. When we moved on to Val/Ther things were such a different story. Of the dps, the top 10 were exclusively guild members, with the top pug being 2k below our lowest dps. Healing was a similar story. I understand hps numbers simply don't matter as long as you're killing stuff. However, with the exception of 1 pug healer, the rest of the healers were abysmal. The tank healing was handled by the guild, the raid left mostly to pugs with the exception of a Restro Shaman.

The Healing meter was very similar to the Dps meter
RShaman (Raid healing) 13.5k
Myself (Disc Priest --Tank healing) 12k
Pug Pally (Tank healing) 11.5k
Pug Healer 1--6k
Pug Healers 2-4 3.5-5k hps.

I say all this to say, we're totally open to progression and helping out the server. However, after wiping on Double Dragon for an hour an a half, it felt more like 15 people trying to do the job of 25. This is the reason that a lot of Pug runs at least on our server are largely unsuccessful. In heroic dungeons you can make it through with a bad pug or 2. The mechanics don't wipe the group. This is simply not true in a lot of Cata Raids (DD explosions, 5 people getting hit by pillar of flame, fail dps on Omnotron, ect ect.)

Pugs have always ended up with the better people carrying a couple. This totally fine and is the nature of a Pug run, people of varying skill levels. However, with the mechanics of many fights, the gear is simply not there in some cases to power through the amount of carrying that is needed. Keep in mind that we were on our Alts, and not our mains which may have ended in a different story. (Our main's dps equaling roughly 3x of what we saw in the pug runs). I think 4.1 will greatly help this, even though running those new dungeons might be a colossal pain for the first couple weeks.

Anywho, just thought I'd share my perspective.

[arden714]

The content is harder than Wrath, Pug player skill hasn't changed, so they don't get much past 3-4 bosses if they're super lucky.

Your views on how guilds work and the application process is all unfounded. Any guild that is remotely mediocre is going to require you to present some sort of knowledge check and it never hurts to actually get to know the people you play with. Expecting for them to carry you in a raid to "prove" your worth is a waste of everyones time and you can clearly see how and why that's not practiced.

[Coldkil]

TLDR? :
1.I won't put in applications for guilds.

Your fault. You're missing a big part of the game. First, you lose some perks that are quite useful; second, seems thtt you prefer relying on 24 people like you than on an organized guild raid group (principal reason PUGs suck bad).

2.I tried guilds that required no app but they didn't show me respect despite being a stronger & better player than their core members.

So, you tried bad guilds. If you want to achieve a certain level of playing, you put requirements. It's like arenas, when people asks partners with minimum rating experience because they want to reach high levels. In PvE this translates in more time to invest (sorry, but arenas require just a pitch of organization - your 2 friends cannot log today, you can do them tomorrow and don't lose anything). Also, you seem to be a dbag just because you are high on recount.

3.There aren't enough pugs going on on my server , when there are they usually fail or don't need my chars. (Things weren't like this in WOTLK...)

Read above. Also, Blizzard stated that PUGs in WotLK made content available for more people, but being in a guild and all the MMO feeling was lost. It was like playing a single player game with random people - more like Diablo online. That's not an MMO.
Another reason of PUGs being successful was the "no brain required" of raids. No aggro worries, healers with infinite mana and survivable mechanics. You could stay in whatever shit and you were healed through. The only worry was to beat enrage timers, but with a couple of good players, the problem was solved (i pugged a lot through TOC and ICC with my main the weeks i couldn't raid with my guild).

4.Does your server have a better pug raid life going on? If so whats your server so I can come sit in SW on a lvl 1 and see for myself.

No it doesn't. And i'm happy with it.

Other points:
- you talk about mediocre guilds, but they don't kill any significant boss. Mediocre means that they are near normal clearing at least, or do a couple of HM bosses.
- put the statement above, you claim to be better at DPS. Probably you are, but still underpar compared to real mediocre/good guilds.
- there are only 2 solutions: get a better guild, or wait until you overgear the content.
- anyway, if you don't want to put time in the game, expect to not see much of the content. The only thing that comes to me about you is that yopu want content/gear fast without effort. I'm glad you're not on my server.

edit:

I just think applications are obnoxious... they should just sit there and inspect your char and if they need your class/spec and you're gemmed/enchanted correctly just invite you in and start bringing you.... then just boot you if you turn out to somehow be a massive moron. It's ridiculous to ask for all this other crap on an application sent outside of the game itself

Lol you complaining about not bringing you in raids because you are not specced/gemmed correctly and kicking you for being an a****le? In what kind of guilds you expect to this not happening?

[Video Games]

My guild is recruiting a shaman, holy priest/shadowpriest, and a holy/ret pally =O.

Anyway, I don't see any pugs besides bh.

