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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    The 2005 haste breakpoint will still give you more throughput, as long as you are healing correctly(aka using hots and not just direct healing). Using mastery correctly is fine and all and you should be using it anyway, but haste is still a better itemized and better throughput stat overall. No matter how you heal.

    I *can* heal using no hots. I *can* heal with no spi on any gear. It doesn't mean it's the correct or best way to do it.

    In the end, no, the haste breakpoint isn't one of those things that is optional if you want to get the most out of your druid. No matter what your mindset is, the haste breakpoint will massively increase your healing.
    All things considered right now, I have no DI in my raid group and no realistic way to get to 2005 haste at present, so I went for mastery stacking over haste leaving my haste at 916. I am quite sure it is the right choice for me at the moment.

  2. #22
    Fluffy Kitten Myrrar's Avatar
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    Because mastery is not weighed as much as haste when considering caps. That WG/efflor tick makes a massive difference. My main has had the cap forever so i don't really remember the difference but when I switched my alts gear around to get the cap in 10 regs her healing went up a huge amount, and this was before it effected efflor too.

    It's been proven in spreadsheets, in game, through ton of people testing all different ways and it's been proven time and time again, the haste breakpoint has become the biggest jump in throughput we can have. It's even been proven that you can loose up to 370int and still see a massive increase in healing. That's more than taking 2 passive int trinkets off completely.

    A lot of people were stubborn about the cap because lets be honest, it's a huge pain in the ass. As soon as they decided to just get it they saw the massive healing increase.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ganush View Post
    All things considered right now, I have no DI in my raid group and no realistic way to get to 2005 haste at present, so I went for mastery stacking over haste leaving my haste at 916. I am quite sure it is the right choice for me at the moment.
    The 2005 breakpoint is the WG / Efflo breakpoint with 5% haste (moonkin, shadow priest, ele shaman and possibly others). The same breakpoint with DI is 1573 assuming the same 5% haste buff.

    916 is the breakpoint for an extra rejuv tick assuming 5% haste. DI will substantially lower your breakpoints but most breakpoints I have seen do not assume DI because DI will typically be given to a fire mage or a shadow priest before you.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ganush View Post
    All things considered right now, I have no DI in my raid group and no realistic way to get to 2005 haste at present, so I went for mastery stacking over haste leaving my haste at 916. I am quite sure it is the right choice for me at the moment.
    Even without DI, you should still be trying for it as long as you have the 5%. As said, you can loose 310-370 int and still see a large healing increase. Now that efflor effects the 2005 breakpoint, it's not even debatable anymore.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    Because mastery is not weighed as much as haste when considering caps. That WG/efflor tick makes a massive difference. My main has had the cap forever so i don't really remember the difference but when I switched my alts gear around to get the cap in 10 regs her healing went up a huge amount, and this was before it effected efflor too.

    It's been proven in spreadsheets, in game, through ton of people testing all different ways and it's been proven time and time again, the haste breakpoint has become the biggest jump in throughput we can have. It's even been proven that you can loose up to 370int and still see a massive increase in healing. That's more than taking 2 passive int trinkets off completely.

    A lot of people were stubborn about the cap because lets be honest, it's a huge pain in the ass. As soon as they decided to just get it they saw the massive healing increase.
    Eh, that's all well and good but on heroic halfus this week I was easily healing over 20k heals per second so I don't really see the reason to switch around my gear substantially. My rejuv jumps up and heals at least 2k more per tick because of my mastery. It's like every time my rejuv ticks twice, I gain a new rejuv tick. If there was some way to have a virtual armory where you could test out healing without committing to any major changes, I would try it out, but I just don't see the reasoning behind it.

    A small caveat, I don't trust spreadsheets. They've led me wrong far too many times. I don't see any possible way a spreadsheet could have any relevance to healing. Perhaps dps. Not healing.

