DoT Refresh Question

[Fulbert]

If I have lightweave, volcano card, power torrent, etc go off and then I refresh my dots I know they'll be way more powerful. I heard that you can keep them ticking for larger numbers if you never let them drop off. Can anyone speak to this? I was under the assumption that a dot constantly rechecked and decided its dmg amount each time they ticked. Can anyone speak to that? How about with empowered shadow, does that only effect the dot well its up after it disapears or only well its up?

[Kaesebrezen]

I was under the assumption that a dot constantly rechecked and decided its dmg amount each time they ticked.

That assumption is wrong. Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague takes Spellpower at cast, while Shadow Word: Pain is calculated at cast or when refreshed through Pain and Suffering. The same holds true for Empowered Shadows.

[Bareno]

I think that was true back in WOTLK, but got changed in cata to the model you're talking about now.

[Deleted]

I believe the "rolling" Dots mechanism was possible for a while during WotLK with self-refreshing Dots like SW:P and Corruption.

However, I believe the mechanics were changed in 3.3 so that even self-refreshing Dots are updated on a regular basis. All other Dots are recalculated when they're recast.

As a general rule of thumb: One spellpower proc doesn't warrant the premature recasting of a Dot. Only once you have two stacking effects is it a DPS increase.

[Deleted]

VT and DP checks for damage multipliers when they land on target - not when they are cast.

[Arlee]

VT and DP checks for damage multipliers when they land on target - not when they are cast.

well this is wrong because DP is instant cast so there is no difference between cast time and when it lands -_-

You can't keep these buffs indefinitely, but you can recast VT and DP right before those buffs wear off to extend the amount of time you are benefiting from those buffs. Of course if you then recast without the buffs you will over write that.

[Jerryfalwell]

That assumption is wrong. Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague takes Spellpower at cast, while Shadow Word: Pain is calculated at cast or when refreshed through Pain and Suffering. The same holds true for Empowered Shadows.

^ This is true, VT and DP need to be recast to apply new amounts of Spell power gains while mind flay will refresh those changes automatically with Pain and Suffering. It used to be true that you could keep a crit multiplier on SW:P for an entire boss encounter (ie, nevermelting ice crystals + pot) because crit and haste were not included in the SW:P refresh mechanic. Now SW:P acts like other dots when auto refreshed as if you were manually refreshing it (technically you are). Empowered shadow is just another spell power increase, so it is also the same as if you pre-potted/potted.

[Karei]

well this is wrong because DP is instant cast so there is no difference between cast time and when it lands -_-

You can't keep these buffs indefinitely, but you can recast VT and DP right before those buffs wear off to extend the amount of time you are benefiting from those buffs. Of course if you then recast without the buffs you will over write that.

It is true for VT so casting VT just as the buff wears off results in said buff not being calculated in the VT you just casted.
Your VT HAS TO have finished casting and landed with your buff up or it won't count.
Obviously since DP is instant cast this is a moot problem for said skill.

[Milkshake86]

That assumption is wrong. Vampiric Touch and Devouring Plague takes Spellpower at cast, while Shadow Word: Pain is calculated at cast or when refreshed through Pain and Suffering. The same holds true for Empowered Shadows.

not anymore everything is dynamic, no longer do dots/hots only gain on cast snapshot of stats its all dynamic.

[Stefanish]

Can anyone confirm if its better to reapply dots when Power Torrent procs? or Volcano? or both? or any others trinkets?, any link to theorycrafting about this will be great.

[Arlee]

It is true for VT so casting VT just as the buff wears off results in said buff not being calculated in the VT you just casted.
Your VT HAS TO have finished casting and landed with your buff up or it won't count.
Obviously since DP is instant cast this is a moot problem for said skill.

I think you had a case of misreading there. I did not say that the part about VT was untrue, only the part about DP was wrong...

not anymore everything is dynamic, no longer do dots/hots only gain on cast snapshot of stats its all dynamic.

If by "dynamic" you mean that they update at each tick (people have been saying this a lot recently) than no that is not true. DoTs update when you recast them or they are refreshed (like sw: pain through MF).

[Deleted]

If all your CD's procs at the exact same time, I would refresh VT and DP.
Else I would just let it be, I think (That might be cause I am no hardcore raider and ain't going to start calculating on DPS increase and blah blah).

[Deleted]

Imp DP is higher DPS than mindflay, however it is not maintainable due to mana issues (you'd have to have innervates rolled on you constantly(Literally) which just isn't feasible). For this reason, you should always re-cast DP if you gain a proc, mana allowing.

VT is a little bit more complicated as you have to take into account opportunity cost. It also depends how far into it's duration it is - if it's about to get to the point where you'd usually refresh it, then there's very little opportunity cost, of course.

If it has it's full duration left, however, you'd have to figure out: VT coefficient * difference in spellpower vs ~1.5 MF clips. If the first is higher, recast VT regardless of its duration remaining. If the second is higher, don't recast it.

For any remaining duration between just casted and about to drop off, you'd have to see the difference between the above. I'd say, as a general rule, re-apply VT if you gain more than one buff.

[Skyve]

Imp DP is higher DPS than mindflay, however it is not maintainable due to mana issues (you'd have to have innervates rolled on you constantly(Literally) which just isn't feasible). For this reason, you should always re-cast DP if you gain a proc, mana allowing.

Actually, I wonder about that. It seems to depend a lot on your crit-chance, since mindflay crits reduce shadowfiend dps.

[Deleted]

I have a question regarding Empowered Shadows. So we get this buff when we have a shadow orb and we use mind blast / spike, but when the buff is finishing and we use mind blast to refresh the buff, does the get refreshed or replaced? Because I have theralion's mirror and it would be nice if I could put empowered shadow's with the mastery buff for the rest of the whole fight.

Thank you and sorry for my english :P

[Skyve]

I have a question regarding Empowered Shadows. So we get this buff when we have a shadow orb and we use mind blast / spike, but when the buff is finishing and we use mind blast to refresh the buff, does the get refreshed or replaced? Because I have theralion's mirror and it would be nice if I could put empowered shadow's with the mastery buff for the rest of the whole fight.

Thank you and sorry for my english :P

It doesn't matter whether it is refreshed or replaced, because the same rule as the one for DoTs applies here - if you have the mastery procc active and then use your shadow orbs, you will get the buffed version of empowered shadows, no matter the case.

[Milkshake86]

All dots are dynamic they donot carry damage buffs once they fall and gain them once they pop. This was a cata change and was left off feral bleeds hence why ferals were doing insane numbers on H Nefarian which was quickly hotfixed. Any dot will change w/ your DMG/INT/CRit/Haste buffs as they proc.

[Deleted]

Above poster is wrong. This is why shadowpriests are good at nefarion heroic still. Just try it yourself.

[Milkshake86]

Yea im definitely not. Noone has come close to the top spriest on nef in months...clearly they didnt make sure it was carrying Swp dmg when they fixed the feral bleed to not carry it on execute refresh. Pls if u believe priestlyone Refresh your dots every time u MB w/ an orb. Not only will u do less dps and burn your mana but you will be proven wrong.

[Deleted]

SWP != all dots. Yes, SWP damage changes, because you effectively re-cast it with mindflay. Other dots are not re-cast in such a way, so they do not update until you re-cast.

Go to a dummy. Cast Vampiric Touch. Check the amount of damage each tick does. One of these ticks is likely to set off a proc - see how much VT tick hits with the proc up. Then, recast VT while the proc is up. You've got 3 numbers now. If I'm right, 1 and 2 are the same, the 3rd number will be higher. If Milkshake is right, 2 and 3 will both be the same.

EDIT:
If you want to claim you've done this, and still say VT/DP's damage is re-calculated each tick, then post a WoL. It would change many, many shadowpriest's playstyle if this were true.