[BTF777]

Well you see I don't expect great raid success , I don't expect 12/12 or care to do that , I just like how in WOTLK you could get like at least 4-6/12 of ICC down like 20x a week w/ any random idiots and sometimes get a better group and have gone like 11/12 and at least feel like you could go to the raids at all but the pugs since cata are so much fewer in number and are doing 0-2/? bosses per raid so

I don't care to do heroic raids and I don't care if I don't get ALL the bosses down I'd just like to consistently get to go to the raids and kill at least... SOMETHING every week w/ ease

If I could just log on some random day at a random time , see a bunch of pugs going to BWD or BoT , join up with one , kill 2-3 bosses then fail/quit on a consistent basis I'd be alot happier w/ WoW

Also being in a serious guild that would want an app would probably come with them actually expecting me to be there on specific dates at specific times whether I want to or not , I don't like making obligations to a damn video game I like to get on/off the game when I want and do what I want , point is in WOTLK I could casually be on/off whenever the hell I wanted and still get to do a good ammount of raiding w/o failing completely

[Tradu]

OP

Raids are meant as a guild activity, and most guild apps take like 5-30 minutes to fill, and thats less time than you have to spend waiting for a PuG to fill. WotLK was the expansion where stuff was weird, not Cataclysm. Before WotLK current high-end content wasn't pugged, certainly not to the degree it was in WotLK, and thats how it should be.

[Cactrot]

Well you see I don't expect great raid success , I don't expect 12/12 or care to do that , I just like how in WOTLK you could get like at least 4-6/12 of ICC down like 20x a week w/ any random idiots and sometimes get a better group and have gone like 11/12 and at least feel like you could go to the raids at all but the pugs since cata are so much fewer in number and are doing 0-2/? bosses per raid so

I don't care to do heroic raids and I don't care if I don't get ALL the bosses down I'd just like to consistently get to go to the raids and kill at least... SOMETHING every week w/ ease

Then put in a damn application.
Your complaint is like moving into the middle of no where in the country, not having a car, being unwilling to buy one, and then complaining it's hard to get to work. It is not that hard to put in an app. If they have unreasonable questions, app someplace else. Your armory does not show your rotation. Your armory does not show your UI and let them know if you'll even be able to see the fire to get out of it. Hell, I like the apps that randomly mention to put something like "apple banana orchard" at the end, just to show you know how to read and follow directions, and half the people don't. No one wants to raid with people that can't be bothered to pay attention. Apps help prevent that and save them trouble.

You want to be lazy and not do that? It's fine. However there's a consequence for it, which is a lack of proper raiding. You can also be a bum and no ever have a job, but there's consequences for that too. Decisions, make them intelligently.

[azurrei]

I'm Alliance on KJ, but it's a fairly balanced server, so if you're Horde or prefer Horde, it shouldn't be too different.

IT's basically the same on the horde side...plus the added benefit of being able to laugh at the morons in a (terrible) PvP zerg guild named Ruinous.

[paloalto]

On my server, there's generally a three or four pugs each night clearing BoT or BWD (TotFW gets cleared all the time) on normal, usually 10-man, but probably a quarter of them are on 25. Probably a dozen or so others each night at least get halfway through their chosen raid dungeon. From all those combined, maybe 10 separate pugs will get 12/12 each week after two or three nights of raiding and replacing members (same two or three members running it is how it generally works here). From those, again, probably 1/4 are on 25-man.

One particular guy and his buddy have pugged their way to 6/13 Heroic, with a dozen or two other successful puggers downing Heroic bosses sporadically.

It's more than possible.

[Emaias]

TLDR Version at the bottom , probably should just skip to that...

I'm the kind of player who absolutley refuses to put in an application w/ a bunch of ridiculous info for a damn guild so as far as raiding goes for me its either pugs or join a mediocre guild.

I tried being in mediocre guilds , In 1 they could kill about half the bosses in each of the raids that are out now on reg mode... but for some reason even though my dps was stronger than 90% of their "core" members I was considered "back up" and rarely even got to go to their mediocre raids. Then I joined a different mediocre guild w/ only 1 10 man group and there just ended up being no spots for the classes I actually wanted to raid on because they already had established those spots w/ people of those roles.... anyway they could only manage half of the bosses on reg mode anyway as well... I pretty quickly just gquit that one and just gave up and joined a strictly social guild w/ a zillion members just for perks and chit chat. Which brings me to having no raiding but pugs....

On my server (Magtheridon) theres almost no pug raids going on ever (That aren't BH).

The few times a day that one pops up they seem to be guild runs that had a few no shows and only need like 1 or 2 members and whatever I'm on isn't what they need and by the time I could log onto something appropriate the spots filled. Or simply for no damn reason I'll PST and get no response at all.

