Are the Rumours True? 10man vs 25man Raiding

[ThrashMetalFtw]

If you have 25 good players, then 25man is easier than 10man, but finding 25 (actually like 30-33 GOOD players because of the possibilty of ppl signing off) is 1k9iiojfsajkfnsljknglsjnklgjn harder than finding a good 10man grp. I have been raiding hardcore and semi-hardcore in 5 different guilds since late TBC, and I've never been in a "perfect" raid, where nobody fails, always 1-2 or more dragging you down at different points. Guess that's a luxury that only the top top top guilds have...

[Deleted]

And there are also a lot more top 25man guilds out there compared to top 10man guilds, hence the reason why all of the encounters was beaten on 25man first.
man.

While this is true you also have to take into consideration that many fights were vastly overtuned, read broken, for 10man raiding in the beginning. Fights such as Valiona which was impossible pre-fix. Etc.
Sinestra, pre 4.1, also was extremely RNG in 10mans, although not impossible to beat if lady luck was on your side.

[Deleted]

Having more utility from a big variety of players in 25m is nice, but 10m is easier to keep track off.

Both are similar imo, if you know what your doing

[KaPe]

It only took Blizzard 5 months and one major patch to make them roughly equal. Interesting that they left Heroic Al'akir exactly the same - which still means 10 man version is much easier - yet the ones that were harder on 10 man, got nerfed. It's hard to draw conclussion from that - they do strive for 10/25 being balanced, yet ignore one of glaring examples, the one which is obvious even on normal mode.

[Irisel]

A rule of thumb I like to follow is that it's easier to herd 10 cats than 25 cats.

[Deleted]

A rule of thumb I like to follow is that it's easier to herd 10 cats than 25 cats.

this.
blame rng all you want but player errors are vastly more fatal in a lower population.

[Domiku]

here we go again.... 25 man more cooldowns - more interputs 10 man = less hence why blizzard keeps doing things like allowing interupts not to miss for tanks to help in 10mans. stil doesnt stop 25mans having like a million cooldowns compaired to 10 though. who does 25man now anyway wows so dead these days id be shocked if anyone still had a good number of GOOD players who could pull off a 25. i guess thats why its more simple.

[Arbaxas]

*Speaking about heroic modes* Everyone who is saying that 25 man is easier or even difficulty to 10 man obviously haven't done 10 man raiding seriously. There are 1-2 fights that 25 man is harder than 10 man (specifically Al'Akir). The rest require near perfect play by all 10 players.

When 2 people die in a 10 man, it's a wipe because you can only combat rez one of them, if 2 players die to the same mechanic in a 25 man raid, you just battle rez them and continue on like nothing happened.

[Willelm]

Depends entirely on the quality of raiders.

/thread

[Sonsys]

Thanks for the answers all Nice to see some good imput - I wasnt really asking if you thought one or the other - more just the experiances that you had.

I have to say that Boosting maybe 5 or 6 people in my current guild - The simple fights become significantly harder...
I guess Your correct really Irisel Gathering 10 people together and getting them to follow simple tactics is alot easier than getting 25 people to do the same.

My realm is low population so getting the good recruits is hard when 1 or 2 guilds have the stable player base and the realm 1st progress.

Anywhoooo's

Cheers for your thoughts!

Have a good day!

[Deleted]

While this is true you also have to take into consideration that many fights were vastly overtuned, read broken, for 10man raiding in the beginning. Fights such as Valiona which was impossible pre-fix. Etc.
Sinestra, pre 4.1, also was extremely RNG in 10mans, although not impossible to beat if lady luck was on your side.

Not really, Valiona was a hard fight on 10man heroic for sure, but it was the same on 25man.
Sinestra is actually a bit easier in 10man if you look at the overall challenge in the encounter, for example I have seen videos showing that the Eggs goes down in merely 7-8 seconds on 10man, but on 25man they go down in 23-27seconds for a progressing guild. Have also seen warlocks soloing the whelp adds. Wrack is a b*tch if lands on the tank in 10man, but it is the same on 25man - If the tank gets it, it usually ends up in an instant dispell or an earlier than normal dispell.

But I really have to say that I think 25man is more challenging due to having more people, sure you might say that people in 10man guilds have to perfect their gameplay to success, since if one dies, the whole raid dies - Well it is the same in 25man heroic modes, if one dps dies in for example chogall 25heroic you need to BR him or else it is a wipe.

[SegenThePally]

*Speaking about heroic modes* Everyone who is saying that 25 man is easier or even difficulty to 10 man obviously haven't done 10 man raiding seriously. There are 1-2 fights that 25 man is harder than 10 man (specifically Al'Akir). The rest require near perfect play by all 10 players.

When 2 people die in a 10 man, it's a wipe because you can only combat rez one of them, if 2 players die to the same mechanic in a 25 man raid, you just battle rez them and continue on like nothing happened.

2/10 = 20%
2/25 = 9%
Seeing as you get "more" of a battle rez in 10 than 25, you mean. you can only lose about 2% more of your group in 25 man.. (3/25 vs 1/10)

[Tokrath]

When people say that 25 man is easier the simple fact comes from you usually can get more people who are willing and able to swap spec. If you need another healer it is often much easier to find it in 25 man where as your 10 man group might not have another person who can spec healing.

Same things with Tanks.

Dps also ramps up a lot better because you have ever raid buff in a 25 man and a lot of 10 mans don't have every single buff.

So over all you get an easier environment in the 25 man vs the 10 mans because everyone is fully buffed, you can always hit the ideal number of tanks or healers. That tends to make the fights easier.

[Deleted]

There are a few things that make 10-man raiding feel unfair in comparison to 25-man raiding.

Primarily, one person has such a huge impact. If a player dies you see a huge los of loss of healing or dps, and also ability to soak/handle boss mechanics. Ressing them is terrible too, since you'd termporarily lose out on even more rolefilling. I'm not claiming you can easily 20-man any raid boss or something, but it's more than possible to continue despite losing someone, heck you can even sacrifice people to things like Valiona's Blackout or Atramedes tracking flame.

Take Valiona & Theralion as an example; with one guy in the shadow realm and a tank, one guy dying to something means soaking Blackouts is a whole lot more rough. Almost the entire raid must quit their roles and move up to soak it. One guy dying means it's more likely the same player is targeted by many shadow bolts simulataneously and gibbed.

Basic things like the fact that bosses have the same melee swing speed but only slightly less damage dealt in 10-man mode, debuffs have the same duration and amount of stacks/stackrate, meaning encounters like Chimaeron and Halfus are much more brutal and hard to counter on 10-man versions. You got far less utility, raid wide CDs etc. Heck, on 25-man mode you can practically chain raid wide CDs for the entire last phase of Magmaw or to cover any Electrocute on Nefarian.

[brirrspliff]

no this "rumour" is not true. it's mixed. for example, maloriak hardmode is HELL-OF-A-LOT easier in 10 man. so, don't trust such "rumours", and try it for yourself! .-)

[KaPe]

Not really, Valiona was a hard fight on 10man heroic for sure, but it was the same on 25man.

There was a detailed analysis about 10 man Valiona. Suffice to say, they weren't even remotely comparable, and you're only comparing them post nerf. "Balancing" was done in retarded way, by simly slashing 2/3rd of hitpoints, while ignoring anything else, like chance of multiple Rift Blasts targeting one person in 10 man vs 25 man.

[Deleted]

ITT:

No, my <Insert raid size> is harder because <generic reason that doesn't really make sense>. <Other raid size> is easier because <Generic reason 2>

[adamzz]

If you gather up 25 top notch 100% attendance players and put them in a 25man guild they would have about the same, if not alittle quicker progress, as a 10man guild with 10 top notch 100% attendance players.

If you are going to compare difficulty you can't account in for player failure, the fights aren't designed to fail on.

[Deleted]

no this "rumour" is not true. it's mixed. for example, maloriak hardmode is HELL-OF-A-LOT easier in 10 man. so, don't trust such "rumours", and try it for yourself! .-)

And funnily enough that one used to be way harder on 10 man, because they screwed up the health of the adds to the point where you'd need multiple demo locks to get them all down in time. Then they fixed it, presumably by overnerfing it.
Early in 4.0 I think the OP was correct. With the exception of Al'Akir heroic, pretty much every boss was harder in 10s.

[Kakuzo]

ITT:

No, my <Insert raid size> is harder because <generic reason that doesn't really make sense>. <Other raid size> is easier because <Generic reason 2>

This.


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