1. #32381
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    It's not always about pushing to be 2% better. Part of my frustration was due to reading people post questions like, "What's the best class to play for X?" and then people reply saying "it doesn't matter" and "play what you want". Oh, okay. So, if I'm looking to do long range, AoE damage I'll be just as effective with a D/D thief as a staff elementalist? Good to know!
    Isn't that taking it a little too literal though?

    I mean, if you want to play at range logically you choose a long range skill set. Filling the traits with whatever skills that have synergy with your goals.

    For example, I want to play a rifle Warrior. Well, I am not going to equip a greatsword & 2x axes. Naturally. I am going to get a rifle, pick rifle traits and so on. There might be this or that trait a tiny bit better than say, extra crits on full rage. But "it doesn't matter/play what you want" applies still- it doesn't matter too much. I can play what I want as a rifle Warrior provided I am logically pursing my goal: using a rifle at range.

    If I want to make a defensive build, I am not going to select 8 offensive skills and 9 offensive traits. Though it's highly doubtful I am going to fail or be seriously effected by choosing a stability defensive skill over a stun break defensive skill.

    I can't think of a single thing in GW2 PVE that isn't easily understood or practically workable.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-08-05 at 05:01 PM.

  2. #32382
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Isn't that taking it a little too literal though?

    I mean, if you want to play at range logically you choose a long range skill set. Filling the traits with whatever skills that have synergy with your goals.

    For example, I want to play a rifle Warrior.
    His question was "who is best range attack", would the answer be "warrior with rifle"? Even to use your example though, if someone says "how do I get best dps with warrior with rifle", the answer isn't "just pick stuff that looks good, it'll be okay". He's not asking "can I play the game as a warrior with a rifle?" He's asking how to optimize things.

    If someone would like resources to tell them stuff, saying "you can play the game without" doesn't really help them.

  3. #32383
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    voting ends in an hour
    Does that mean support tokens will stop dropping? Oh please, oh please, oh please?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Isn't that taking it a little too literal though?
    It was more to point out how thoroughly unhelpful that response is.

    As I said in an earlier post, even when I have tried to map out my own builds when I post them for critique I'm frequently told many of the traits or utilities I've chosen are terrible because they're either bugged or greatly under perform their tooltip. Conversely, someone might point out a trait/utility I thought looked underwhelming, but turns out synergizes amazingly with a particular weapon or other attack, which is something else I would not have known. That's the stuff I want to know.

    Hell, I saw one elementalist guide that said that 30 points into Power actually doesn't net you that much additional damage and suggested not going into that trait line at all. So picking what you think is the best/most obvious choice isn't sometimes. This is why I love my theorycrafters and number crunchers. :P
    Last edited by Lane; 2013-08-05 at 05:34 PM.

  4. #32384
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    His question was "who is best range attack", would the answer be "warrior with rifle"? Even to use your example though, if someone says "how do I get best dps with warrior with rifle", the answer isn't "just pick stuff that looks good, it'll be okay". He's not asking "can I play the game as a warrior with a rifle?" He's asking how to optimize things.

    If someone would like resources to tell them stuff, saying "you can play the game without" doesn't really help them.
    Sure, but even if they ask a more specific question- like long range aoe damage rather than my rifle example; you could still look at that stuff in a logical and clearly understood way.

    Okay, this weapon offers mostly single target attacks that are shorter range than this other weapon offering more aoe attacks.

    That's pretty simple to understand. And that sort of logic is consistent throughout all of GW2. It's a game of great simplicity.

    From a practical POV, it doesn't matter how one chooses traits and skills overmuch. Once again, as long as you are not doing something clearly against your stated goal; want to do damage -> choose damage skills/traits /= defensive skills/traits.

    I understand the user is looking to simply be told an answer definitively. That's fine. I am saying one likely won't ever find one due to the nature of the game design.

    Maybe even asking the question is somewhat faulty. Like asking, "So where are the raids?"- it speaks to a game that is simply not designed as GW2.

  5. #32385
    Another big reminder. Hand in your Black Lion Claim tickets for an Aetherized weapon today because tomorrow the price rises to 5 Claim tickets per weapon tomorrow. Also there will be server maintenance tonight at midnight for 6 hours.

  6. #32386
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Sure, but even if they ask a more specific question- like long range aoe damage rather than my rifle example; you could still look at that stuff in a logical and clearly understood way.

    Okay, this weapon offers mostly single target attacks that are shorter range than this other weapon offering more aoe attacks.

