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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Baenesur View Post
    ... on Cho'gall, where I get to stand and nuke the entire fight (Except for phase 2). Pushing out around 18-19k dps ... So to answer your question from my point of view - Yes, we are indeed able to compete DPS wise. But dps shouldn't matter at all - Getting a kill should matter the most.
    Static one target fights have never been an issue.
    And indeed no, DPS isn't all - but it matters hugely for the success of a collective effort. If I can't AOE as efficiently as others because my AOE ability is broken, then imo there is problem.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    No, it just means they aren't going to blow other classes out of the water on specific fights like some classes can.

    My guild is 13/13 25HMs and our kitty does great. On all fights there are always one or two classes that pull ahead because of mechanics and then everyone else is pretty close, and our kitty is always in the middle or top of that.
    I'd be interested to know what he does differently. Last I recall the rotation now consists of Shred until you are about to doze off and every once in a while wake up long enough to apply a Bleed or Savage Roar.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tareum View Post
    Static one target fights have never been an issue.
    Actually for 4.1 we're simming the lowest DPS spec on stand still and nuke fights according to simulation craft other than 1h unholy which they've purposefully made trash, and disc/holy priest smite spam. Every other DPS spec in the game sims higher than us on a stand still and nuke fight, so when you add in multi target or AoE fights that other classes thrive on and we suck at, the gap widens even further.
    http://simulationcraft.org/410/Raid_T11_372.html

    Oh and here is the thread I mentioned earlier:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1839965107

  4. #44
    Fluffy Kitten Cambria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    I'd be interested to know what he does differently. Last I recall the rotation now consists of Shred until you are about to doze off and every once in a while wake up long enough to apply a Bleed or Savage Roar.
    I'm going to be very bad judging parses of kitties per fight between skills but:
    It looks like it massively changed per fight, probably due to specific responsibilities. Like, ODS which he did really well on was
    rip
    shred
    rake
    melee
    other
    mangle

    Other fights that he did really good on was about the same with a few changes, like switching rake and melee. He also tranqs, innervates and BRs when needed.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Furbul View Post
    It drives me absolutely crazy that ferals have it in their head (or raid leader) that you should be doing ANY front nuking at all on heroic Chim. Its so retarded its not even funny. Have the tank turn the boss and everyone profits. Stop being baddies!
    You know you can Shred from the front during his feud phase right?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by skybox View Post
    You know you can Shred from the front during his feud phase right?
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Move along. No feeding the trolls.


    Anyway, despite being one of the best geared raiders in my guild, my DPS always falls behind others. We're 8/13 HM (no H Nef yet.. sadface) and the ONLY fight where I'm top 2-3 is Double Dragons, and that's really only because our rogues are off in Theralion's Playland for most of the fight. Maybe the damage buff to Swipe will help a bit on fights like Halfus and Maloriak. But I find myself pulling aggro like crazy on Halfus, which usually results in me dying unless a paladin drops a Salv on me.

    I think as we get more and more Mastery with future tiers, we might find ourselves back on top. But right now, I hate mages and boomkins. ><

  7. #47
    He's probably thinking of normal mode where you can, although there's still no reason to tank him facing the raid.

  8. #48
    So just adding to the positioning requirement for Shred, is there any reason at all it exists? I've tried to see it but I just don't see why we have to stand in the ass of the target to be able to do our job.

    Simply put it's just ANNOYING

  9. #49
    There were some weak PvP arguments I believe. But really it's just a relic.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    The main complaint some Ferals have is that there is almost no dps difference between a good and bad kitty in Cataclysm.
    Ugh, that's the part that gets me. If I pay attention and play tight and keep everything going perfectly, I'm hitting at best 1k or so higher than when I just lolspam some buttons. I remember (and miss) when screwing up your rotation meant that your DPS dropped significantly. On the upside, it means that I can just coast through my daily heroic without actually putting any thought or effort in. :/

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by vaccine View Post
    There were some weak PvP arguments I believe. But really it's just a relic.
    They really need to remove that as PvP again screws with my PvE experiance. Split the game in two ffs already.

