Thread: pve buff?

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  1. #1

    pve buff?

    Anyone have an idea if assassination rogues will be getting a pve buff?

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    All that we could really use is a 200% spell crit damage really and probably polishing Vendetta. Right now we're mid road, we aren't bad but we are certainly not the top DPS. I'm consistent top 5 within my guild and meh depending on the encounter and obviously some of these buffs can affect pvp. Of course just nerf some of our shit as usual etc

    In addition to my comments, mutilate scaling is AWFUL beyond measures. I'll probably be combat within firelands with killing myself with killing spree =/

    I'll copy stuff from my other thread -

    * Deadly poison now scales with haste
    * We thought killing spree was a lack luster ability and has been redesigned so it does not kill your self and make you randomly teleport like an idiot
    * Poisons now deal 200% crit
    * Mutilate is now back to 50%+ damage
    * Vendetta is now a 1 min CD with 15 second duration
    * Rupture's damage has been increased by 300% for it being extremely terrible
    * Blade twisting now adds an exposure to armor whenever the Rogue ruptures, completely reducing the targets armor by 25% for the rogue for 5 seconds
    * Slice and dice now affects energy
    * Bandit's guile no longer drops on target
    * Redirect no longer has a CD because we're cool people
    Last edited by N-aix; 2011-04-26 at 05:40 AM.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire
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    And that is why you're not rogue class lead. Your proposed changes would have rogues at the top of the meters by 30%-40%. There would be no reason to bring any melee BUT rogues.

    Assassination has it's time to shine. It's single target dps scales lacklusterly, while it's AOE capabilities scale extremely well. Assassination will have it's place in firelands on any fights which involve a large AoE mechanic in which they need to be burned down.

    But as far as single target goes, it will drop behind combat in firelands.

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-26 at 04:25 PM ----------

    @OP: Sorry for not answering your question. No. No announced buffs for assassination or rogues in general right now. They have stated that 200% spell crit for rogues is on the table and is being discussed, but a change like that would require extensive coding and more then likely be a buff/change you'd see with the release of a new xpac.

    The obvious quick fix to assassinations scaling problem would be a buff/talent that makes rupture scale with haste, but then they'd have to deal with all the other bleed dependent class/specs wanting a similar buff/talent.

    You guys cannot comprehend, the massive amount of complaining these guys receive on a daily basis from every single class and spec whining about how they deserve this or someone else doesn't deserve that because they don't have it.

    Be content that hands down assassination is the strongest sustained aoe spec in the game, with the exception of boomkins.

  4. #4
    Poisons critting at 200% damage and Rupture critting for perhaps 300% damage (instead of the standard 200%) would help a lot with Mutilate's scaling issues and help the Rupture problem. I still don't think Rupture damage should be buffed to do very high (5k ticks) damage, tbh.

    No really buffs are needed as such, but Mutilate's scaling needs to be helped, Combat needs more of a use for Rupture and Sub needs quite a few fundamental changes (Combat too).

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxis86 View Post
    Be content that hands down assassination is the strongest sustained aoe spec in the game, with the exception of boomkins.
    Ha, what? That's like telling someone to be content that they're the best shoelace tier in the world. It hardly #&$#ing matters so who the hell cares if you're #1 at it?

    They won't let assassination fall too far behind combat...they'll buff it up in 4.2. Gone are the olden days where a class has one awesome spec and then a couple mediocre to horrible ones.

  6. #6
    Demo lock is by far #1 AoE DPS. Followed by Boomkins/Mutilate Rogues. But it's only relevant on one fight really.

  7. #7
    To be completelly fair, there's no evidence to back up a lackluster assassination scaling. Only time it was deemed a bit behind scale-wise was at wrath of the lich king launch when rupture was known to be eventually ruled out of the rotation (then tier-8 came around and we used it for a bit longer). As of today assassination seems to scale just as well as combat does, while subtlety scales somewhat better (due to sinister calling).

    So no, no significant buffs ahead since we don't seem to need much. Then again, rogues don't usually get many changes through patches as we seem to be well represented everywhere, perform quite good under every circumstance and have a very solid play-style.

  8. #8
    Well the reason that I say Mutilate scales badly is because it only scales reasonably through AP, and even then that is dependant on having a lot of Mastery (Which we will in later tiers). It doesn't scale well with weapons, which is a problem. Our gear is very crit heavy so having poisons crit at 200% damage would help us scale naturally. It's not a huge issue, but Combat is destined to pass it out at some point.