    That's pretty simple to understand. And that sort of logic is consistent throughout all of GW2. It's a game of great simplicity.
    Again, that doesn't address the actual questions, if someone wants to find out what's the best setup without having to look through gear sets, utilities and traits, doesn't mean they should just be told "do it yourself". That sort of answer, may as well be kept to yourself since it's utterly unhelpful to the questioner.

    There are optimum spec's, there is an efficiency difference between them, the way to get to those answers may not be as obvious as you believe it. While any spec may be effective, that does not mean it is the most efficient for the task at hand.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by carnifex2005 View Post
    Another big reminder. Hand in your Black Lion Claim tickets for an Aetherized weapon today because tomorrow the price rises to 5 Claim tickets per weapon tomorrow. Also there will be server maintenance tonight at midnight for 6 hours.
    Is this officially posted somewhere? I looked on the launcher and facebook, didn't see it.

    I assume midnight pacific?

  7. #32387
    Quote Originally Posted by carnifex2005 View Post
    Another big reminder. Hand in your Black Lion Claim tickets for an Aetherized weapon today because tomorrow the price rises to 5 Claim tickets per weapon tomorrow. Also there will be server maintenance tonight at midnight for 6 hours.
    Well since I don't even have one ticket that's sort of a moot point for me. A shame since I liked some of the models, especially the pistol.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Is this officially posted somewhere? I looked on the launcher and facebook, didn't see it.

    I assume midnight pacific?
    The maintenance? It's on the forums. There is an announcement on it as soon as you log in to the forums.

  8. #32388
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Well since I don't even have one ticket that's sort of a moot point for me. A shame since I liked some of the models, especially the pistol.
    I really wanted the sword, but not enough to grind for it, so oh well.
    I did get one ticket scrap today!


    The maintenance? It's on the forums. There is an announcement on it as soon as you log in to the forums.
    Thanks, I never really look at the forums.

  9. #32389
    Damn you ellen

  10. #32390
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    A shame since I liked some of the models, especially the pistol.
    I wanted the pistol too, but after opening 12 chests (2 more than I should have) I only got 4 ticket scraps (you need 10 for a full ticket >_>) and said screw it. I only ever open ~10 chests per special, that's my limit.

  11. #32391
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Again, that doesn't address the actual questions, if someone wants to find out what's the best setup without having to look through gear sets, utilities and traits, doesn't mean they should just be told "do it yourself". That sort of answer, may as well be kept to yourself since it's utterly unhelpful to the questioner.
    I don't think asking the question in the first place is totally respectable. I don't even think one should be helped in that regard either actually. That is sort of the point as stated up above; link & link.

  12. #32392
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I don't think asking the question in the first place is totally respectable. I don't even think one should be helped in that regard either actually. That is sort of the point as stated up above; link & link.
    That demonstrates why YOU would not ask such a question, you don't think it's needed. That doesn't mean other folks wouldn't ask and like an answer by those that have done more legwork in the matter. It's one of the things discussion forums like this one DO, really. It's even a bit perplexing that you think someone that didn't want to run the numbers themselves, should specifically NOT be helped.

  13. #32393
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    That demonstrates why YOU would not ask such a question, you don't think it's needed. That doesn't mean other folks wouldn't ask and like an answer by those that have done more legwork in the matter. It's one of the things discussion forums like this one DO, really. It's even a bit perplexing that you think someone that didn't want to run the numbers themselves, should specifically NOT be helped.
    She was addressing the lack of theory crafting sites such as EJ or a Mr. Robot. To which I replied and addressed from a design and practical POV.

    The post was not seeking help of this discussion board. Nor was I offering an solution to one's dilemma. Or would offer a solution, naturally.

  14. #32394
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    She was addressing the lack of theory crafting sites such as EJ or a Mr. Robot. To which I replied and addressed from a design and practical POV.
    She gave her purpose, wanting a site with folks that had done the work to find the most efficient build, so she didn't have to.

    You contributions include:
    "I can't imagine being so flummoxed by the simplistic play systems in GW2 that I would long for a pre-built spec/build/comp. "
    "There isn't much in PVE that requires that level of intellectual investigation. So you are likely to be eternally frustrated as there are no effective measures or requirements of such rigor in PVE. "

    Completly ignoring and dismissing that there IS a place for the most efficient damage build and such, that there are weapons that do more, that there is a step above "completing" something that folks may aim for. You even replied with what Lane originally complained about, basically: " Every time, for every class. It's either that or the aforementioned "play whatever" even when it's very clear that some classes significantly outperform others depending on the situation."

