1. #32601
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    stuff
    you debunked nothing man, quit acting like you are a dev and the fact that you are referring to grind as just a repeatable task is crazy yet in MMOs it specifically entails a repeatable task that is NOT enjoyable just to get something you want at the end.
    Last edited by Odeezee; 2013-09-02 at 02:57 PM.
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  2. #32602
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    1. you debunked nothing man, quit acting like you are a dev and
    2. the fact that you are referring to grind as just a repeatable task is crazy yet in MMOs it specifically entails a repeatable task that is NOT enjoyable just to get something you want at the end.
    1. Then reply to my points and explain how I didn't debunk anything. You're still just screaming "nononononononono" without backing anything up, atleast I backed my things up.
    2. Both wikipedia and urban dictionary contradict your claim. I haven't found anything supporting it yet and I find it hilarious that I'm required to debunk my own proof, that's your job since you disagree.

    Now you can do a couple of things.
    1. say "Yea my bad, I was wrong the entire time and didn't mean any disrespect"
    2. cower in fear and never reply again
    3. react to my post and lay out why I'm wrong
    4. keep repeating the same stuff that has been said already and write that off as new statements that clearly debunk what I said.

  3. #32603
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    I don't care about making friends, I care about getting (and providing) correct information.
    Your opinion is not always fact. you often blur the lines. Some people like what A/Net are doing with the ascended weapons. It's sort of a mini goal that people can work towards.

    Having slightly better gear in PVP can make a difference, so can a better internet connection or a different profession, etc. Obviously people will try to optimize their position as much as possible. The point people are trying to make here is that the difference is insignificant enough. People are screaming blue murder about it but I can guarantee that 95% of those who are complaining could do at least 5 things that would improve their performance before one even looks at ascended stuff.

    I will turn things around on you a bit. Its easy to complain when someone else does something that you don't like. A/Net have a number of issues that they are trying to fix in the game. People are complaining because there is no way to get gold, in the same breath, they complain when A/Net introduces stuff to change the economy. The same with goals, people complain that there is nothing to do and that the legendary takes too long. A/Net give a mini progression in the form of ascendence and people complain about that too. What would you have them do?

  4. #32604
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    How can you NOT get the daily automatically by plaing GW2 in any way? (except you define playing as standing around in town and chatting all the time).
    No offense, but I get tired of this argument. I honestly don't know in what way anyone plays to get the daily done automatically.

    1. Regional Event Completer / Killer / Veteran Killer: This requires me going out of my way almost every time because I'm not always currently playing in the designated region for that day or have any reason other than the daily to go there.
    2. Condition Remover / Skill Interrupter: Usually requires I play a particular class and/or in a certain area (to get enough conditions to remove) or I'll never get it.
    3. Crab Toss Champion / Keg Brawl: Do people really play these minigames daily?
    4. Daily Aquatic Slayer: How often are you in the water normally? While it can be argued it's a minor detour to hop in a lake and kill 25 things it's still not anything I would get during my normal gameplay.
    5. Daily Crafter: I have no reason to craft anything. All my disciplines are at 400. I refine 10 things for the achievement point, but again this is not something I'd get done automatically.
    6. Daily Feast: Who eats 25 food in one day?!
    7. Daily Fractal Runner / Dungeon Completer / Story Dungeon Completer: I don't do dungeons, so...
    8. Daily Reviver: Usually have to go out of my way for this one too. Either to find dead NPCs (that others haven't already resed) or some activity where players die a lot.
    9. Daily Mists Caravan Disruptor / Daily Mists Invasion Defender: If you don't PvP, well...
    10. Daily Puzzle Jumper / Daily Puzzle Discoverer: I don't do JPs every day. Yeah, it's easy enough to do the one in east LA, but again that's not something I would normally do without a daily directing me there.
    11. Karma Spender 0/750: What on earth would I spend 750 karma to buy?
    12. Mystic Forgesmith: I never use the forge.
    13. Personal Story Completer: I always have to make a new character to complete this.
    14. Skill Point Accumulator: Listing this one simply because prior to the skill point scrolls for champions this was a PITA to get done.

