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  1. #21
    Yea... every point of haste you get decreases the amount of time between ticks. So even if you don't get another tick added your dots will do damage faster. Which matters since the goal is to never let your dots run out anyways.

  2. #22
    Only DP scales better with haste then an "ordinary" DoT.
    Due to the talent (improved DP) you get more initial damage with one/two/three additional ticks.

    Cogito ergo sum.

  3. #23
    The whole point of haste breakpoints/goals (also known as plateaus) are to increase the time between having to refresh your dot. The only haste values that affect the majority of geared players are 2140(?) and 2589 which are the values to achieve the 7th VT tick with and without DI.

    If you can reasonably reach one of these, then aim for them; if not, it's not that big of a deal. Fights where you are multi dotting benefit more from gaining the 7th tick.

    IMO, trying to reach 2736 haste for the extra DP tick is not worth it due to the long duration of the dot and the ease in which you are able to refresh it. The breakpoints for SW:P don't affect most players nor does it become an issue during gameplay unless you are trying to keep it refreshed on 3+ targets.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Solia View Post
    The whole point of haste breakpoints/goals (also known as plateaus) are to increase the time between having to refresh your dot.
    How so? Haste doesn't change the length of time the dot is on the target.

  5. #25
    I don't understand the extra ticks argument, they fixed dots so you don't wait for the final tick to refresh them, so what do these haste benchmarks do for you? you still refresh your dot before the last tick.. Int > Haste > Crit is really all there is to it, no benchmarks.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubzil View Post
    I don't understand the extra ticks argument, they fixed dots so you don't wait for the final tick to refresh them, so what do these haste benchmarks do for you? you still refresh your dot before the last tick.. Int > Haste > Crit is really all there is to it, no benchmarks.
    The benchmarks show up on a spreadsheet, nothing more nothing less.
    When you factor in movement, latency, etc, the "exact dps gain" you get by having potentially one less refresh over the course of a fight... is meaningless.

    For all intents and purposes, haste scales linearly.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  7. #27
    Kel did I get totally confused somewhere? I thought haste just meant that you would get more ticks that happen in the same duration. So basically your dots would do damage more frequently. How does that translate into having to refresh the dots less often?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    How so? Haste doesn't change the length of time the dot is on the target.
    It does, the dot duration varies +/-.5 GCD's of it's original duration.

    As an example: (numbers are off since I don't have my spreadsheet at work)
    at 2585 haste your VT lasts for 13.85s, at 2590 haste your Vt would last for 16.15s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    When you factor in movement, latency, etc, the "exact dps gain" you get by having potentially one less refresh over the course of a fight... is meaningless.
    How is it only one when you refresh it about every 15s. More when you factor in fights with multi dotting.

    I guess this is where all the hate on the idea of haste plateaus stem from, the misconception that dots last a set duration still.

  9. #29
    Question: During a "normal" fight, does anyone know what the estimate for the average number of DI stacks to have up at any one time is? Do you expect it to almost always be at 3? Just curious, as if the average was closer to, say, 2, then its even less of a DPS nerf. I think 3-4% is probably the right range, though.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Kel did I get totally confused somewhere? I thought haste just meant that you would get more ticks that happen in the same duration. So basically your dots would do damage more frequently. How does that translate into having to refresh the dots less often?
    It's my understanding that your dots tick faster meaning they also fall off faster. I haven't spriested in a while but I'm pretty sure last time I put up a VT with heroism up, it fell off a lot quicker than normal.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubzil View Post
    It's my understanding that your dots tick faster meaning they also fall off faster. I haven't spriested in a while but I'm pretty sure last time I put up a VT with heroism up, it fell off a lot quicker than normal.
    Nah that was the old way which made haste less important, because having to reapply dots more often is bad. They tick faster due to there being more ticks per cast.

    Solia, you don't have a link to something showing this? I am sadface I somehow missed it.

  12. #32

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Solia View Post
    How is it only one when you refresh it about every 15s. More when you factor in fights with multi dotting.

    I guess this is where all the hate on the idea of haste plateaus stem from, the misconception that dots last a set duration still.
    Either way, you're still either clipping fractions of a second early, thus mitigating the "haste plateau" because that extra tick is now delayed (and the total duration pushed off sync, the last tick no longer at the end of its duration) or you let it fall off early and thus don't maintain optimal DoT uptime.
    Haste plateaus are awesome... on a spreadsheet. But for the typical player, haste plateaus don't actually see a DPS increase, despite it being proclaimed that there is.

    The "hate" as you will, is coming to understand the valuing of stat weights, and that a large part of the theorycrafting community places too much emphasis on "goals" for stats. "Get X% <statA> then go onto <statB>" as if stat A suddenly loses value at that particular point, when in most cases it actually doesn't.

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-28 at 02:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Nah that was the old way which made haste less important, because having to reapply dots more often is bad. They tick faster due to there being more ticks per cast.

    Solia, you don't have a link to something showing this? I am sadface I somehow missed it.
    DoT duration still shrinks with haste, because your DoTs tick faster. But it doesn't get down to that 7 second Vampiric Touch we were seeing in Wrath. Instead, when the max duration lowers itself, it gets longer, adding that additional tick. It's just a dynamic duration, that's all.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  14. #34
    Fine, it's the difference between refreshing a 13.5s VT and a 16.5s VT (the 2 most extreme values.) So you are either refreshing every 13.2s or every 16.2s.

    Don't take my word for how dots work. Please just watch how a dot ticks on a target dummy and it's duration with various haste setups.