    In short, you out and out dismissed the idea, even implying someone was stupid for needing it. Because if someone wants to know how different combinations work, rather than consulting folks that have already done it, your answer is "I don't think asking the question in the first place is totally respectable. I don't even think one should be helped in that regard either actually. "

    The post was not seeking help of this discussion board. Nor was I offering an solution to one's dilemma. Or would offer a solution, naturally.
    The post was discussing the absence of such information, and it's not so much that you offered a solution, so much as dismissed the need for a solution and implied anyone looking for a solution was wrong or "flummoxed" by "simplistic play systems". Now you're debating the merits of your dismissal as if your way is the only way, completely ignoring the tone you present and how it comes across to others that read your posts, at best.

  15. #32395
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    In short, you out and out dismissed the idea, even implying someone was stupid for needing it. Because if someone wants to know how different combinations work, rather than consulting folks that have already done it, your answer is "I don't think asking the question in the first place is totally respectable. I don't even think one should be helped in that regard either actually. "
    Correct. Barring game bugs, the game design supports the accuracy of what I said as well.

    Now you're debating the merits of your dismissal as if your way is the only way, completely ignoring the tone you present and how it comes across to others that read your posts, at best.
    Well it is the only way. Design & gameplay as presented are not subjective. How one feels about them may be, but none should have any concern to that other than the marketer of the product.

  16. #32396
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Ciderland, arrgh.
    Posts
    6,592
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Now you're debating the merits of your dismissal as if your way is the only way, completely ignoring the tone you present and how it comes across to others that read your posts, at best.
    If you know fencers you know she doesnt give a monkies that everyone thinks shes a know it all robot, thats just how she rolls, lover her or hater her she isn't going to show a shred of emotion, nor will the thought she might be wrong cross her mind.

    In this instance, she is right, for a change. GW2 really doesn't need an EJ, it's good to have build guides etc, but every build guides Ive seen (and used) has been based on far qualitative information.

  17. #32397
    In this instance, she is right, for a change. GW2 really doesn't need an EJ, it's good to have build guides etc, but every build guides Ive seen (and used) has been based on far qualitative information.
    A misunderstanding here. It's not a matter of GW2 "needing" an EJ. It that the game doesn't support that kind of investigation by design. Nor does it require it.

    As someone else pointed out way earlier- yes, a more optimized build/comp could complete a PVE challenge in -1 min than an unoptimized build/comp. Objectively, that is a better build or composition. No argument.

    Though nothing in the game design of GW2 forces or impresses the need for a -1 min run or kill. The desire is one that out of game. And w/r/t GW2 specifically, is not in line with the gameplay in practice.

    To use the game which EJ originally reference, Warcraft, that is expressly not the case. Gameplay in WoW is designed to be completed just so. Meaning a comp or build are expected to meet a given threshold in exact terms or failure [of whatever the goal may be] is an absolute.

    GW2 has to account for any desperate combination of build/comp without firmness in either composition or build.

    One can say with accuracy that in GW2, "just play whatever you like" and still be correct within the game's logic and design of gameplay.

    [Rarely do I pass opinions on this or any forum, Draykorinee. And thus am rarely if ever wrong outside of blind speculation. Which I admittedly indulge in from time to time on film, television and video game subjects. But there is no opinion in the operation of video games. They are an exact medium in function.

    Now I understand many do view video games as a medium of strict entertainment. Fair enough. I do not and openly reject populist notions to such effect as ones of object falsehood.]
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-08-06 at 05:42 PM.

  18. #32398
    I think there might be a misunderstanding here, at least in terms of what I posted. Again, I'm not talking about being marginally better. I'm talking about things like people having done the testing to determine whether or not a trait or utility is worth it or not. In some cases the difference between using a 'bad' one over a 'good' one is a lot more significant than you might think and, in turn, could potentially mean the difference between failure or not especially if you engage in any sort of competitive gameplay. (I know there's some debate about such a thing even existing in GW2, but whatever, not the point. :P) I really think those are things you should know and, like I said, that kind of information has been really difficult for me to find because (as far as I know) there's no EJ equivalent for GW2.

    If you don't want it or feel like you or the game needs it, well, good for you. I would very much like such a thing. I like to be the most effective and as close to the "best" as I can be even if that means already faceroll content becomes facerollier. :P

  19. #32399
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    If you know fencers you know she doesnt give a monkies that everyone thinks shes a know it all robot, thats just how she rolls, lover her or hater her she isn't going to show a shred of emotion, nor will the thought she might be wrong cross her mind.