    So, that's literally half of the possible dailies.

    If your daily playstyle is that varied that you never have to go out of your way to get 5/5 then I find that amazing.

  5. #32605
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    you debunked nothing man, quit acting like you are a dev and the fact that you are referring to grind as just a repeatable task is crazy yet in MMOs it specifically entails a repeatable task that is NOT enjoyable just to get something you want at the end.
    Hm. I am pretty sure this is wrong or only true in bastardized definition such as on an Urban Dictionary page. Which is as likely to ill define Grind as "a drug dealer buying up drugs" as "Grind core music" and "Wigger freestyle rap". Like those are actual entries.

    And few of the vulgar and informal definitions contextualize the term in the negative expressly. I just went through 7 pages looking for a negative connotation. Nada that I could find.

    More classically, and appropriately a Grind is neither a positive or negative aspect of design. It can in fact be the BASIS of the gameplay and the source of enjoyment in a particular game.

    It is not accurate to define Grind within the MMO genre as an un-enjoyable set of tasks, expressly. And there doesn't seem to be much evidence in usage to support the claim in vulgar or academic connotation as an expressly negative state.

    I believe the bold-ed assertion is incorrect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    No offense, but I get tired of this argument. I honestly don't know in what way anyone plays to get the daily done automatically.[/URL].

    If your daily playstyle is that varied that you never have to go out of your way to get 5/5 then I find that amazing.
    Wowza. I had no idea the daily achievements were that arbitrary and grindy! No wonder why I never get any done.

    Spending karma, PVPing, Personal Story and throwing stuff in the Mystic Forge are not anywhere close to my daily playstyle. I just go around doing events and playing the fractals with my friends. I might have like 3 laurels total or something.

    Damn. That's an eye opener. Yet on the other hand, I feel safe ignoring these dailies as I do in GW2. They haven't roadblocked me from content yet so whatever.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-09-02 at 03:53 PM.

  6. #32606
    There are like 10 options to do 5 tasks for the daily.

    I really don't understand the complaint.

  7. #32607
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    There are like 10 options to do 5 tasks for the daily.

    I really don't understand the complaint.
    She is pointing out that half or so are not within the daily playstyle of individual players. Which is contra to the other fellow's assertion that the dailies are part of a normal/average play session across the board. Which it could not logically be if say crafting 10 things or purposefully using up 25 foods are daily tasks. One would have to make an definite effort to complete some of those as they are rather specific, circumstantial tasks.

    For example, I am a 400 crafter. I need no crafting gear or materials. The only reasons I would have to complete the crafting daily would be to grind the points/laurels. That is a formal and informal parameter of a Grind. One outside of the "how can you NOT get the daily automatically by just playing GW2" assumption.

    A crafter such as I would have to specifically Grind that process for an end/goal.


    [I don't care about laurels personally. Just saying Lane is correct and quite valid as contra to the other fellow. Who is saying something that can not logically be true as an "automatic" process of play. I do no dailies. Fuck 'em.]

  8. #32608
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    1. All games will have grind. It's not physically possible to create unlimited content and the moment content is repeated it becomes grind. One can exclude PVP to a certain extent but even there there is an element of grind.

    2. I have no problems with the new ascended weapons with one exception, I believe they should be tradable. I agree with the time gating. I think it could be done in a much better way like 7 per week instead of 1 per day but I still agree that it's necessary.

    3. There is a big flaw with the gold economy at the moment and that is because nothing has any value. People just grind the game into oblivion and because of the single trading post, everything ends up being worthless. Time gating things has an effect of increasing their value. Only x can be created every week. That's a good thing. It makes things valuable, provided you can trade them and that's my problem.
    1. I know, I don't think there's anything bad with there being a grind at all. The problem is that saying you do something to remove the grind while instead just creating another grind isn't all that great.

    2. That's exactly what I don't get, imo the monthly achievements are great (and they should remove dailies but that's a whole other mess I don't feel like getting into) and are a solution to the same problem.

    3. I again agree completely, sadly this wasn't one of the points being made by maarius/odeezee, and you yourself unravel the issue with the implementation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    1. Your opinion is not always fact. you often blur the lines.

    2. Some people like what A/Net are doing with the ascended weapons. It's sort of a mini goal that people can work towards.

    3. Having slightly better gear in PVP can make a difference, so can a better internet connection or a different profession, etc. Obviously people will try to optimize their position as much as possible. The point people are trying to make here is that the difference is insignificant enough. People are screaming blue murder about it but I can guarantee that 95% of those who are complaining could do at least 5 things that would improve their performance before one even looks at ascended stuff.

    4 I will turn things around on you a bit. Its easy to complain when someone else does something that you don't like. A/Net have a number of issues that they are trying to fix in the game. People are complaining because there is no way to get gold, in the same breath, they complain when A/Net introduces stuff to change the economy. The same with goals, people complain that there is nothing to do and that the legendary takes too long. A/Net give a mini progression in the form of ascendence and people complain about that too. What would you have them do?
    1. I know my opinion isn't fact, it's an opinion after all and so it shall be blurred by my past experiences. The thing is through my opinion I try to discover the truth so when I see bold claims which I disagree with I'll say why I disagree with them. If my reasoning is bad and you can poke holes in my reasoning I'll step aside and confirm that what was said at first is correct. Sadly that process or attitude isn't being taken by others and that's what I have a problem with.

    2. Being in BIS gear is one of my goals, getting ascended gear is part of that. I don't see how artificially lengthening this process makes the goal any more rewarding and that's why I have an issue with it. The other issue is that it creates a gap between equally dedicated players solely on when they play, but we've been over that .

    3. We seem to be quite like-minded, do note that I didn't bring up the point of "ascended to win" though.

    4. There's two things that would (easily) fix the biggest problems in my eyes without harming others, the funny thing is that you provided them in the first post. I know not everyone can be pleased so I won't try to solve that problem, I think the goal is to hurt as many people as little as possible.

    a) Instead of 1/1 implement a 7/week system
    b) Make the gear sellable

    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    No offense, but I get tired of this argument. I honestly don't know in what way anyone plays to get the daily done automatically.
    People forget that they actively make a decision to complete the daily and don't consider it bothersome.

    For instance I never gather once I completed my daily since 1. I don't need XP 2. I don't need money 3. I don't consider it fun. Yet I always complete my gathering daily since I can run between champ farms and gather without being penalized that much.

    As you said yourself, you decide to go to a certain zone to get the regional stuff done, again altering your playstyle.

    It's gonna be hard for a CS event farmer to do the daily auto, same for dungeon runners and wvw'ers. The only group of people who get 5/5 without altering their playstyle would be levelers which is a rather small part of the GW2 players.
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-09-02 at 04:15 PM.

  9. #32609
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Did I misunderstand or is not the time gating tied to a daily achievement of some kind?
    You have two materials that can be produced once per day each. The time that this "day" resets is the same as the current Daily. They are not tied to a daily achievement in any way other than the timer being the same.

    I am not sure, but I assume it is per account rather than per character.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    No offense, but I get tired of this argument. I honestly don't know in what way anyone plays to get the daily done automatically.
    If your daily playstyle is that varied that you never have to go out of your way to get 5/5 then I find that amazing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Wowza. I had no idea the daily achievements were that arbitrary and grindy! No wonder why I never get any done.
    You're both correct, of course, but generally it is easy to get 3-4 of the 5 you need out of the 14 possibles through normal play, and then tag the last 1 or 2 on purpose. (Like mystic forge, crafting or spend karma, if you're not doing them anyway, it's easy enough to pop them out in order to complete things.)

    As opposed to only having 5 specific things that are widely divergent. It's a decent compromise, IMO, for the rewards.



    Damn. That's an eye opener. Yet on the other hand, I feel safe ignoring these dailies as I do in GW2. They haven't roadblocked me from content yet so whatever.
    Rewards which, as you say, are just not really that important. I'm more likely to complete the dailies on a leveling alt for the bonus xp just for that xp, rather than because I need laurels or yet more karma. It is a "Bonus" for doing tasks each day rather than "mandatory".

    Even the ascended stuff you are time gated on, I think we can agree is not mandatory, except in a ... whatever we would call it, peer pressure? sense. It's a competitive thing, not a "you can't play correctly without this" thing.

  10. #32610
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    2. Being in BIS gear is one of my goals, getting ascended gear is part of that. I don't see how artificially lengthening this process makes the goal any more rewarding and that's why I have an issue with it. The other issue is that it creates a gap between equally dedicated players solely on when they play, but we've been over that .
    Me, I enjoy theory crafting and like to have BIS, it's just my skill cap (along with latency to a lesser extent) that lets me down

    I still for the life of me can't understand why crafted ascended items aren't sellable. It would do wonders for the economy. Initially, the rich buggers would pour money into the game to get the items. Over time it would drop a bit but would be a nice way for people to make a bit of gold.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    For example, I am a 400 crafter. I need no crafting gear or materials. The only reasons I would have to complete the crafting daily would be to grind the points/laurels. That is a formal and informal parameter of a Grind. One outside of the "how can you NOT get the daily automatically by just playing GW2" assumption.

    A crafter such as I would have to specifically Grind that process for an end/goal.
    I see the craft daily as an easy win. I always have ore to refine and the crafting daily just reminds me to do. Visiting a Laurel vendor is another. Visit the vendor to see if there is anything new and get a chunk of XP. The dailies on GW2 are very player friendly. I normally get 3 or 4 from just playing. Before I log off I look at what is missing and top up. Sometimes I even get the daily without looking at it.

  11. #32611
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    There are like 10 options to do 5 tasks for the daily.

    I really don't understand the complaint.
    Then read it properly before commenting. I rarely meet my daily requirement without having to focus on grinding something, where as most people say it like it falls in your lap. It just doesn't, thats the complaint, not that dailies are uber difficult but that the argument that you can run around in GW2 and automatically get the daily is a fallacy. (Why you would particularly want to is another matter, achievments should be earned)

    How can you NOT get the daily automatically by plaing GW2 in any way?

  12. #32612
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Then read it properly before commenting. I rarely meet my daily requirement without having to focus on grinding something, where as most people say it like it falls in your lap. It just doesn't, thats the complaint, not that dailies are uber difficult but that the argument that you can run around in GW2 and automatically get the daily is a fallacy.
    yeah, whiners really, and I can read it just fine, don't like it then kindly fuck off

  13. #32613
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    yeah, whiners really, and I can read it just fine, don't like it then kindly fuck off
    That again misses the point, no one is whining about doing the dailies, just debunking the myth that daileis fall in your lap. Im not sure who in this conversation you're telling to fuck off, it makes no sense.

  14. #32614
    Warchief Maarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    No offense, but I get tired of this argument. I honestly don't know in what way anyone plays to get the daily done automatically.
    snip - some of the daylies
    you notice that you took a random accumulation of daylies, one which probably will never exist? You noticed, that we (in the game) never get random daylies? We get a specific combination of daylies.

    I can only list todays daylie for reference, because I don't know which ones we get on a specific day in the week by heart.

    today:

    * daily kills: kill 50 enemies *done* easily without trying
    * daily gatherer *done* while running between invasion events
    * leveler *done* easily for the masses of xp one gets by doing the events
    * krytan event completer *done* easily, invasion happened in Kessex Hills
    * costume brawl champion
    * daily activity (mini game)
    * daily crafter *done* easily, just for a bit of magicfind food crafting (alternative: sharpening stones) why should I buy these when I have all the mats by playing the way I want?
    * daily mists defense restorer
    * daily mists invasion
    * daily mists land claimer
    * scarlet scrambler *done* luckily by finishing the event
    * dungeon defeater
    * grove diplomat
    * maguuma veteran killer

    after I got these 6/10 (you need only 5) easily after the invasion event (about 45-50min) I really wanted to do an activity, because I enjoy the minigames. 7/10. Normally I play a round WvW after a short PvE session... so I don't need to go on with my explanation, do I? 8/10, 9/10...

    And most of my days playing GW2 look very similar to this. I LOVE jumping puzzles, so that achievement doesn't bother me either. Daily reviver... come on... everytime I run around with a zerg people die. Don't know on which hardcore server you're playing. I revive those without ever thinking of my daylies. Which profession can not remove conditions? Seriously? O_o Condi-removal should be in any healthy build. At least all of my professions have a way to cleanse themselves easily. (Mesmer, Ranger, Guardian, Thief). Mystic Forgesmith. I get tons of greens in a normal session, turn 4 greens into a potential yellow - that's how I get my ectos. You should try. Skill point accumulator happens easily by level ups too.

    I don't know how you play,... seriously what are you doing for not getting these automatically?
    Last edited by Maarius; 2013-09-02 at 07:53 PM.

  15. #32615
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    I played for 40 minutes this morning and got 3 of them done, chasing events around.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Tommorows ones are (according to gwwiki)

    Daily aquatic - no, never
    Krytan Killer - Easily
    Daily Gatherer - Probably
    Daily Events - Easy
    Condition Applier - Probably
    Mystic forge - No, never
    Personal stroy - No, never
    Daily group event - Easily
    3 x pvp ones - no, never
    Queens Gauntlet challenger - Probably

    I reckon I would not complete my daily without going out of my way to do it, its ridonculous to say its as easy as you make it out to do it, and I would definitely have to spend upwards of 40 minutes to do it.

    Dailies are okay, still a boring grindfest like wow, lets just not tell porkies and say you get it just by playing.

  16. #32616
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    today:

    * daily kills: kill 50 enemies *done* easily without trying
    * daily gatherer *done* while running between invasion events
    * leveler *done* easily for the masses of xp one gets by doing the events
    * krytan event completer *done* easily, invasion happened in Kessex Hills
    * daily crafter *done* easily, just for a bit of magicfind food crafting (alternative: sharpening stones) why should I buy these when I have all the mats by playing the way I want?
    * scarlet scrambler *done* luckily by finishing the event

    And most of my days playing GW2 look very similar to this. I LOVE jumping puzzles, so that achievement doesn't bother me either. Daily reviver... come on... everytime I run around with a zerg people die. Don't know on which hardcore server you're playing. I revive those without ever thinking of my daylies. Mystic Forgesmith. I get tons of greens in a normal session, turn 4 greens into a potential yellow - that's how I get my ectos. You should try.

    I don't know how you play,... seriously what are you doing for not getting these automatically?
    You realise that your 6/10 "automatically" is actually 4/10 and then 2 that are easily completed right?

    The rest is similar, they're not a huge bother but they also aren't stuff you do daily anyway. This counts for crafter and MF.

    I've done WvW for hours without ever killing a single dolyak/sentry so even those aren't "auto-achieved" and that is if you actually do WvW.

    TLDR; you're still not getting your daily without changing your playstyle...

  17. #32617
    Am I the only one that wonders what the point of a daily is if it just falls into your lap anyway? That doesn't seem like a positive to me.

  18. #32618
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    TLDR; you're still not getting your daily without changing your playstyle...
    Which, I think, is actually part of the point. They want to make them easy enough to do, with a reward, but also broaden the activities you do.

    I mean, I've never tried Keg Brawl. I have no idea how it works or why I would want to. It's in the Daily list though!

    I think the developers see a lot of players that are focused on X, and they're trying to get them to see Y and Z are there also in case they like those other activities.

  19. #32619
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    Which, I think, is actually part of the point. They want to make them easy enough to do, with a reward, but also broaden the activities you do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Am I the only one that wonders what the point of a daily is if it just falls into your lap anyway? That doesn't seem like a positive to me.
    Ofcourse, I just think it's not helping at all to say "you get them automatically without changing your normal playstyle".

  20. #32620
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    you notice that you took a random accumulation of daylies, one which probably will never exist? You noticed, that we (in the game) never get random daylies? We get a specific combination of daylies.
    You are entirely misunderstanding her point. It's not about ease. It's that she can't get these "automatically by playing the game" in many cases. That the dailies are specific goals which are out of line from her play style.

    Some of are very unlikely to happen under normal play too. They are arbitrarily decided by the developers.

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