  9. #9
    Brewmaster Ferg's Avatar
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    I find it funny how within one tier (albeit, there IS an expansion in between), Assassination goes from "supposed to be top single target" to "be happy that you can AoE".
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Synexlol View Post
    Well the reason that I say Mutilate scales badly is because it only scales reasonably through AP, and even then that is dependant on having a lot of Mastery (Which we will in later tiers). It doesn't scale well with weapons, which is a problem. Our gear is very crit heavy so having poisons crit at 200% damage would help us scale naturally. It's not a huge issue, but Combat is destined to pass it out at some point.
    Well, combat scales poorly with mastery and is dependant on weapons while assassination gets more benefit from hit (and AP too) than combat does. Assassination relies on crit to generate more combo points and scales better than combat in that regard so the 200% crit is uneeded and unasked for; if GC addresed that was in lieu of streamlining the whole crit issue among classes (why do death knights spells crit for 200% mainly). In fact I don't see any way to measure what is 'reasonable scaling' as you put it: some specs scale better with some stats while some scale better with others.

    The thing is, every tier of content comes with gear that has a blend of stats which affect the scaling one way or the other; so far, current estimates place assassination and combat pretty close together and the only issue is how both specs could scale compared to every other class, which would be a very big task to compute (and somewhat useless due to how fast buffs and nerfs fly by to help balance).

  11. #11
    Combat actually scales better with AP, because it gets 15% (I think) extra AP, and it's damage is highly based on weapon damage. Also, it's Mastery is based on weapon damage.

  12. #12
    Nah, not really: you can plug gearsets with, say, 100ap difference in shadowcraft and assassination gains about 6% more damage than combat through that ap; mind you you cannot do that easily on its curretn UI so you may need to download the package and hack through it. All in all scaling cannot be measured just by reading through the talents and abilities.

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord AceofHarts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    Nah, not really: you can plug gearsets with, say, 100ap difference in shadowcraft and assassination gains about 6% more damage than combat through that ap; mind you you cannot do that easily on its curretn UI so you may need to download the package and hack through it. All in all scaling cannot be measured just by reading through the talents and abilities.
    on the other hand Combat gains oh so much more from weapons than Mutilate does.

  14. #14
    Which I already adressed previously. As I said, each tier of content comes with a blend of stats, weapon damage being one of them; if we were to gain only agility with each tier then assassination would scale better than combat but worse than subtlety (be as it may, the 15% ap from combat doesn't add up to the massive damage gain assassination gets from venomous wounds, poisons and envenom all together).

    But we don't only gain agility as gear goes up, we get some more stuff like haste, mastery, crit, hit, and, yes, weapon damage; it just so happens that all of them combine to a seamingly balanced scaling for the three specs (counting subtlety as being behind but scaling somewhat better enough to catch up eventually).

    Point is, as of today, there's no evidence of scaling issues that can be consistently measured: we can only gesstimate with the asumption that rupture (and venomous wounds thereof) is a major part of assassination and it doesn't scale with haste nor weapon damage wile most of the abilities from combat scale with all the stats (but not quite as well as assassination does scale with ap/agility, which is ultimatelly the stat we get the most out of).

    The only way to figure scaling out is plugging new made up gearsets into shadowcraft/simulationcraft/rawr and see how much dps the three specs gain. During shadowcraft developement, we did come up with those made up gearsets analyzing how many stat points we get on average with each tier jump (the ilvl formula is mostly enough to figure how many stat points overall are gained) and plugged them in to find out that the specs scale reasonably well (mind you, subtlety modeling isn't defined as well as the other two, but it serves the purpose for scaling computation).

    So, yes, it is true that we are to see rupture damage, a major point in assassination routine, that low; and it will be increasingly lower (percent-wise) with each tier. And we'll see how combat's main abilities remain well represented in the damage breakout. And eventually subtlety will see its weapon strikes hit for some high numbers (and some relatively outstanding amount of crits). But that doesn't mean they scale differently.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2011-04-27 at 10:33 AM. Reason: typo

  15. #15
    lol, he said "analizing".

    um, errr, nothing to see here, carry on.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
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    not quite Batman

  16. #16
    The only way I can see Mutilate scaling better with AP is at very high Mastery levels (ie. 372 gear). As you said, it's mainly guesstimates, but if Mutilate does scale better with AP (Which is definitely possible - I haven't run any reasonable amount of math on this), that's about all it has going for it in scaling, wheras Combat scales very well with Weapon Damage (Even more so as we gain more Mastery, but Mutilate scales better with AP as we get more Mastery too) and Haste too.