    In this instance, she is right, for a change. GW2 really doesn't need an EJ, it's good to have build guides etc, but every build guides Ive seen (and used) has been based on far qualitative information.
    I've read plenty of her stuff, I think she just fails to see what is an opinion and what is not. Same with what is "needed" as an argument when discussing a game.

    GW2 doesn't need an EJ. Does that mean it can't use one? Does that mean someone that wants one is wrong or stupid or something?

    For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    A misunderstanding here. It's not a matter of GW2 "needing" an EJ. It that the game doesn't support that kind of investigation by design. Nor does it require it.
    "require it" vs "need it" is semantics, neither matters in the question of "want it".

    As someone else pointed out way earlier- yes, a more optimized build/comp could complete a PVE challenge in -1 min than an unoptimized build/comp. Objectively, that is a better build or composition. No argument.
    Then EJ would be useful for someone looking to optimize in that way, and thus there is a use for it.


    To use the game which EJ originally reference, Warcraft, that is expressly not the case. Gameplay in WoW is designed to be completed just so. Meaning a comp or build are expected to meet a given threshold in exact terms or failure [of whatever the goal may be] is an absolute.
    Nope, even when they HAD talent trees, you could do it all wrong and still complete content. Current theorycrafting may lend itself to the best gear/ reforge setup, but even then it's not a barrier to completion. Where optimizing comes in, is completing the top tier content on a different difficulty.

    One can say with accuracy that in GW2, "just play whatever you like" and still be correct within the game's logic and design of gameplay.
    And still not be playing optimally to actually do stuff in a timely manner.

    [Rarely do I pass opinions on this or any forum, Draykorinee. And thus am rarely if ever wrong outside of blind speculation. Which I admittedly indulge in from time to time on film, television and video game subjects. But there is no opinion in the operation of video games. They are an exact medium in function.

    Now I understand many do view video games as a medium of strict entertainment. Fair enough. I do not and openly reject populist notions to such effect as ones of object falsehood.]
    Your error is that your entire viewpoint is an opinion. You want to see things through a certain window of "the game can be played, no matter how inefficiently" and reject other viewpoints as false...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    If you don't want it or feel like you or the game needs it, well, good for you. I would very much like such a thing. I like to be the most effective and as close to the "best" as I can be even if that means already faceroll content becomes facerollier. :P
    I doubt I would ever look at it seriously, given I'm not that hard core of a player and do what I like. My issue is with the over-arching assumption that someone that DOES play that way and want those resources is somehow wrong for being competitive. Especially when having that viewpoint is presented as somehow stupid to possess.

  20. #32400
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    GW2 doesn't need an EJ. Does that mean it can't use one? Does that mean someone that wants one is wrong or stupid or something?
    Wasn't even questioning the "need" for an EJ-like service. Though one is very likely to be forever frustrated if such a service is desired. As the design of GW2 is not such that services of that type will likely ever proliferate for PVE content.

    "require it" vs "need it" is semantics, neither matters in the question of "want it".
    Sure, one can want something that is unfeasible or impractical. Or even academic/useless.

    The validity of that desire in the context of the system presented is another matter. One that I am speaking on.

    Then EJ would be useful for someone looking to optimize in that way, and thus there is a use for it.
    I never said it was useless to have such a service. Only that one is not very likely in GW2 due to various factors of game design.

    Nope, even when they HAD talent trees, you could do it all wrong and still complete content.
    Mostly impossible and untrue in basic structure of the game. You actually couldn't even play World of Warcraft otherwise. Like the game wouldn't even function as it was created.

    Encounters in WoW are largely based on meeting given thresholds- damage or mitigation. There is no possible way to succeed otherwise barring game bugs/exploitation. It applies to kobold destruction in Elowyn Forest and to Molten Core. It is an absolute gameplay metric.

    And still not be playing optimally to actually do stuff in a timely manner.
    And it is a relative success. Just as above using WoW as an example- one could complete content in suboptimal compositions as you suggested. But no encounter can be completed without meeting X, Y &/or Z thresholds.

    For example, one might have a suboptimal group composition but still meet the DPS requirement [fail state] for an encounter of WoW. However, one can not have a group incapable of meeting the DPS requirement [fail state] and complete the encounter.

    In GW2, this expressly is not the case. As fail states are mostly independent on hardcoded thresholds to be met.

    One can play "whatever" spec/comp and "win" GW2. One can play "whatever" spec/comp in WOW as allows meeting a pre-set, absolute set of numbers.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •