Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest

[Soranis]

While WoW may very well be the last MMO I play, the one thing I can definitively say is multiple sized-raid groups for endgame content is awful.

Case in point, Legendaries. When only one, two, or three of the "top" guilds per server are able to complete a single Legendary for one person in a 40man raid, that is Legendary.

When "Legendary" is a forgone conclusion for any relatively competent guild, and the only question for a 10man groups is "Can we make one or two" and the question for 25man groups is "Can we make three or four," then you've lost the meaning of Legendary.

Now, what does this have to do with multiple raid sizes? Well, if you are attempting to make 10s and 25s equal in difficulty and reward, then you must plan a Legendary first around 10man. The bare minimum is 1 Legendary for 10 people. Now, this isn't just a huge deal on its own, however, When dozens of 10mans per server have at least one Legendary weapon, now you start seeing an over-saturation. However, it gets worse because if you have a 1/10 ratio in 10s, you'll need a 2.5/25 ration in 25s, which means possibly 3 Legendaries in one guild not alone a server.

I don't know if there are other people out there like me, but I don't necessarily need or want a Grammy. Yeah, I compose music now an again, and it would be cool to get an award for it, but honestly, I don't think anything I've written is worthy of a Grammy. However, if all of a sudden they started handing out Grammies to anyone who wrote 20+min of orchestration, then who really cares about the Grammy. I'd rather have the best in the world get Grammys and applaud them for a job well done, and some day stand on their shoulders to accept my own Grammy for being the best, than getting a statue that has significantly decreased value.

Legendary isnt a legendary cause its legendary and unqiue its a legendary cause its way better than any other weapon atm.

[Deleted]

i want it but i often offspec heal in raids which makes the legendary useless when ill heal
so probally some herp derp pure dps will come with that claim and take it away from me
while there dps and role as interupter or what ever they do are way less significant then what i do

offspec as is in offspec to help out not really as i wanna heal and take a healer spot away

[[-Spiritus-]]

Legendary isnt a legendary cause its legendary and unqiue its a legendary cause its way better than any other weapon atm.

by that logic, the best statistical weapon for any given instance of time is legendary.

The gun John Wilkes Booth used to assassinate Lincoln is legendary, even though many superior firearms existed at the time. It is legendary because it is unique.

[Zuziza]

i want it but i often offspec heal in raids which makes the legendary useless when ill heal
so probally some herp derp pure dps will come with that claim and take it away from me
while there dps and role as interupter or what ever they do are way less significant then what i do

How often is often? Do you switch all the time? Is it because the other healers in your group aren't up to snuff or is it that your DPS is low and you're the first to be switched out?

Considering that this legendary staff was designed FOR caster DPS and you're not DPS all the time, I see no reason for you to think it's unfair other than greed. Caster DPS haven't had a legendary since Aetish, which is no longer obtainable. Healers recently had Vala'nyr, which you can still grind for if it's just for bragging rights.

As for being less significant, no, DPS are not less worthy of respect and gear than you. Both roles are vital to any given fight, and just how crazy awesome each role has to be varies by fights. They are not comparable because they have different responsibilities and raid utility. You could be the best healer in the world, but if you have shitty DPS in your raid, you're never going to kill a progression raid boss. Vice versa. Having a self-entitled attitude doesn't mean you should be the priority for gear that won't benefit your raid for every fight you're involved in.

[Deleted]

i top dps
its just that when there are no other decent healers in the guild online
that i get the spot to fill the last healer spot and get replaced with a lesser dpser

and all other hybrid dps are already swapped into a tank
most dps are pure dps classes in the guild

i could play stuborn and say i only can get legendary if i stay dps,
so get some 1 else to heal for you
as my main spec is SP not disc/holy
thought wonder how this works with attonemt disc as a side effect if i get it and they still ask to heal
(and i dont have to worry that much as all other dps are more or less non casters and the 1s that are do average dmg & arent there all time in raid)

anyway stage of getting it into legendary it still far from grasping & i think by time you are at P3 or something there are already other ppl behind you with P1 or/and P2



but from the reply im getting is kinda like only mages & warlocks can get the staff caus they are pure dps they cant help the guild out in any other way,
your sp to bad caus you might need to help out healing 1 day & make the staff useless
same aplys for druid & shaman

[Pontificate]

I never heal. Ever. Nor does the other Spriest in my guild.

[Baconwrap]

Ya, I consider my "main" spec as shadow but I haven't gotten to play shadow (other than a select few bosses) for 2 months because we cannot field enough healers. As much as I'd love to have the staff I'm not going to take it over someone who will get 100% use out of it.

Although I may try to make the Atonement argument because I do actually use it quite a bit.

[Bigslick]

Although I may try to make the Atonement argument because I do actually use it quite a bit.

If the legendary utility is based on a % to proc, pure dps will be proc more as all their casts are offensive. If it's some sort of % boost to their output, N% of 30k DPS > N% of 8k DPS. Of course, you did give the ''

[Argg0]

My priest's group (10man) is organized by me (shadow), a mage and a warlock. I have no idea who's getting it, but I want it...

[Zuziza]

i top dps
its just that when there are no other decent healers in the guild online
that i get the spot to fill the last healer spot and get replaced with a lesser dpser

and all other hybrid dps are already swapped into a tank
most dps are pure dps classes in the guild

i could play stuborn and say i only can get legendary if i stay dps,
so get some 1 else to heal for you
as my main spec is SP not disc/holy
thought wonder how this works with attonemt disc as a side effect if i get it and they still ask to heal
(and i dont have to worry that much as all other dps are more or less non casters and the 1s that are do average dmg & arent there all time in raid)

anyway stage of getting it into legendary it still far from grasping & i think by time you are at P3 or something there are already other ppl behind you with P1 or/and P2



but from the reply im getting is kinda like only mages & warlocks can get the staff caus they are pure dps they cant help the guild out in any other way,
your sp to bad caus you might need to help out healing 1 day & make the staff useless
same aplys for druid & shaman

That mentality is why Blizz went out of the way to mention that spriests, boomkins, and ele shamans could benefit, so it's sad to hear your guild totally ignores it because they want you to heal despite being top DPS. I'd suggest telling them that you want to go pure DPS and that they should get another healer. Drama always comes out of legendaries becoming available and it's annoying when you're a hybrid and people try to use that against you.

---------- Post added 2011-05-06 at 10:21 PM ----------

My priest's group (10man) is organized by me (shadow), a mage and a warlock. I have no idea who's getting it, but I want it...

Ditto, though I don't organize it and both the lock and mage are officers.

QQ

[Zodisius]

Ditto, though I don't organize it and both the lock and mage are officers. QQ

It makes me sad to see posts like this.(I'm not saying this is how your guild is or how it will be handled) I, personally, think it's absurd how officers feel the need to place themselves higher than the rest of the raid. Yes, they are organizing it, putting up with all the drama, leading the raids, but when it comes down to actually raiding everyone is putting in their effort. An officer shouldn't have priority over another member simply because they're an officer. Officers should, and it's their job too, keep the raid/guilds best interest in mind. Taking it for themselves when another Core Raider is 'better' doesn't make any sense.

Sorry for the little rant. Just brings back memories of ICC where our 2 Smournes went to officers who weren't nearly as good as other dedicated members who were in the guild for 9+ months.

[Zuziza]

It makes me sad to see posts like this.(I'm not saying this is how your guild is or how it will be handled) I, personally, think it's absurd how officers feel the need to place themselves higher than the rest of the raid. Yes, they are organizing it, putting up with all the drama, leading the raids, but when it comes down to actually raiding everyone is putting in their effort. An officer shouldn't have priority over another member simply because they're an officer. Officers should, and it's their job too, keep the raid/guilds best interest in mind. Taking it for themselves when another Core Raider is 'better' doesn't make any sense.

Sorry for the little rant. Just brings back memories of ICC where our 2 Smournes went to officers who weren't nearly as good as other dedicated members who were in the guild for 9+ months.

I was also agreeing with the "I have no idea who's getting it, but I want it..." comment as well. The officers are pretty good about not giving themselves BiS before everyone else, but there's some factors that come into play.

1) The group I play with has known each other for years, whereas I joined a few months ago and there's been people slightly newer/older than me both ragequitting and sticking around. I wouldn't blame them for worrying I'd run off with it, but it would bum me out to be looked over for that reason.

2) I'm usually top DPS, but in the next 2-3 weeks, I won't be able to play as much. I'm certain I'll be back before firelands, but missing out on heroic gear and progression kills could mean other DPS will outgear me (and out DPS me) when they start making the decision of who gets the staff once we start working for it.

3) While they weren't as stubborn as other guilds I've heard about, I had to have a long talk about Spirit/Haste gear so they'd know that denying me spirit gear would mean I'd pull shit DPS. (Just look up gear that has both hit and haste on wowhead; there's 3 items.) They're good about taking stats into account for assigning gear through loot council, as well as how much of an upgrade it is, etc. If the staff doesn't have haste or if it has more crit/hit/mastery than haste, the others could argue that they benefit more from those stats (meaning it's a bigger upgrade) compared to the second BiS item in the tier than I would. If that turns out to be true, what could I possibly say to counter it?

When #2 and #3 on the charts are literally right behind me on meters (sometimes surpassing me depending on the fight), it's difficult to argue that 100-200 dps alone means I should get the staff when they bring other utility to the raid. Basing it off one reason alone is a red flag, but I'm just worried that the other factors coming into play will work against me. I'll be working hard to show that i deserve the staff, but I'm not as naive to say that because I'm top DPS most of the time that I'll definitely get it.

[Varyk]

Ask Blizzard. They said in the blue post that if you have not cleared BoT, BWD, and To4W you cannot pick up the quest to start the legendary. It's probably their one way of trying to put a cap on how many people are running around with it. Remember Shadowmourne? Some guilds on my server had completed 4 between ICC and Cataclysm releasing. It's not very legendary when everyone who can equip it, has it.

how is that any different than the staff? Guilds that completed 4 had cleared toc by the time icc was around. We did 4 and had one guy with 20+shards at the end of wotlk.

---------- Post added 2011-05-07 at 06:33 PM ----------

3) While they weren't as stubborn as other guilds I've heard about, I had to have a long talk about Spirit/Haste gear so they'd know that denying me spirit gear would mean I'd pull shit DPS. (Just look up gear that has both hit and haste on wowhead; there's 3 items.) They're good about taking stats into account for assigning gear through loot council, as well as how much of an upgrade it is, etc. If the staff doesn't have haste or if it has more crit/hit/mastery than haste, the others could argue that they benefit more from those stats (meaning it's a bigger upgrade) compared to the second BiS item in the tier than I would. If that turns out to be true, what could I possibly say to counter it?

When #2 and #3 on the charts are literally right behind me on meters (sometimes surpassing me depending on the fight), it's difficult to argue that 100-200 dps alone means I should get the staff when they bring other utility to the raid. Basing it off one reason alone is a red flag, but I'm just worried that the other factors coming into play will work against me. I'll be working hard to show that i deserve the staff, but I'm not as naive to say that because I'm top DPS most of the time that I'll definitely get it.

just to chime in, it will undoubtedly be BiS for every staff wielding caster dps (all of them I believe). So there shouldnt be any argument over who benefits most from it. A BiS is a BiS imo.

[Deleted]

Well by blind chance i am the longest serveing caster (and officer) in my guild and so it decided that i will be the one to get it. Really looking forward to the quest line and hoping that being in a 10m guild wont effect our chances i.e. blizz gimp the drop the chances

[Bigslick]

just to chime in, it will undoubtedly be BiS for every staff wielding caster dps (all of them I believe). So there shouldnt be any argument over who benefits most from it. A BiS is a BiS imo.

Whether it is BIS for every caster dps or not (which I agree, it surely will be) is irrelevant to the argument as to who benefits most from it. Being BIS for all of them simply means they'll all want it as it will give them the greatest benefit of any weapon option. But it is entirely possible that the weapon's secondary stat distribution and proc may make it more optimal for select classes than others.

That being said, let's say the final version does favor one class slightly over another, the decision to whom it should be granted should certainly factor in things such as tenure, attendance, skill, and ability to not DIAF.

[Zuziza]

But it is entirely possible that the weapon's secondary stat distribution and proc may make it more optimal for select classes than others.

That being said, let's say the final version does favor one class slightly over another, the decision to whom it should be granted should certainly factor in things such as tenure, attendance, skill, and ability to not DIAF.

That's what I meant earlier by how much of an upgrade it is. For example, if it has an absurd amount of crit and a decent amount of haste, it would be a definite upgrade for a fire mage and a spriest, but the fire mage would get more out of it because they have a hard on for crit while it's so-so for spriests. It could be BiS for both, but stat weights may affect who it's best for. The proc could also be a determining factor. For example, if it increases SP or Int, spriests would have to refresh all their Dots during the proc to get benefit from it, but a destro lock or arcane mage wouldn't have to worry; if the proc is "better" for a type of caster DPS, will we get screwed over?

I do know my guild will try to take those other factors into account, so I'll be working my ass off to prove I'm worth giving it to even if I haven't been in guild as long as the others.

[Argg0]

One of the reasons that legendary items usually end up on officers hand (at least in my view as officer) is that the officers are required to be good players (you can't complain about someone doing bad DPS or standing in the fire if you are doing that too), so they are good options and they (probably) trust them. No one knows if Little John, that joined last week and has been topping the metters, will stick around after getting the item.

And trust me, it happens. My guild's first Shadowmourne wielder didn't even raid once with it with us and we though he was the right guy (he was with us since Ulduar). He simply stopped logging then he suddently left the guild and joined another one.

As for my current group... well, only the 3 of us are able to use it (we are ignoring the Resto druid for obvious reasons) so it will stay amoung one of us.