  17. #17
    Scaling of one stat has nothing to do with the amount of other stats the gearset has; scaling overall depends on the blend of stats we are to get in the next tier of content. Easily we'll be gaining some amount of agility, some new and shinier weapons and a bunch of other relatively worthless (compared to agility) rating stats.

    Assassination scaling with AP better than combat is farily easy to test in Shadowcraft. I'm using shadowcraft raw data from the engine, as the current UI doesn't allow to input stats (only gear pieces, enchants, gems and reforges). The combined stats in test_stats are those of BiS t11 fully enchanted/gemed and properly reforged.
    test_stats = stats.Stats(20, 4759, 190, 879, 1332, 197, 1170, 1998, test_mh, test_oh, test_ranged, test_procs, test_gear_buffs)

    assassination.py
    [...]
    instant_poison: 6204.88324642
    autoattack: 4616.14489666
    envenom: 3395.85219455
    deadly_poison: 2893.83657749
    mutilate: 2594.84802321
    backstab: 2506.73596729
    venomous_wounds: 1963.86827303
    rupture: 686.438196065
    ---------------------------------
    24862.6073747 total damage per second.
    Increasing AP by 1k (sometimes I think we should have implemented a dictionary here but we got used to it: AP is the third stat)

    test_stats = stats.Stats(20, 4759, 1190, 879, 1332, 197, 1170, 1998, test_mh, test_oh, test_ranged, test_procs, test_gear_buffs)

    assassination.py
    [...]
    26064.1616125 total damage per second.
    that's a 4.8328% increase for 1k AP

    Doing the same with combat
    test_stats = stats.Stats(20, 4746, 190, 1290, 716, 779, 1761, 963, test_mh, test_oh, test_ranged, test_procs, test_gear_buffs)

    combat.py
    [...]
    23639.2233158 total damage per second.
    test_stats = stats.Stats(20, 4746, 1190, 1290, 716, 779, 1761, 963, test_mh, test_oh, test_ranged, test_procs, test_gear_buffs)

    combat.py
    [...]
    24770.3510859 total damage per second.
    that's a 4.7850% increase for 1k AP

    It does scale better per point of AP, now we could do that for every stat and see how it goes, but it's boring as hell and I seriously doubt it'd lie within the scope of these forums (besides, I've been through it before, I invite anyone iterested in running the numbers). As I said before, what we did was come up with gearsets inflated with stats plausible for the next tier of content and from a strictly mathematical standpoint assassination scales a bit better than combat due to the big amounts of AP we should be getting, but the definite mix of stats we get is what will define how well both will scale.

    What I can do briefly is give the set of stats we use and point which ones do assassination or combat scale better from: In shadowcraft we use these stats: str, agi, ap, crit, hit, exp, haste, mastery, mh, oh, ranged, procs, gear_buffs, level (basicly stats, weapons, trinkets/tier, tradeskills and level in that order). Ultimatelly only the weapons and stats should be considered when studying scaling so I'm leaving procs and the like out of the picture.

    Assassination scales better than combat with strenght (not like we get more than that from the chest enchant and blessing of kings anyway), agility, ap (most of it coming from agility), crit, hit and mastery.
    Combat scales better with expertise, haste and weapon dps.
    So, all in all, after reforges of stats with softcaps, combat scales with haste (and not too much better than assassination tbh) and weapons (main hand mainly) whereas assassination scales better with agility, mastery and crit.

    It is true that the weapon slot is in itself the biggest upgrade any rogue spec can get. That is because of the big amount of stats that come with them and to a bigger extent the damage range (weapon dps). In fact mh weapon slots (dps and stats) can easily up the output by ~2% each tier but it's not enough to compete with the really big amount of stats we get from every other non weapon piece. If the next tier of content comes with a lot of haste and negative mastery in some gear pieces then assassination may scale a tiny bit worse than combat.

    To tie this in with the topic at hand (pve assassination buffs): so far they are not needed, not the 200%crit damage, not the rupture buff (admitedly it looks really bad on recount but the power of rupture is on the venomous side of it). In fact when assassination was deemed to scale worse than combat (wrath of the lich king launch) the spec was able to top metters all through out an expansion and the only time combat was better was during ToC, due to burst, cleaves and switch target being needed in heroic mode (although assassination was still technically better for single target mode). It can be argued that assassination remaining competitive was done through some non expected changes (tier 8 with rupture crits and the poison overhaul prior to t10 content) but neither of those were buffs to the spec.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2011-04-27 at 03:04 PM. Reason: completeness

  18. #18
    Scarab Lord AceofHarts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    Scaling of one stat has nothing to do with the amount of other stats the gearset has; scaling overall depends on the blend of stats we are to get in the next tier of content. Easily we'll be gaining some amount of agility, some new and shinier weapons and a bunch of other relatively worthless (compared to agility) rating stats.

    Assassination scaling with AP better than combat is farily easy to test in Shadowcraft. I'm using shadowcraft raw data from the engine, as the current UI doesn't allow to input stats (only gear pieces, enchants, gems and reforges). The combined stats in test_stats are those of BiS t11 fully enchanted/gemed and properly reforged.


    Increasing AP by 1k (sometimes I think we should have implemented a dictionary here but we got used to it: AP is the third stat)


    that's a 4.8328% increase for 1k AP

    Doing the same with combat


    that's a 4.7850% increase for 1k AP

    It does scale better per point of AP, now we could do that for every stat and see how it goes, but it's boring as hell and I seriously doubt it'd lie within the scope of these forums (besides, I've been through it before, I invite anyone iterested in running the numbers). As I said before, what we did was come up with gearsets inflated with stats plausible for the next tier of content and from a strictly mathematical standpoint assassination scales a bit better than combat due to the big amounts of AP we should be getting, but the definite mix of stats we get is what will define how well both will scale.

    What I can do briefly is give the set of stats we use and point which ones do assassination or combat scale better from: In shadowcraft we use these stats: str, agi, ap, crit, hit, exp, haste, mastery, mh, oh, ranged, procs, gear_buffs, level (basicly stats, weapons, trinkets/tier, tradeskills and level in that order). Ultimatelly only the weapons and stats should be considered when studying scaling so I'm leaving procs and the like out of the picture.

    Assassination scales better than combat with strenght (not like we get more than that from the chest enchant and blessing of kings anyway), agility, ap (most of it coming from agility), crit, hit and mastery.
    Combat scales better with expertise, haste and weapon dps.
    So, all in all, after reforges of stats with softcaps, combat scales with haste (and not too much better than assassination tbh) and weapons (main hand mainly) whereas assassination scales better with agility, mastery and crit.

    It is true that the weapon slot is in itself the biggest upgrade any rogue spec can get. That is because of the big amount of stats that come with them and to a bigger extent the damage range (weapon dps). In fact mh weapon slots (dps and stats) can easily up the output by ~2% each tier but it's not enough to compete with the really big amount of stats we get from every other non weapon piece. If the next tier of content comes with a lot of haste and negative mastery in some gear pieces then assassination may scale a tiny bit worse than combat.

    To tie this in with the topic at hand (pve assassination buffs): so far they are not needed, not the 200%crit damage, not the rupture buff (admitedly it looks really bad on recount but the power of rupture is on the venomous side of it). In fact when assassination was deemed to scale worse than combat (wrath of the lich king launch) the spec was able to top metters all through out an expansion and the only time combat was better was during ToC, due to burst, cleaves and switch target being needed in heroic mode (although assassination was still technically better for single target mode). It can be argued that assassination remaining competitive was done through some non expected changes (tier 8 with rupture crits and the poison overhaul prior to t10 content) but neither of those were buffs to the spec.

    Assassination was topping meters in T7? this is news to me.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by marcelos11 View Post
    Assassination was topping meters in T7? this is news to me.
    Broken HAT was, which is kind of out of the question. And to be perfectly fair, t7 content wasn't preciselly competitive.

  20. #20
    I'm not going to dispute what you've said/done. I think that we're best to just see how the stats/scaling changes next tier (More mastery making hit better for combat, more Mastery making AP better for Mutilate etc). I too don't think that there's any worry about Mutilate at the moment, I was simply worried that it would start to fall behind due to scaling, which may not be the case at all.

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