A little off topic but I do like the tie in with Dust 514 and EVE. I just wish it wasn't PS3 exclusive. If EVE had much more to do with a personal avatar rather than just a ship I'd be much more interested.
#30467, paragraph two.
The conversation was begun: here.
Where my basic response was;
Why not just have progression through the content itself be meaningful? Such that being able to clear encounter 020 means one is far more skilled than those unable to master anything beyond encounter 018.Originally Posted by Alyssa
Personally speaking, the only reason I progression raid is for the enjoyment and challenge of the content. The gear is more of a nuisance to me because the only function toughness serves is as entry key to more of content I enjoy.
The "puzzle" of an encounter is the meaningful gameplay of an MMO. The genre is a poor medium for delivering most other types of gameplay.
That's just poor handling of design by various MMOs.Originally Posted by Alyssa
There can be a structure of meaningful, skill based progression without resorting the stat/gear checks. One wouldn't even need to resort to multi-mode instancing to accomplish this either [easy mode/hardmode/super duper hard mode]. As it can be done with existing game tropes of modern MMOs.
Let us say for the sake of example we had a model like this:
- Players are limited to access content only by their skill threshold.
- There are differing levels of challenge provided in content let's call it; CR [challenge rating]
We can apply CR to different types of content in both a macro view; e.x., mundane questing is generally CR1. Or a micro view; e.x., some quests are CR1 some are CR5. Others may be CR3, CR 10, etc.
We already have this in MMOs now. You pick up a quest or walk in a dungeon and these are tuned for character level XX. In many cases the UI specifies the exact minimum character level needed.
CR would function no differently. Rather than gating the ability to feasibly complete a CR50 encounter via character level [or gear / stat thresholds], the players themselves can choose the challenge level they are able to handle.
The issue is one almost entirely of structure in EQ derived MMOs. Where it is not, familiarity to a vulgar audience is the issue; seen for example in Secret World, Fallen Earth or Guild Wars 2.
Yes, I would agree with this almost totally.I love most aspects of MMO's. I like the worlds, the stuff to do, the quasi-social aspects, and yes somewhat the character-advancement aspects. I especially like the feeling of permanence...not always an easy concept to go into detail on. What I don't like is the fact that it seems like developers - as much as the players - have come to accept that the gameplay of MMO's doesn't need to be fun.
In some regard the genre is shackled by what I can best describe as "comfort gaming".
To reach back to my previous statement about Rift-- it's strength and flaw is that it is a standard MMO made in the well worn heritage of Everquest. And while Rift or World of Warcraft very well may be the most expertly created representations of that gameplay style; they are nonetheless very familiar games.
Maybe it's because I come from playing a lot of console & PC single player RPG and adventure games. I enjoy the leveling process, the story progression, seeing/exploring each new area, doing all the side quests, trying to complete everything, etc. When a game boils down to extreme repetitiveness is when I start to rapidly lose interest. I really don't get the appeal of grinds in any capacity, but then again I don't get why people don't enjoy leveling so I guess it's just a different mindset. I usually end up doing the grind because MMOs especially make it mandatory for character progression, but I don't enjoy it. I'd sooner level a new alt from 1 to 80, that would actually be fun for me.
This is a conflict of niche gaming models gaining popularity.Maybe it's because I come from playing a lot of console & PC single player RPG and adventure games. I enjoy the leveling process, the story progression, seeing/exploring each new area, doing all the side quests, trying to complete everything, etc. When a game boils down to extreme repetitiveness is when I start to rapidly lose interest. I really don't get the appeal of grinds in any capacity, but then again I don't get why people don't enjoy leveling so I guess it's just a different mindset. I usually end up doing the grind because MMOs especially make it mandatory for character progression, but I don't enjoy it. I'd sooner level a new alt from 1 to 80, that would actually be fun for me.
MMORPGs have historically been closer to Roll playing Games, not Role or Role playing games. The genre as it evolved from Everquest and earlier MUDs were not necessarily predicated on selling you an adventure by experience. But an adventure by dice rolls. For example, link.
You expectations as a player of sRPGs and adventure games are perhaps directly in conflict with the gameplay of many MMOs.
I have said this before, but the experience of playing World of Warcraft [example] is based on the player being super exciting/interested in manipulating the outcome of dice rolls in a rule set intended to work against them.
There isn't a single way to express the gameplay in World of Warcraft [or Eq/TOR/Rift/TSW] that is not based around influencing under the hood dice rolls. This design conceit is so thorough and basic to the very reason one is playing the game that in the case of World of Warcraft [example redux], Blizzard expertly reveal almost the entirety of the game to players by level 2.
