1. #30461
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post

    So... EVE?
    no

    /10 char

  2. #30462
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    no

    /10 char
    Alright. That was just my suggestion of a well made sandbox. *shrug*
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  3. #30463
    A little off topic but I do like the tie in with Dust 514 and EVE. I just wish it wasn't PS3 exclusive. If EVE had much more to do with a personal avatar rather than just a ship I'd be much more interested.

  4. #30464
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    One of my issues with rift/wow and the like is the combat, way too static for my tastes. I grew up on action games (such as mortal kombat) so that is probably why I feel that way about traditional mmo combat.
    Indeed. I am aware of your feeling on that style of combat & gameplay. But I guess I was using it to ask a deeper question of gameplay Kel framed much better in post #30467, paragraph two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    This is what I was touching on in a thread on the Rift forum as well. MMO gamers have just become accustomed to this idea that the game itself *is not fun*.

    They'll tell you that straight up too ("If you remove the gear grind, why would I even play?") even though I don't think they fully understand what they're saying sometimes.
    This is interesting and I was just having a provate conversation with Alyssa on the strutre of gameplay in gear/stat based MMOs. Specifically on the design used to incentivize content outside of enjoyment.

    The conversation was begun: here.

    Where my basic response was;

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa
    What meaningful content would you replace it with and how would it progress your character
    Why not just have progression through the content itself be meaningful? Such that being able to clear encounter 020 means one is far more skilled than those unable to master anything beyond encounter 018.

    Personally speaking, the only reason I progression raid is for the enjoyment and challenge of the content. The gear is more of a nuisance to me because the only function toughness serves is as entry key to more of content I enjoy.

    The "puzzle" of an encounter is the meaningful gameplay of an MMO. The genre is a poor medium for delivering most other types of gameplay.


    and

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa
    This was true 5-10 years ago, encounters these days are about as complex as they can be without alienating 95% of it's player base
    That's just poor handling of design by various MMOs.

    There can be a structure of meaningful, skill based progression without resorting the stat/gear checks. One wouldn't even need to resort to multi-mode instancing to accomplish this either [easy mode/hardmode/super duper hard mode]. As it can be done with existing game tropes of modern MMOs.

    Let us say for the sake of example we had a model like this:

    - Players are limited to access content only by their skill threshold.
    - There are differing levels of challenge provided in content let's call it; CR [challenge rating]

    We can apply CR to different types of content in both a macro view; e.x., mundane questing is generally CR1. Or a micro view; e.x., some quests are CR1 some are CR5. Others may be CR3, CR 10, etc.

    We already have this in MMOs now. You pick up a quest or walk in a dungeon and these are tuned for character level XX. In many cases the UI specifies the exact minimum character level needed.

    CR would function no differently. Rather than gating the ability to feasibly complete a CR50 encounter via character level [or gear / stat thresholds], the players themselves can choose the challenge level they are able to handle.

    The issue is one almost entirely of structure in EQ derived MMOs. Where it is not, familiarity to a vulgar audience is the issue; seen for example in Secret World, Fallen Earth or Guild Wars 2.


    I love most aspects of MMO's. I like the worlds, the stuff to do, the quasi-social aspects, and yes somewhat the character-advancement aspects. I especially like the feeling of permanence...not always an easy concept to go into detail on. What I don't like is the fact that it seems like developers - as much as the players - have come to accept that the gameplay of MMO's doesn't need to be fun.
    Yes, I would agree with this almost totally.

    In some regard the genre is shackled by what I can best describe as "comfort gaming".

    To reach back to my previous statement about Rift-- it's strength and flaw is that it is a standard MMO made in the well worn heritage of Everquest. And while Rift or World of Warcraft very well may be the most expertly created representations of that gameplay style; they are nonetheless very familiar games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    So... EVE?
    Another POV here is that I would say Eve is the quintessential stat driven MMO. Even more so than ye old M59/EQ and the descendant post-World of Warcraft MMOs. Even more so a stat driven MMO than sandbox. Where non-linearity and freedom of path are intrinsic to the sandbox model. Non-linearity and freedom of path are not necessity antithetical to stat driven MMOs.