Point is , getting into a pug raid since cata has been hard because they are few and far between , strictly seeming to be 10mans as well and then IF I even get in one traditionally they will just fail magmaw/halfus 3-4 times and all ragequit... with the at best pug groups downing magmaw in BWD , and best downing Halfus+Dragons in BoT

Its pretty sucky and I have resorted to lvling alt after alt for no reason just to kill time... I'm hoping 4.1 (or 4.2) and the stronger gear and possible boss nerfs will bring back the way things were in WOTLK where like 10 different pugs were going on constantly and actually succeeding to at least a decent degree

So how bad is the state of pug raiding on your servers? Is there any server out there thats constantly doing real pure pugs (Not 6/10ths of a guild run or something) and actually sort-of succeeding? I have started to consider finding a new server and making a new character there in hopes of actually raiding

TLDR? :
1.I won't put in applications for guilds.

2.I tried guilds that required no app but they didn't show me respect despite being a stronger & better player than their core members.

3.There aren't enough pugs going on on my server , when there are they usually fail or don't need my chars. (Things weren't like this in WOTLK...)

4.Does your server have a better pug raid life going on? If so whats your server so I can come sit in SW on a lvl 1 and see for myself.

So pretty much when I read this I hear "I think I am one of the top players on my server, yet I dont wanna put in an app because I think it's a waste of time." Dude, WotLK was a terrible expansion. The only fun content was ulduar which didnt last nearly long enough. The only hardmode boss in ICC that was actually hard was H LK. Yes I killed him at 20%; Suck it up and just app to a guild. Nobody wants to hear you QQ cause you cant make it in a casual guild. They are casual for a reason, they are friends, they dont care if they down content, and they play cause their lives are so bad they have nothing better to do then play a game they are not good at.

TLDR: Stop QQ'ing cause you cant ROFLSTOMP content, you wanna ROFLSTOMP it quit for 6 months come back and down something a tier behind you.

[InfernalKatana]

For the last few years, as the recruiting officer, I've run into a handful of "I don't do applications" people. You're actually the minority, most people don't mind spending 5-10 minutes filling out an app.

I try to stick to questions relating to the player, do you have a decent computer/internet, are you willing to play offspecs, can you make raid times, stuff like that. The questions might seem silly, but how the person answers them is a great indicator of education level and intelligence. I once had someone applying to my guild that said he was 35 years old but couldn't put together a complete sentence. How could I expect that person to be able to quickly understand and learn new fights? At the same time I've had apps that looked like the person really took their time and put effort into it and I've accepted invites when their gear was below the level I was looking for, based simply on the fact that I felt it was a great player.

I'm sorry you feel like applications are a hassle (or the more common excuse "it's not a job!"). You're more than welcome to have that opinion and play your game the way you want to spend your $15. However since I'm in charge of $375, I want people to put forth the effort of applications.

[Halicia]

Just generally speaking, a PUG will do worse than a guild group that have been playing together for a while

on the other hand, a good pug will generally perform above the average for the server's progression, in that they have less social constraints in kicking people from the raid and replacing the following week with someone that performs.

i hold little sympathy for someone thats not willing to fill out an app for a good guild, but then complains about the lack of progression in the bad guilds that dont request apps.

[Daetur]

IT's basically the same on the horde side...plus the added benefit of being able to laugh at the morons in a (terrible) PvP zerg guild named Ruinous.

Ahaha, that's not a faction-specific benefit. We laugh at them constantly too.

[chimmy]

naxx was the same way when it came out, terribles never got past mechanic check bosses. Also those brave souls that tried to pug Malygos, lots of keyboards were lost that tier

PuG success seems to only happen when you overgear and/or the content has been out for year+ and everyone knows the fights

2 weeks before cata pugs were wiping to Icehowl on spirestone because they didn't know how to dodge his charge

[Nume]

If you just go to a high population server, such as Sargeras (alliance side is what I play), you will find that there are indeed many successful pugs. I see pugs running basically nonstop on my server. I personally have cleared 12/12 and 1/13 (H Halfus) with pugs. I know of pugs that have killed H atra, H Chim, and H magmaw also. You just need to be on a server that has enough good players who are either in a similar situation to you, or simply high lvl raiders who want to gear their alts.

---------- Post added 2011-04-18 at 11:09 PM ----------

on the other hand, a good pug will generally perform above the average for the server's progression, in that they have less social constraints in kicking people from the raid and replacing the following week with someone that performs.

This is what I have found too. The fact that pugs are replaceable if they fail without worrying about pissing off guildies lets you often get much higher gear lvl/dps ppl than you would in a mediocre guild.

[dvstec]

TLDR? :
1.I won't put in applications for guilds.

2.I tried guilds that required no app but they didn't show me respect despite being a stronger & better player than their core members.

Maybe swallow some pride and just app to a guild you half like, and all your problems will dissapear. Cos you kinda sound like your making your own problems, ie:

Like some one who refuses to buy tickets to a concert then gets pissed off that they wont let them in and then complains the street musicians arnt as entertaining.

[Nume]

Like some one who refuses to buy tickets to a concert then gets pissed off that they wont let them in and then complains the street musicians arnt as entertaining.

Lmao, while I don't entirely agree someone has to be in a great guild to see content, I have to admit that analogy was pretty pro :P.