That isn't to say all MMORPGs are following that model. Though many of have and that is the actual gameplay-- not the adventure or story. Those are incidental aspects of the game as a result of like, populating the world.
In strictly gameplay terms, this is what you think you are doing:
This is what the gameplay is actually expressing:
It is natural that some players are keenly interested is what is essentially a self creating myth.
It is also reasonable that some players are keenly interested in what is essentially a numbers puzzle.
While leveling in MMOs is fun for the most time, it lacks any kind of difficulty in 90% of the time. Thus, i think people who want to get to endgame are mostly people looking for the greater challenges und coordinated groupplay.
I'd love to see if their cash shop has not been as popular as they would like since most things can be done in game removing the need to make cash shop purchases so in fact B2P backfires a bit as many people in these very forums chant "I haven't spent a cent in the store". It totally doesn't help the games bottom line when players just make the initial purchase and Anet has to then scramble to push an xpac up closer for more revenue or go the other route to attract more players by throwing in the gear progression model. Just my random tin foil hat ramblings but there's probably some truth to it.
GW2 is still picture #2, really. All the numbers are still there under the hood.Guess what's missing? Picture #3 which is GW2 I like the one with the numbers on it personally (#2) I'd like to see your representation in picture form of GW2 for a chuckle <3. Ironically it looks like Anet is going with picture #2 in the near future except some people are giving it pass since the numbers are smaller instead of the 57 and 34 it's 5 & 3 same thing in the end but when the masses scream for character progression and everyone want's to feel like a "hero" it will increase box sales which is exactly what Anet wants.
Ironic, indeed.Ironically it looks like Anet is going with picture #2 in the near future except some people are giving it pass since the numbers are smaller instead of the 57 and 34 it's 5 & 3 same thing in the end but when the masses scream for character progression and everyone want's to feel like a "hero" it will increase box sales which is exactly what Anet wants.
There's been a lot of talk on this already. So not a lot left to say.
Really come down to the the majority of people now playing Guild Wars 2 being mostly bandwagoners. There are more "WoW familiar" players playing the sequel than the original Guild Wars games.
I don't begrudge companies for making a dollar. It is a business at the end of the day.
The MMO publisher I worked for had the exact same IRL cash to virtual cash system for it's cash shop as Guild Wars 2.I'd love to see if their cash shop has not been as popular as they would like since most things can be done in game removing the need to make cash shop purchases so in fact B2P backfires a bit as many people in these very forums chant "I haven't spent a cent in the store".
What Anet terms as "gems", we labeled "diamonds" for out virtual currency. The game had less than a 10th of audience and marketing of GW2. We made money hand over fist.
Gems in GW2 have to come from someone buying them first. Just as our system. As I said before, we had some players that bought what amounted to the worth of a small car in the US annually. Those were far more valuable as customers than like the guy who paid 120$ for 12 months of server time.
Hell, I spent maybe $10,000 US on cash shops myself. Maybe $300 or so on Rift, $130~ or so on SWTOR, $80 on Tera, etc.
Trust me or not on this one, but Arena.net are very likely rolling in cash shop money.
Last edited by Fencers; 2012-11-22 at 09:30 PM.
Omg no offense but everyone needs to shut up and eat turkey.
I'm so full gonna explode...
Guild war's 2 more active combat vs the stat list of something like WoW or even the nearly turn based FFXI might be an interesting distraction but it's really not what is going to keep people coming back and it's not why people play MMO games. If they wanted combat, they're playing Street Fighter online somewhere. The hotbar RPG is a convenient enough style but really what makes WoW successful isn't the type of combat, but the feeling of progress amongst a community. If you take that away, it's just not a MMO, so I have to ask again, why would you take away all the fun stuff THEN ask people if they like the game?
I finally remembered n00b question #3. :P If I want to respec, can I do it with the level 11 manual (the one that costs 10s)?
the npc selling the books has a respecc dialogue option (which costs less)
Fencer's guide for cheapskates in Guild Wars 2
Place a buy order for training manuals in the AH. People sometimes buy double manuals or the wrong manual for their level. Provided you have patience to let the buy order ride-- you can often get manual [& respecs] for below vendor price.
Simply check to see if your buy order is above minimum every 6 or so hours. If not, resend.
I learned to buy my manuals off the TP fairly early on, fortunately. Somehow, though, I completely missed the dialog option for respeccing. Does it continue to increase in price like it did in WoW? I checked on my level 73 and it was only 3.15s.
Respeccing is so cheap the increase isn't really worth mention. One explorable will let you respec 20 times over.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Cyphren/simple - Cyphren - Dr00dtank / Treeheals
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Cyphrin/simple - Cyphren - Bear Druid / Cat Druid