    The simple fact is that the mastery I would lose to gain this haste would drop my healing by at least 12% for each heal I make. I view that to be a fairly massive loss considering almost every heal I make will be effected by mastery.
    Last edited by Ganoes; 2011-05-03 at 08:32 PM.

  6. #26
    Fluffy Kitten Myrrar's Avatar
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    As said, you can not do it if you choose but the fact that every single HM druid has their cap, every single guide with people testing in game and out say get your cap. You *will* see a healing increase with the cap. It't not debatable, you will. Also, the resto druid spreadhseets have been tested over and over again in game to make sure they are correct, and they are.



    If you choose to gimp yourself, that's your choice. =]

  7. #27
    Every single HM druid tank stacks pure stamina at the expense of everything else and the spreadsheets say to stack agility. Obviously things are not cut and dry, no matter how much you want them to be.

    I view it to be very debateable. And, again, I don't view spreadsheets to provide relevant information for healing, when healing is based on many factors that spreadsheets cannot possibly cover. Healing is not analagous to dps and healing is not something that you can map out precisely. Healing is reactive and fluid. Healing is based on choices, not adherence to a rotation.

  8. #28
    Fluffy Kitten Myrrar's Avatar
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    As I said, there is no point debating it. If you want to be stubborn and not try it, don't. But no matter what you think, it WILL increase your healing by a ton. There have been tons of people who have help getting the cap on these forums and come back a week later thanking everyone because their healing jumped a ridiculous amount.

    Mastery is great, but it does not scale as well as haste, no matter if you really want it to or not.

    Also, let me just say, I don't 100% go with everything spreadhseets do. I argue against them a lot depending on what it is since it going to depend on the fight, the length of the fight, raid comp, and so on. But, the haste cap is one of those things that you can physically see from logs, from people who have updated, you can easily see that the haste cap is not one of these instances.

    Also, you say the top druids are doing one thing and the spreadhseets are doing something else. So you either believe one of them. In game testers and the spreadsheets agree, so, that's not really a good excuse or proof.

    Trying to claim something one be a buff when you haven't tried it and there is just so much testing proving it, you're just being stubborn. But just know, that stubbornness is just making it so you are loosing very, very easy throughput gains.

  9. #29
    Very easy? Nah, not with my gear. I'd have to regem from top to bottom. Even then I'd probably lose my 4 piece, which I would certainly not do.

  10. #30
    Fluffy Kitten Myrrar's Avatar
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    If you want to link your gear we can help you see how close you can get. We have like, 7 threads/posts a day asking that very thing. Most of the time it's a lot easier than people think. And if you already have 4 piece you probably have more than enough gear to get it.

    We have people that have mostly blues at the 2005 breakpoint, which was very impressive because I didn't even try on my alt until she had mostly epics, lol

  11. #31
    I'm not saved in my PVE gear. I did some arena with a guildy last night before logging.

  12. #32
    If you have 4 pc and still cant get to 2005, something is very wrong with your gemming/reforging. 2005 is what you can get without any trouble if you are in that kind of gear. While you may argue about spreadsheets being different from the real world, you will get an extra tick, whether its a spreadsheet or in-game. With the changes to efflo, 2005 is a must have if u can get it.
    Symbiosis is the weakest healing mastery and even so, after 2005, u can stack mastery.

  13. #33
    Symbiosis is far from the weakest healing mastery. It's actually flat out amazing for both 10 man raid healing and tank healing. Considering I am a 10 man healer, Symbiosis is straight up awesome because I can get both benefits, raid and tank healing, simultaneously. In a 25 man where I couldn't reasonably expect to have my rejuv and wg on the same target, I could see symbiosis being very weak for raid healing, but in a 10 man, where I can reasonably expect to have both on the same target, it's amazing. Mastery has no scaling issues either, it has a linear model where one point of mastery provides the same amount of benefit no matter how little or much you have.

    If I gave up almost 1100 mastery for haste, I would lose about 10% mastery IIRC which would drop my mastery effect by a LOT. I don't see an extra tick on WG even comparing. If I was struggling healing, I would be more open to advice to fix my issues. But since I dominate healing meters by a LOT, I see little reason in changing my methodology. I have a 360 PVE ilevel, btw. Most of my gear has spirit as one secondary stat, mastery as the other, or crit, such as two of my tier pieces (chest and legs), neck (halfus), helm (atramedes IIRC) and so on.

    I see little reason for your particular druid to be hovering between breakpoints like that. You should reforge a couple hundred haste to mastery.

  14. #34
    Fluffy Kitten Myrrar's Avatar
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    10% mastery is worth the breakpoint.

    And I think he means out of all the healing masteries ours is the worst, which is true.

    As said, I can dominate meters in 10s 1/2 naked, if you want the most out of your druids healing potential, even in 10s, you'll get the 2005 breakpoint. You also seem to forget it buffs Efflor too.

    On every fight Wg should be your #1 or 2, and now efflor should be high up there too. You are trading straight throughput(since haste doesn't just make our casting faster but gives it an extra tick) for a buff to that throughput, which is why as said, it does not scale as well as haste.

    You can fight it all you want. I did not want to, under any circumstance, get that breakpoint for my 10s druid because it was just a pain in the ass. I did and I noticed it right away, along with my other 2 healers who promptly asked after a night of raiding what ups I got that increased my healing so much.

    It seems no matter who tells you it's better and what proof they have you'll change your mind. Just know in the future when you decide to just do it for whatever reason, just like we all did after not wanting to waste the time dropping so many stats for something that doesn't seem amazing, we told you so =]

  15. #35
    No, paladin healing mastery is unqualifiably worse since the shield only affects about 50% of their healing. I believe both discipline and holy mastery could be seen as either on par or inferior. I would say resto shaman mastery is the only "superior" mastery and even then, it all depends on the fight. A fight like Chimaeron and resto shaman mastery is amazing. A fight like probably every single other normal mode raid and the mastery starts to slip. For resto shamans, mastery is awesome for healing people that are low hp and absolutely terrible for topping off people. On a fight where healing isn't that major, their mastery is pretty damn worthless.

    It's definitely not true that resto druid mastery is the worst. We actually have arguably the best mastery.

    WG is definitely one of my top spells but it gets affected by mastery, same as any other spell. One scenario is I cast WG, some of the people still need healing so I cast rejuv on them. Some more AOE comes out so I WG again, which lands on people that have rejuv on them. The WG will definitely be increased, the rejuv will be increased, and so on. Mastery also increases my efflorescence. And my healing touch, nourish, lifebloom, tranquillity, regrowth... you get the idea. Tree form -> lifebloom spam -> wild growth is something to behold. I'll spike over 25k heals per second with that, at least.
    Last edited by Ganoes; 2011-05-04 at 02:24 AM.

  16. #36
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    Yes, and haste will still do more. What part of this are you not getting? The amount of mastery you have vs the haste you need for cap will give you less throughput.

    You can keep justifying it to yourself all you want, that's not going to change the numbers. And we have the only mastery that has to be procd, which is why ours is considered worst. All of theirs has a 100% uptime which in the end, even on weak masteries, will equal out to more overall healing. Because even if you fully focus on making sure your heals are procing mastery, not only are you missing out on healing elsewhere( it's just a bad way to heal) it's going to be significantly less than 100% uptime. Our mastery is very good, don't get me wrong.