  5. #30465
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    This is what I was touching on in a thread on the Rift forum as well. MMO gamers have just become accustomed to this idea that the game itself *is not fun*.

    They'll tell you that straight up too ("If you remove the gear grind, why would I even play?") even though I don't think they fully understand what they're saying sometimes.

    I love most aspects of MMO's. I like the worlds, the stuff to do, the quasi-social aspects, and yes somewhat the character-advancement aspects. I especially like the feeling of permanence...not always an easy concept to go into detail on. What I don't like is the fact that it seems like developers - as much as the players - have come to accept that the gameplay of MMO's doesn't need to be fun.
    Most MMO versions of end game are not fun to me. I've never understood the mentality of the player who must be max level ASAP to start on the "real content". WTF was the rest of the game? They've basically skipped 90% of it to get to the point where they can run the same half dozen dungeons repeatedly.

    Maybe it's because I come from playing a lot of console & PC single player RPG and adventure games. I enjoy the leveling process, the story progression, seeing/exploring each new area, doing all the side quests, trying to complete everything, etc. When a game boils down to extreme repetitiveness is when I start to rapidly lose interest. I really don't get the appeal of grinds in any capacity, but then again I don't get why people don't enjoy leveling so I guess it's just a different mindset. I usually end up doing the grind because MMOs especially make it mandatory for character progression, but I don't enjoy it. I'd sooner level a new alt from 1 to 80, that would actually be fun for me.

  6. #30466
    Maybe it's because I come from playing a lot of console & PC single player RPG and adventure games. I enjoy the leveling process, the story progression, seeing/exploring each new area, doing all the side quests, trying to complete everything, etc. When a game boils down to extreme repetitiveness is when I start to rapidly lose interest. I really don't get the appeal of grinds in any capacity, but then again I don't get why people don't enjoy leveling so I guess it's just a different mindset. I usually end up doing the grind because MMOs especially make it mandatory for character progression, but I don't enjoy it. I'd sooner level a new alt from 1 to 80, that would actually be fun for me.
    This is a conflict of niche gaming models gaining popularity.

    MMORPGs have historically been closer to Roll playing Games, not Role or Role playing games. The genre as it evolved from Everquest and earlier MUDs were not necessarily predicated on selling you an adventure by experience. But an adventure by dice rolls. For example, link.

    You expectations as a player of sRPGs and adventure games are perhaps directly in conflict with the gameplay of many MMOs.

    I have said this before, but the experience of playing World of Warcraft [example] is based on the player being super exciting/interested in manipulating the outcome of dice rolls in a rule set intended to work against them.

    There isn't a single way to express the gameplay in World of Warcraft [or Eq/TOR/Rift/TSW] that is not based around influencing under the hood dice rolls. This design conceit is so thorough and basic to the very reason one is playing the game that in the case of World of Warcraft [example redux], Blizzard expertly reveal almost the entirety of the game to players by level 2.

    That isn't to say all MMORPGs are following that model. Though many of have and that is the actual gameplay-- not the adventure or story. Those are incidental aspects of the game as a result of like, populating the world.


    In strictly gameplay terms, this is what you think you are doing:




    This is what the gameplay is actually expressing:




    It is natural that some players are keenly interested is what is essentially a self creating myth.

    It is also reasonable that some players are keenly interested in what is essentially a numbers puzzle.

  7. #30467
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Most MMO versions of end game are not fun to me. I've never understood the mentality of the player who must be max level ASAP to start on the "real content". WTF was the rest of the game? They've basically skipped 90% of it to get to the point where they can run the same half dozen dungeons repeatedly.

    Maybe it's because I come from playing a lot of console & PC single player RPG and adventure games. I enjoy the leveling process, the story progression, seeing/exploring each new area, doing all the side quests, trying to complete everything, etc. When a game boils down to extreme repetitiveness is when I start to rapidly lose interest. I really don't get the appeal of grinds in any capacity, but then again I don't get why people don't enjoy leveling so I guess it's just a different mindset. I usually end up doing the grind because MMOs especially make it mandatory for character progression, but I don't enjoy it. I'd sooner level a new alt from 1 to 80, that would actually be fun for me.
    I believe the problem starts in difficulty and required coordination.
    While leveling in MMOs is fun for the most time, it lacks any kind of difficulty in 90% of the time. Thus, i think people who want to get to endgame are mostly people looking for the greater challenges und coordinated groupplay.

  8. #30468
    Fluffy Kitten Azuri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,461
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    In strictly gameplay terms, this is what you think you are doing:




    This is what the gameplay is actually expressing:



    Interesting and a good visualization. Picture #1 is what we think we are doing in our MMORPG and in fact in the vertical scaling progression style of MMO's we are doing picture #2. Guess what's missing? Picture #3 which is GW2 I like the one with the numbers on it personally (#2) I'd like to see your representation in picture form of GW2 for a chuckle <3. Ironically it looks like Anet is going with picture #2 in the near future except some people are giving it pass since the numbers are smaller instead of the 57 and 34 it's 5 & 3 same thing in the end but when the masses scream for character progression and everyone want's to feel like a "hero" it will increase box sales which is exactly what Anet wants.


    I'd love to see if their cash shop has not been as popular as they would like since most things can be done in game removing the need to make cash shop purchases so in fact B2P backfires a bit as many people in these very forums chant "I haven't spent a cent in the store". It totally doesn't help the games bottom line when players just make the initial purchase and Anet has to then scramble to push an xpac up closer for more revenue or go the other route to attract more players by throwing in the gear progression model. Just my random tin foil hat ramblings but there's probably some truth to it.
    • PSN ID: Azuri118 •

  9. #30469
    Quote Originally Posted by Corros View Post
    I believe the problem starts in difficulty and required coordination.
    While leveling in MMOs is fun for the most time, it lacks any kind of difficulty in 90% of the time. Thus, i think people who want to get to endgame are mostly people looking for the greater challenges und coordinated groupplay.
    Bear in mind my only raiding experience was in WoW, but I really didn't get the appeal of that either. I mean, the "difficulty" was usually in terms of getting other people to not stand in fire, or gear checks either because it's a dps race/enrage timer or to lessen the odds of your main tank getting one-shotted, etc. Personally, I found trying to solo things that weren't supposed to be soloed much more of a challenge than anything I ever did in a group.

  10. #30470
    Guess what's missing? Picture #3 which is GW2 I like the one with the numbers on it personally (#2) I'd like to see your representation in picture form of GW2 for a chuckle <3. Ironically it looks like Anet is going with picture #2 in the near future except some people are giving it pass since the numbers are smaller instead of the 57 and 34 it's 5 & 3 same thing in the end but when the masses scream for character progression and everyone want's to feel like a "hero" it will increase box sales which is exactly what Anet wants.
    GW2 is still picture #2, really. All the numbers are still there under the hood.

  11. #30471
    Quote Originally Posted by Azuri View Post
    Interesting and a good visualization. Picture #1 is what we think we are doing in our MMORPG and in fact in the vertical scaling progression style of MMO's we are doing picture #2. Guess what's missing? Picture #3 which is GW2 I like the one with the numbers on it personally (#2) I'd like to see your representation in picture form of GW2 for a chuckle <3.
    Well, pic #3 would just be a #2 but like... the monster would have 56 tied to a stick.

    Ironically it looks like Anet is going with picture #2 in the near future except some people are giving it pass since the numbers are smaller instead of the 57 and 34 it's 5 & 3 same thing in the end but when the masses scream for character progression and everyone want's to feel like a "hero" it will increase box sales which is exactly what Anet wants.
    Ironic, indeed.

    There's been a lot of talk on this already. So not a lot left to say.

    Really come down to the the majority of people now playing Guild Wars 2 being mostly bandwagoners. There are more "WoW familiar" players playing the sequel than the original Guild Wars games.

    I don't begrudge companies for making a dollar. It is a business at the end of the day.

    I'd love to see if their cash shop has not been as popular as they would like since most things can be done in game removing the need to make cash shop purchases so in fact B2P backfires a bit as many people in these very forums chant "I haven't spent a cent in the store".
    The MMO publisher I worked for had the exact same IRL cash to virtual cash system for it's cash shop as Guild Wars 2.

    What Anet terms as "gems", we labeled "diamonds" for out virtual currency. The game had less than a 10th of audience and marketing of GW2. We made money hand over fist.

    Gems in GW2 have to come from someone buying them first. Just as our system. As I said before, we had some players that bought what amounted to the worth of a small car in the US annually. Those were far more valuable as customers than like the guy who paid 120$ for 12 months of server time.

    Hell, I spent maybe $10,000 US on cash shops myself. Maybe $300 or so on Rift, $130~ or so on SWTOR, $80 on Tera, etc.

    No comparison.

    Trust me or not on this one, but Arena.net are very likely rolling in cash shop money.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-11-22 at 09:30 PM.

  12. #30472
    Omg no offense but everyone needs to shut up and eat turkey.

    ....

    I'm so full gonna explode...

  13. #30473
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,393
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    On the contrary. I'm asking, do you enjoy playing a hotbar style RPG, and actually enjoy the mechanics and playstyle that accompany being a hotbar style RPG.

    Judging by your response, that answer's obviously a "no".

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 11:18 AM ----------

    So... EVE?
    But what I'm saying is that for a lot of people, the thing you say to remove is actually the thing they find fun about the MMO. What is wrong with that? Can't people play games for things they like even if it's not the thing you're trying to make them like instead?

    Guild war's 2 more active combat vs the stat list of something like WoW or even the nearly turn based FFXI might be an interesting distraction but it's really not what is going to keep people coming back and it's not why people play MMO games. If they wanted combat, they're playing Street Fighter online somewhere. The hotbar RPG is a convenient enough style but really what makes WoW successful isn't the type of combat, but the feeling of progress amongst a community. If you take that away, it's just not a MMO, so I have to ask again, why would you take away all the fun stuff THEN ask people if they like the game?

  14. #30474
    I finally remembered n00b question #3. :P If I want to respec, can I do it with the level 11 manual (the one that costs 10s)?

  15. #30475
    the npc selling the books has a respecc dialogue option (which costs less)

  16. #30476
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I finally remembered n00b question #3. :P If I want to respec, can I do it with the level 11 manual (the one that costs 10s)?
    Buying any manual will reset your trait points.

  17. #30477
    Fencer's guide for cheapskates in Guild Wars 2

    Protip #982879276287
    Place a buy order for training manuals in the AH. People sometimes buy double manuals or the wrong manual for their level. Provided you have patience to let the buy order ride-- you can often get manual [& respecs] for below vendor price.

    Simply check to see if your buy order is above minimum every 6 or so hours. If not, resend.

  18. #30478
    I learned to buy my manuals off the TP fairly early on, fortunately. Somehow, though, I completely missed the dialog option for respeccing. Does it continue to increase in price like it did in WoW? I checked on my level 73 and it was only 3.15s.

  19. #30479
    Stood in the Fire Cyphran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    SK
    Posts
    361
    Respeccing is so cheap the increase isn't really worth mention. One explorable will let you respec 20 times over.

  20. #30480
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I learned to buy my manuals off the TP fairly early on, fortunately. Somehow, though, I completely missed the dialog option for respeccing. Does it continue to increase in price like it did in WoW? I checked on my level 73 and it was only 3.15s.
    Respeccing is very cheap. It's only 3s50c at level 80 no matter how many times you respec.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •