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  1. #41
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Who the best tank is may be a tough question to answer and it's very biased on personal experience from a large pool of players. People who've played 1-2 tank characters will obviously choose those that they like best regardless of the other 2-3 classes and others that have played 3-4 will more likely opt for a tie between 2 of them.

    Personally I've played all 4 tanking classes and I can't say for sure which is superior but I can say one thing: It ain't druids! This expansion took away their high health and rendered them as a rag-doll inside a washing machine with the SD. While I don't doubt it's uses I feel that shields are more reliable.

    For the rest of the "group" paladins and warriors may feel similar but there are 2 major differences between them. The first one is mobility and the 2nd one is control. With warrior you can easily get around the terrain catching adds and positioning the boss well... "like a boss". However paladins have control over the battlefield, managing with a single click instant heals to others, BoPs, LoH and a multitude of savior-ish abilities designed to help the team through an encounter. While the warrior is more of a barbarian wreaking havoc and destruction the paladin controls the battlefield like a general.

    Last but not least we have DKs. They are a special breed of tanks which, under the right hands, can manage some incredible feats (check out that DK who soloed 2 HEROIC CATACLYSM BOSSES ). Not having a shield and being based on micro-managing cooldowns makes this tank as reliable as the player behind it. Things that most classes have "by default" this one takes a hands-on approach which can either make your healer run up the wall or have him re-specc into DPS. A DK in combat is like a templar that, guided by his faith and confidence, overcomes his foes.

    If I had to pick I'd go for DK because you can get better and better at it and accomplish seeming impossible things. But if you want to get a class that performs well from the get go and doesn't rely as much on the player I'd go for Paladin since they are easy to pick-up-and-play with a wide variety of tools both for himself and the raid.
    All those paladin control methods you talked about are basic paladin utility that would be better brought by holy paladins in almost all cases. Divine Guardian is good but warriors have Rallying Cry now which is a great raid cooldown. Warriors have more control, I would say, with abilities like Intervene, Safe Guard, infinite no cooldown taunt, snares, a better AOE stun (one that isn't based on the enemy's race), spell reflect, and so on.

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-28 at 01:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by xotrem View Post
    No, you never said that, but the topic is tanks and bears tank. To compare an action, the two things being compared have to be doing the same thing, in this case tanking. Otherwise it isn't a fair comparison.

    But his question is valid, how is druid brez superior? Coming back to life isn't the same if one class does it over another? I am a paladin yet I try to use shockers to rez people. Is that less a rez then when I cast the rez spell?
    I already said how it was superior. DK battle rez requires 50 runic power, something a DK will not usually have unless they plan for it or save it up over a few seconds, and it returns players to 20% health whereas a glyphed druid battle rez returns players to 100% health. Why didn't you pay attention to that? Why would you ask a question that was both already answered and patently obvious?

    And no, it is a very fair comparison. Even then, druid tanks can very easily battle rez while tanking.

  2. #42
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    HoW is provided by shamans and warriors in vastly superior forms.
    Debuffs? Same as prot warrior except, again, prot warrior debuffs are typically the superior versions and overwrite the DK versions.
    I'm not sure where you're getting this information...except perhaps from somewhere we won't name. The Death Knight Horn of Winter is IDENTICAL to the warrior buff, in every way except it lasts a mere 1 minute less (but any good tank is regularly refreshing it). They don't overwrite the DK version - both buffs overwrite each other. If a warrior battle shouts, and then I use Horn of Winter, I will override his. If I use HoR first, and he Battle Shouts, he'll overwrite my HoR.

    The warrior debuff to slow attack speed by 20% is again IDENTICAL to my frost fever - except mine does thousands of damage per 3 seconds for 33 seconds. My blood plague? No different than a warriors Rend.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    Wow. I have a prot paladin and I cannot stand to even touch him. Fun? There's nothing fun about the paladin class. When I retired my prot paladin as my main in WotLK and made warrior my main, my fun went up TREMENDOUSLY.
    "YOU THINK SOMETHING I DON'T ENJOY IS FUN? YOU'RE WRONG! I HAVEN'T PLAYED THEM SINCE WRATH - WHERE THE STYLE WAS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT - THUS MAKING MY POINT INVALID ANYWAY, BUT YOU'RE WRONG!"

    What the hell's wrong with you?

  4. #44
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vantheus View Post
    Spoken like someone who has absolutely zero idea what they're talking about, perhaps you just get confused by the game beyond heroics so we'll forgive this nonsense.
    Hmmm? Sounds to me like you are the one who has absolutely zero idea what they are talking about.

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-28 at 01:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    "YOU THINK SOMETHING I DON'T ENJOY IS FUN? YOU'RE WRONG! I HAVEN'T PLAYED THEM SINCE WRATH - WHERE THE STYLE WAS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT - THUS MAKING MY POINT INVALID ANYWAY, BUT YOU'RE WRONG!"

    What the hell's wrong with you?
    What's wrong with you? To blow up over such a statement implies a very fragile psyche. I'd seek psychiatric help, bro.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    No. Paladin tanks are like warrior tanks without the mobility. The mobility is very useful.
    Yeah because Warriors have blessings and hands and bubble, amirite?

  6. #46
    I take it you are just going to spam your opinion on how warrior tanks are gods gift every other post.

  7. #47
    I don't know what DK tanks you have faced, but I can survive cho'galls fire weapon with almost no damage while our warrior almost dies every time.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting this information...except perhaps from somewhere we won't name. The Death Knight Horn of Winter is IDENTICAL to the warrior buff, in every way except it lasts a mere 1 minute less (but any good tank is regularly refreshing it). They don't overwrite the DK version - both buffs overwrite each other. If a warrior battle shouts, and then I use Horn of Winter, I will override his. If I use HoR first, and he Battle Shouts, he'll overwrite my HoR.

    The warrior debuff to slow attack speed by 20% is again IDENTICAL to my frost fever - except mine does thousands of damage per 3 seconds for 33 seconds. My blood plague? No different than a warriors Rend.
    I'm not sure where you're getting your information. My battle shout is 4 minutes. Yours is 3. My cooldown is 1 minute and I use it every cooldown, for the most part. Ergo, mine will always replace yours because it lasts longer. Shaman lasts as long as the totem is on the ground. It will replace both.

    The warrior debuff to attack speed is an AOE ability. It effects every mob with one button press. You have to use pestilence to spread around yours.

    The warrior debuff to attack power is also AOE and lasts longer than scarlet fever. I'm not sure why you mentioned blood plague over scarlet fever?

  9. #49
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vadesh View Post
    I don't know what DK tanks you have faced, but I can survive cho'galls fire weapon with almost no damage while our warrior almost dies every time.
    Yes - and with my anti-magic shield, I can prevent his fury of cho'gall affecting my shadow damage taken. I take only HALF of his fury AND that means my blood shield negates the rest.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    All those paladin control methods you talked about are basic paladin utility that would be better brought by holy paladins in almost all cases. Divine Guardian is good but warriors have Rallying Cry now which is a great raid cooldown. Warriors have more control, I would say, with abilities like Intervene, Safe Guard, infinite no cooldown taunt, snares, a better AOE stun (one that isn't based on the enemy's race), spell reflect, and so on.[COLOR="red"]
    Pretty much as I've mentioned warriors run around the battlefield trying to protect the group while a paladin can use any of his heals(even considering the WoG CD) on any raid member that requires it, can taunt without running towards the mob without the "fuss", can reduce the damage of all those around him (30 yards) with Divine Guardian and can throw his shield like Captain America not to mention the BoPs. I think that he has, hands down, more control over the battlefield providing assistance when needed without having to actually rely on moving or positioning.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vadesh View Post
    I don't know what DK tanks you have faced, but I can survive cho'galls fire weapon with almost no damage while our warrior almost dies every time.
    Your warrior is extremely bad then. I can easily survive Cho'galls fire weapon and take almost no damage as well. In fact, I'll definitely take much less damage than a DK.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    Why would the druid be tanking? I never said that. Though we are talking about tanks... ehh duh?! the druid rez is infinitely superior because you don't have to wait to cast it and it brings the player back with full health assuming you are properly glyphed. Which is untrue cause I am an all-knowing monkey and it is most likely that you are resto druid if you are having the glyph for it plus you have to be resto to make it instant (with the use of CD)...

    And no, warriors are the best because they take the least damage and have the best utility and they can survive for the least amount of time if their healer/s die (which in a raid situation is 95% wipe but in a hc dungeon it can still be a total 100% kill.
    Now that's closer to truth.

    Also since I 've played paladin tank and warrior tank and half-ass druid tank (I just had the talents for tanking but tanked only when the MT died)
    I would say it goes something like this paladin > DK > druid = warrior
    Druid is better at aoe and warrior has more "I don't wanna die" cooldowns.
    Last edited by Mpif; 2011-04-28 at 01:35 AM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Pretty much as I've mentioned warriors run around the battlefield trying to protect the group while a paladin can use any of his heals(even considering the WoG CD) on any raid member that requires it, can taunt without running towards the mob without the "fuss", can reduce the damage of all those around him (30 yards) with Divine Guardian and can throw his shield like Captain America not to mention the BoPs. I think that he has, hands down, more control over the battlefield providing assistance when needed without having to actually rely on moving or positioning.
    You are obviously just babbling. Paladins can taunt with no fuss but warriors can't? You do realize that all taunts are 30 yard range, right? The difference is a warrior can put vigilance on the other tank and will then be able to taunt over and over with no cooldown forever.

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-28 at 01:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mpif View Post
    Now that's closer to truth.

    Also since I 've played paladin tank and warrior tank and half-ass druid tank (I just had the talents for tanking but tanked only when the MT died)
    I would say it goes something like this paladin > DK > druid = warrior
    Druid is better at aoe and warrior has more "I don't wanna die" cooldowns.
    Druid is much, much worse at AOE. You have no idea what you are talking about. Warriors have by far the best AOE threat in game right now.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    What's wrong with you? To blow up over such a statement implies a very fragile psyche. I'd seek psychiatric help, bro.
    "To blow up" implies some sort of exaggerated reaction. All I did was paraphrase you and put it in caps - you're the one who decided to tell someone that the class they enjoyed was definitively not fun, with your only explanation being that you didn't enjoy them a full expansion and entire redesign ago.

    You're not better than other people because you're a warrior, and you have no weight on what they think is fun. Have a nice night.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    You are obviously just babbling. Paladins can taunt with no fuss but warriors can't? You do realize that all taunts are 30 yard range, right? The difference is a warrior can put vigilance on the other tank and will then be able to taunt over and over with no cooldown forever.
    What are you reading??? I said can reduce the damage of all those around him (30 yards) with Divine Guardian!

    The taunt which I am refering to is
    Righteous Defense

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    "To blow up" implies some sort of exaggerated reaction. All I did was paraphrase you and put it in caps - you're the one who decided to tell someone that the class they enjoyed was definitively not fun, with your only explanation being that you didn't enjoy them a full expansion and entire redesign ago.

    You're not better than other people because you're a warrior, and you have no weight on what they think is fun. Have a nice night.
    Exaggerated reaction? Like your response? Typing in all caps is definitely an exaggerated reaction. What a laugh. Are you really that dense? And no, you didn't paraphrase, you fabricated.

    I have played my paladin in Cata. For about 30 minutes a time before groaning and asking myself why I bothered trying to play such a monumentally dull class again. Paladin has always been the automated, on-training-wheels tank for the lesser skilled. If you have the skill, there's nothing worth doing with that class because it was obviously developed with the lesser skilled in mind. If you have the skill, the class is exceedingly dull because it's far too easy and has no finesse.

    ---------- Post added 2011-04-28 at 01:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    What are you reading??? I said can reduce the damage of all those around him (30 yards) with Divine Guardian!

    The taunt which I am refering to is
    Righteous Defense
    You said this: "can taunt without running towards the mob without the "fuss","

    which is a laughable claim because all tanks can taunt without running towards the mob because all tanks have 30 yard taunts.

  17. #57
    The Patient Nasser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashareth View Post
    Dks are lagging far behing because of their pathetic mitigation, the fact that their "block like" ability needs to be timed (on top of being nerfed to hell before 4.06 even knowing it scales like shit and is worse and worse with time and tanks stacking up avoidance from gear :/) - for example, in the same level of gear (350), my pally and war (with block) sits at the same avoidance than my tank (with the block/critical block passive on top), while having 50% more armor (a little more actually).
    From memory my dk sits at 23k armor, my pally at nearly 35k armor, my war around that too (a little less, he lack the 2p t11 and epic shield compared to the pally).
    Are you sure you were using Blood presence when you checked your armor, or did you perhaps check it on the Armory/WoWhead profiler (which does not include Blood presence) or something? I have 29k armor and I'm barely at 343 ilvl. With my planned upgrades I'll be sitting at 30k armor, which is only like 4-5% less armor damage reduction compared to 35k (which is alot, but not as much as from 23k armor).
    Also, on a DK tank you also either stack mastery or avoidance, not both, which might explain the "bad scaling".

    Finally, you should not compare a warrior's block AND avoidance with only a DK's avoidance - you should include the effect of their mastery to get a fairer comparison.

    Edit: Also, I thought the blood shield stacks, no need to time Death Strikes anymore - they even provide the full shield if you overheal yourself. You should try to time them slightly when you are not at full hp, but it's not mandatory (and in raids chances are you're not at 100% hp all the bloody time).
    Last edited by Nasser; 2011-04-28 at 01:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascherzon
    He doesn't read topics before he posts - he just takes a dump, smears it all over his face, rolls his face across the keyboard and presses post.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    You said this: "can taunt without running towards the mob without the "fuss","

    which is a laughable claim because all tanks can taunt without running towards the mob because all tanks have 30 yard taunts.
    What I said is completely valid. A paladin does not run towards the mob say like a warrior would charge/intercept etc. a patch of adds he can simply click the raid member and have the adds(up to 3) come to him.

    The Warrior AoE taunt is Challenging Shout which has a small range(10 yards) and a 5minute cooldown compared to Righteous Defense which has a 8 seconds CD (not to mention you can mix it with Avenger's Shield which can attract further mobs to you).

    Edit: Also Righteous Defense has a 40 yards range

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    What I said is completely valid. A paladin does not run towards the mob say like a warrior would charge/intercept etc. a patch of adds he can simply click the raid member and have the adds(up to 3) come to him.

    The Warrior AoE taunt is Challenging Shout which has a small range(10 yards) and a 5minute cooldown compared to Righteous Defense which has a 8 seconds CD (not to mention you can mix it with Avenger's Shield which can attract further mobs to you).
    Wow. You don't even know the basics. Challenging Shout is not and has never been a taunt. It doesn't even remotely function like a taunt.

    Warriors don't need to charge mobs that they taunt. That's a laughable claim.

    Righteous Defense is not an AOE taunt. At all. It only affects 3 targets. It's also a horrible designed ability. It's led to many wipes over the years when the paladin taunted the boss instead of the adds he was trying to get.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    Exaggerated reaction? Like your response? Typing in all caps is definitely an exaggerated reaction. What a laugh. Are you really that dense? And no, you didn't paraphrase, you fabricated.

    I have played my paladin in Cata. For about 30 minutes a time before groaning and asking myself why I bothered trying to play such a monumentally dull class again. Paladin has always been the automated, on-training-wheels tank for the lesser skilled. If you have the skill, there's nothing worth doing with that class because it was obviously developed with the lesser skilled in mind. If you have the skill, the class is exceedingly dull because it's far too easy and has no finesse.
    Wow, you're a complete egomaniac, aren't you? Did I not sum up what you said in your quote, only in caps to give life to your unneeded rage?

    All tank classes are easy to play. If you think they're hard, it's because you're not very good at it. The difficulty comes entirely from what you do with it. I've saved my raid countless times with a well timed WoG or LOH to our other tank when the healers were having trouble, or a quick Hand of Salv/Sacri/Prot/Freedom to get someone out of a situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkforCalde View Post
    You said this: "can taunt without running towards the mob without the "fuss","

    which is a laughable claim because all tanks can taunt without running towards the mob because all tanks have 30 yard taunts.
    He's talking about it's ability to taunt 3 targets at once. I have no idea what kind of warrior you are - hopefully a good one from the way you boast constantly - but given your lack of knowledge on Paladins, I'd have to guess you were...lacking as one.

    Oh, and I'll have to ask you to refrain from insulting people that disagree with you. That's against the rules, don't you know =)

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