    I know haste is a great stat to stack, I'm never going to suggest you stop gearing for it after reaching one of these points. This does become a factor when you are 1550 haste and have a choice between gemming +40 Int, +20 Int/+20 Haste or +40 Haste in a socket (for argument sake the bonus is 10 mastery). All the guides will tell you that that +40 Int should be the obvious choice. I think even Simcraft will say the same since it takes values over a range of +/-100 for stat weights and the jump that occurs at 2589 gets flatten out over however it's distribution works.

    But hey, if you still want to believe that 10 haste here is worth exactly as much as 10 haste anywhere else, continue to do so. It's not worth my time trying to trying to change the minds of people who are set on their ways.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Either way, you're still either clipping fractions of a second early, thus mitigating the "haste plateau" because that extra tick is now delayed
    Wait, Isn't this what they fixed with the no more clipping dots, which is why you can refresh VT 2 seconds early and DP up to 8 seconds early ??? reapplying dots doesn't reset the timer for when they tick, it just keeps them ticking at the same rate, i.e.: Vamp Touch about to tick in .5 sec, and you reapply the dot, it still ticks in .5 sec then continues..

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubzil View Post
    Wait, Isn't this what they fixed with the no more clipping dots, which is why you can refresh VT 2 seconds early and DP up to 8 seconds early ??? reapplying dots doesn't reset the timer for when they tick, it just keeps them ticking at the same rate, i.e.: Vamp Touch about to tick in .5 sec, and you reapply the dot, it still ticks in .5 sec then continues..
    Reapplying them that early means not only did you lose ticks (lost ticks from such an application are gone), but you also spent time doing less damage than you could have.

    Them ticking at the same rate is basically the save that says "Hey, you don't have to wait for Vampiric Touch to completely fall off, trying to time it perfect to refresh". Because the old system had that .5 of a second basically making you wait another 2.4 seconds before you had your first tick again (lost DPS time).

    New system's an insane level of improvement, but you still shouldn't be refreshing more than you have to (i.e. DoT's about to fall off, or DP just because you're moving, and it's instant damage).
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    DoT duration still shrinks with haste, because your DoTs tick faster. But it doesn't get down to that 7 second Vampiric Touch we were seeing in Wrath. Instead, when the max duration lowers itself, it gets longer, adding that additional tick. It's just a dynamic duration, that's all.
    Ah that makes sense... I probably misunderstood the post they , made awhile back when they were talking about the changes they were planning to make to how haste affected dots/hots.

    Ah I found what I had missed:
    [Shadowform]: This talent also now causes [Devouring Plague] and [Vampiric Touch] to benefit from haste. Both the period length and the duration of these spells will be reduced by haste. In addition, the mana cost has been reduced from 32% to 13% of base mana.
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Patch_3.3.0

    I had thought they had further changed this later but I couldn't find anything else about it so I guess not. So cool

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Reapplying them that early means not only did you lose ticks (lost ticks from such an application are gone), but you also spent time doing less damage than you could have.
    I will have to look into this. I'm almost positive they changed it so you could reapply VT ~1-2 seconds early and your ticks don't change at all, they continue at the same pace as if you let it fall off and reapplied at the very second they fell off. At the end of a fight those extra 1-2 seconds early could add up to an extra mind blast going off, possibly, or an extra SW, but that's really all you will lose since you aren't infact losing 1-2 seconds, you are using the same GCD and cast time as if you waited, just not having to reapply that very last VT at the last 5% of a boss because the seconds added up, could net you an extra GCD to use on mind blast instead of VT.

    I realize this *CAN BE* a DPS loss compared to completing the cast right as the DoT falls off, but that completely depends on where your buffs/shadow orbs are in your rotation. Anyways, 1-2 sec early on VT is a very minor dps loss, and a decent DPS increase compared to letting it actually fall off. (thinking real world, not simcraft)

    I got the up to 8 seconds on DP from EJ, since the initial damage that DP does is good enough that it's an actual DPS increase to refresh this up to 8 seconds early for costing you 1gcd.
    Last edited by Dubzil; 2011-04-28 at 10:54 PM.

  19. #39
    (I'll use my own haste rating for this, cause I just did some quick in game tests to look into this myself) Which, with DI, I had 32.91% haste. I simply had a friend DI me before he went afk to test this.

    Basically, what VT does is it grabs a little formula for when you refresh it. It takes whatever time was left on the last tick the original duration would've had, adds it to a full duration VT, and that's what goes on the boss. Some numbers for example.

    VT has 1.7 seconds left until the next tick, and a full duration VT is 15.8 seconds. If VT is reapplied at 1.7 left until the next tick, the new VT will have a duration of 17.5 seconds, with its first tick going off in 1.7 seconds. (after sleepily rereading I found out this is what Kelesti actually said, but here's some math backing it up.)

    Also, where is this thing stating that refreshing DP at 8 seconds is good? I'd understand refreshing when you're moving, but how is refreshing it at 8 a DPS gain? That sounds like some silly wotlk thing.

  20. #40
    Ahh, that makes sense on the DP refresh being that early, kind of figured that was the reason. Ultimately, you can refresh DP with any temp buff that increases it's damage (trinket/weapon proc, BL, ect.) and see a gain in DPS.

    There are also times you'd want to refresh, even if it's really early, like the end of Magmaw's head phase, Right before Feud on Chim,

    ::got late didn't finish posting, lol::

    8s and less for DP means you are clipping 2 ticks at most on DP which is probably less than the damage IDP does.

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