  17. #37
    Moderator Uggorthaholy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganoes View Post
    I believe both discipline and holy mastery could be seen as either on par or inferior.
    I love holy priest mastery. I'm at extra 21% healing as a hot (helps with aura damage, etc) over 6 secs, for 0 mana - this includes heals from PoH

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganoes View Post
    For resto shamans, mastery is awesome for healing people that are low hp and absolutely terrible for topping off people
    I believe their mastery was changed in 4.1 to just improve all healing all the time. This would make resto shamans the best mastery for healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganoes View Post
    WG is definitely one of my top spells but it gets affected by mastery, same as any other spell. One scenario is I cast WG, some of the people still need healing so I cast rejuv on them. Some more AOE comes out so I WG again, which lands on people that have rejuv on them. The WG will definitely be increased, the rejuv will be increased, and so on. Mastery also increases my efflorescence. And my healing touch, nourish, lifebloom, tranquillity, regrowth... you get the idea. Tree form -> lifebloom spam -> wild growth is something to behold. I'll spike over 25k heals per second with that, at least.
    The discussion was never about mastery being awful. In fact, there is no discussion. The spreadsheet, raid trials, parses, logs, experience ALL CLEARLY show haste being > mastery.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    Yes, and haste will still do more. What part of this are you not getting? The amount of mastery you have vs the haste you need for cap will give you less throughput.

    You can keep justifying it to yourself all you want, that's not going to change the numbers. And we have the only mastery that has to be procd, which is why ours is considered worst. All of theirs has a 100% uptime which in the end, even on weak masteries, will equal out to more overall healing. Because even if you fully focus on making sure your heals are procing mastery, not only are you missing out on healing elsewhere( it's just a bad way to heal) it's going to be significantly less than 100% uptime. Our mastery is very good, don't get me wrong.
    Paladin has 50% mastery uptime because their mastery does not proc on every heal.

    It doesn't matter if some people consider resto druid mastery to be the worst. In a 25 man, I would agree. In a 10 man, I would strongly disagree. You act like you have to go out of your way to benefit from mastery, but in a 10 man, that's not the case at all. I'd actually say you have to go out of your way and do absolutely stupid things like cast Wild Growth on some hunter standing way away from the group to not benefit from mastery.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-04 at 03:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by uggorthaholy View Post
    I love holy priest mastery. I'm at extra 21% healing as a hot (helps with aura damage, etc) over 6 secs, for 0 mana - this includes heals from PoH
    I love resto druid mastery. I'm at over 20% extra healing for my core spells, that never has to be activated, has no extra cost, and works on every spell I have. On a tank which I have 3x LB, Rejuv, Regrowth, Wild Growth, Efflorescence, EVERY SPELL is affected. Every one.

    I believe their mastery was changed in 4.1 to just improve all healing all the time. This would make resto shamans the best mastery for healing.
    You would be wrong. Resto shaman mastery was not changed. It still has almost no effect on healing someone at 90% health but has a massive effect healing someone at 10% health. It's great for healing people that are low and absolutely as useless as could be for topping someone off.


    The discussion was never about mastery being awful. In fact, there is no discussion. The spreadsheet, raid trials, parses, logs, experience ALL CLEARLY show haste being > mastery.
    Again, I value spreadsheets for healing about as much as I value the toilet paper I just flushed down the drain. I don't see that as being valuable in any way, ever, for healing. In fact, I don't think you can quantify it mathematically at all. For pretty much every fight I heal, the reason I don't do more than, say, 12k heals per second isn't because I can't, it's because there's nothing left to heal.

    I also enjoy all these references to spreadsheets and parses with absolutely no evidence. That's a losing game. You can't just make a claim like that and expect people to believe it. And you guys act like people don't have different healing styles. I am the type of healer that gets people to come to them and beg for advice. People become shocked when they inspect my shaman and see all my 333 blues. Because I intrinsically, fundamentally understand healing in an intuitive manner and it all makes sense to me, like a puzzle falling into place. All these anecdotal stories work both ways. The only possible evidence I would give credence to is a resto druid, healing alongside me, in a 10 man, stacking haste, and outhealing me (assuming we are equally geared or I have better gear).
    Last edited by Ganoes; 2011-05-04 at 03:12 AM.

  19. #39
    Fluffy Kitten Myrrar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganoes View Post
    I also enjoy all these references to spreadsheets and parses with absolutely no evidence. That's a losing game. You can't just make a claim like that and expect people to believe it. And you guys act like people don't have different healing styles. I am the type of healer that gets people to come to them and beg for advice. People become shocked when they inspect my shaman and see all my 333 blues. Because I intrinsically, fundamentally understand healing in an intuitive manner and it all makes sense to me, like a puzzle falling into place. All these anecdotal stories work both ways. The only possible evidence I would give credence to is a resto druid, healing alongside me, in a 10 man, stacking haste, and outhealing me (assuming we are equally geared or I have better gear).
    Yeaaaah, this is where you just lost all credit. Sorry, herpderps I'm amazing doesn't work here. And you being stubborn not playing your class to the fullest is sad. I hope one day you stop being so stubborn thinking you know everything and consider that may just not be the case. Until then, you can think you are the perfect healer, but you will be far from.

    Sad really, but no point continuing the discussion.

    But really, all these druids, top 100, theorycrafters, number crunchers, forum readers are pulling all of this out of their asses and you, who have not tested anything, know because....well, you just do!!!

  20. #40
    Moderator Uggorthaholy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganoes View Post
    Paladin has 50% mastery uptime because their mastery does not proc on every heal.

    It doesn't matter if some people consider resto druid mastery to be the worst. In a 25 man, I would agree. In a 10 man, I would strongly disagree. You act like you have to go out of your way to benefit from mastery, but in a 10 man, that's not the case at all. I'd actually say you have to go out of your way and do absolutely stupid things like cast Wild Growth on some hunter standing way away from the group to not benefit from mastery.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-04 at 03:11 AM ----------



    I love resto druid mastery. I'm at over 20% extra healing for my core spells, that never has to be activated, has no extra cost, and works on every spell I have. On a tank which I have 3x LB, Rejuv, Regrowth, Wild Growth, Efflorescence, EVERY SPELL is affected. Every one.



    You would be wrong. Resto shaman mastery was not changed. It still has almost no effect on healing someone at 90% health but has a massive effect healing someone at 10% health. It's great for healing people that are low and absolutely as useless as could be for topping someone off.




    Again, I value spreadsheets for healing about as much as I value the toilet paper I just flushed down the drain. I don't see that as being valuable in any way, ever, for healing. In fact, I don't think you can quantify it mathematically at all. For pretty much every fight I heal, the reason I don't do more than, say, 12k heals per second isn't because I can't, it's because there's nothing left to heal.

    I also enjoy all these references to spreadsheets and parses with absolutely no evidence. That's a losing game. You can't just make a claim like that and expect people to believe it. And you guys act like people don't have different healing styles. I am the type of healer that gets people to come to them and beg for advice. People become shocked when they inspect my shaman and see all my 333 blues. Because I intrinsically, fundamentally understand healing in an intuitive manner and it all makes sense to me, like a puzzle falling into place. All these anecdotal stories work both ways. The only possible evidence I would give credence to is a resto druid, healing alongside me, in a 10 man, stacking haste, and outhealing me (assuming we are equally geared or I have better gear).
    So you are right, even though you have no purely factual evidence saying you are right or wrong?

    This is where I end my part in the conversation, because your logic has obvious holes. PS - your mastery does not work on every heal. it works on every heal that has a hot on the target. I always get a bonus 21%, you only get it if you have another spell up. There is no way to get yours to work 100% of the time. Logic dictates that to be intrinsically false.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-03 at 11:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrar View Post
    Yeaaaah, this is where you just lost all credit. Sorry, herpderps I'm amazing doesn't work here. And you being stubborn not playing your class to the fullest is sad. I hope one day you stop being so stubborn thinking you know everything and consider that may just not be the case. Until then, you can think you are the perfect healer, but you will be far from.

    Sad really, but no point continuing the discussion.

    But really, all these druids, top 100, theorycrafters, number crunchers, forum readers are pulling all of this out of their asses and you, who have not tested anything, know because....well, you just do!!!
    Glad we are on the same page here - and I don't even play a resto druid anymore XD

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