  12. #52
    The Patient utopianh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiphoof View Post
    Ugh, that's the part that gets me. If I pay attention and play tight and keep everything going perfectly, I'm hitting at best 1k or so higher than when I just lolspam some buttons. I remember (and miss) when screwing up your rotation meant that your DPS dropped significantly. On the upside, it means that I can just coast through my daily heroic without actually putting any thought or effort in. :/
    Except that things like timing TF properly, pooling energy for unheeded warning procs, timing berserk always with it, etc actually add up to far more than 1k dps (it's closer to a 4-8% increase in dps).
    God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh. ~ Voltaire

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by utopianh View Post
    Except that things like timing TF properly, pooling energy for unheeded warning procs, timing berserk always with it, etc actually add up to far more than 1k dps (it's closer to a 4-8% increase in dps).
    I would estimate the difference in WotLK as greater than 30% which is how it should be imo.

  14. #54
    High Overlord Vayro's Avatar
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    Feral doesn't scale very well so they get passed up as people get full heroic gear. As a feral druid with full 359 and a 372 wep I can say I out dps almost everyone who isn't a hunter. They have similar gear but once we all start getting full 372 they will pass me.

  15. #55
    The Patient utopianh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    I would estimate the difference in WotLK as greater than 30% which is how it should be imo.
    It was, but no other class in the game is remotely close to that, and blizzard isn't happy with that.

    They want basic competence with rotation alone to get you to around 80-90% effectiveness it seems with any class (of course that's just output against a standing dummy, most skill is involved with maximizing uptime, planning movement, planning utility properly, etc, and that will cause an even greater variance).

    It creates a major balance issue as well. It means a majority of the public is playing at well below the design of the class, while the few that master it are excelling. However, since there's the whole hybrid penalty involved they can't allow those players to be awarded better dps (or even equal) to a pure, so the top tier gets balanced behind rogues, while the majority of players is so far down it's ridiculous. It may be satisfying to your ego to do well, and top the meters as a hybrid, but it's not balanced, and it's not what blizzard is looking for.

    I'll be happy honestly as long as they eventually fix our scaling, and add a reason to use FB back in. I wouldn't be happy with needless complexity, I enjoy being able to focus on other more important things in the raid again like running the healers and actually watching what they're doing in fights.
    Last edited by utopianh; 2011-04-22 at 09:00 PM.
    God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh. ~ Voltaire

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by utopianh View Post
    It was, but no other class in the game is remotely close to that, and blizzard isn't happy with that.

    They want basic competence with rotation alone to get you to around 80-90% effectiveness it seems with any class (of course that's just output against a standing dummy, most skill is involved with maximizing uptime, planning movement, planning utility properly, etc, and that will cause an even greater variance).

    It creates a major balance issue as well. It means a majority of the public is playing at well below the design of the class, while the few that master it are excelling. However, since there's the whole hybrid penalty involved they can't allow those players to be awarded better dps (or even equal) to a pure, so the top tier gets balanced behind rogues, while the majority of players is so far down it's ridiculous. It may be satisfying to your ego to do well, and top the meters as a hybrid, but it's not balanced, and it's not what blizzard is looking for.

    I'll be happy honestly as long as they eventually fix our scaling, and add a reason to use FB back in. I wouldn't be happy with needless complexity, I enjoy being able to focus on other more important things in the raid again like running the healers and actually watching what they're doing in fights.
    If I remember correctly Blizzard said they were very pleased with Feral design in WotLK and their goal was to make more specs as complex as Feral. Obviously this is not what they did but I don't think you can say it's bad design. Apparently they decided not to invest the resources required to make it work.

    I agree it made it tough to put out good numbers on very technical fights but I enjoyed the risk/reward involved when deciding to go for damage or survivability.

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