[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Sooba]

at 300 yards it takes roughly 5 seconds to hit and this is with the bows used today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et23I9zneqk Video with 100, 200 and 300 yards. I'm told 140m takes about 4 seconds with a long bow.

Yeah, not sure where the 1 second tops is coming from. Volleys were visible for some time. It was an effective psychological tactic as well as militarily powerful.

So no, Elim, with his head on a swivel he'd have had time to see a shot was made. And why he wouldn't "just barely" dodge as opposed to change direction entirely is evident both in terms of efficacy/statistics as well as standard instinctive psychology. You don't make it a bare miss. You make sure.

[Tempguy]

"Should" Rikon have Zig-Zagged? Yes, why not. Probably wouldn't have helped in the end but whatever. Does it make sense that he did not? Absolutely.

How many people here have been in a situation where their life was in danger?
(Raises hand)

How many people have actually had someone trying to kill them?
(Raises hand)


If you have been in a similar situation (as close as we can get in the modern era) You learn one thing that outsiders always fail to grasp. Hindsight is a motherfucker. Couch quarterbacks will tell you all day what you should have done after they watched the situation unfold. It's so simple for them to say "Hey mate, should have zig zagged." Just like it's easy to tell a rape victim "hey girl, should have yelled for help. Or screamed Fire instead of Rape." Just like telling that guy who got shot "Hey man, should have zig zagged." Weird how people IRL fail to zig zag so much? You'd think this would be common knowledge and easy to call back on and execute when your fight or flight instinct kicks in?


In the military, we train a lot. But here is the thing people don't see a lot. When you are doing individual level training, the goal isn't to make you "better" as in more accurate with shots or what have you. The goal is to have you do something so much that your body will just react naturally without input from your brain.

But Tempguy? Why do that when you can just train to zig-zag and shit?

Cause when shit hits the fan and your senses go crazy you will most likely not be in a proper state of mind and able to think clearly/quick enough.


Also, Rikon ran far as fuck. Like, really fucking far. At a dead sprint (unless you think he was taking his time). He was most likely exhausted. And zig zagging would have just made him even more tired, as well as make it take even longer to reach Jon. In fact, You could easily see Ramsay's experience with scaring him and waiting for him to finally think he is almost free, and already dog tired, before killing him. Even if the kid zig zagged, it would have ended the same. When he is like 50 meters from Jon, and so tired, he would stop, and Ramsay would know that and be ready.

How would Ramsay know Tempguy? You can't predict how someone would act.

Um, Ramsay hunts people. After you do something enough times, yeah, you start to see patterns in human nature and will be able to predict what they will do. It's like lying to your mom as a kid. You think this lie is rock solid, meanwhile she has seen it hundreds of times already and already know's the deal.

Any way you slice it, the kid was a goner. Zig zagging may work, if he had only a short distance to go, had a strong enough mind to ignore his instincts, and Ramsay was a poor shot.

[RobertoCarlos]

Enter the math expert to break down the distance and size of the field Rickon was running on, the torque and angle of the arrow as it left the bow and its expected flight path travel time. Then add in variables like wind resistances and dew in the cold air. Ty.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Not all military wear armor and not all military carry shields. Not to mention evasion tactics are especially important for a young lord of the realm.

Rickon also didn't have a shield

[pateuvasiliu]

Ramsay has been shown as a great marksman.

No idea how or why because he grew up at a farm without a father ( shouldn't he be emaciated??? ) but whatever.

[RobertoCarlos]

It would be interesting to "measure" just how far away from Ramsay he was. Because it looked SO far.

Actually landing an accurate longbow shot at that range - even on someone moving in a straight line - is no joke.

Oh absolutely. Its still incredibly difficult to this day to hit a target even with a compound bow.

But its been established in game of thrones world Ramsey is a top tier bowman because of all his time hunting people in the woods with a bow. So its consistent with the internal rules of the show so its fine with me. Aryas physical movements after massive damage are not fine with me. I thought humans in the show were still human.

It was even a stretch she survived the stabbing and didnt die to infection/blood loss. But whatever milk of the poppy in all that...

[Elim Garak]

Not all military wear armor and not all military carry shields. Not to mention evasion tactics are especially important for a young lord of the realm.

All lords wear armor. You don't evade arrows, you block them. Because in a real combat situation there will be many enemy archers shooting at you, you cannot evade every arrow.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, not sure where the 1 second tops is coming from. Volleys were visible for some time. It was an effective psychological tactic as well as militarily powerful.

So no, Elim, with his head on a swivel he'd have had time to see a shot was made.

nope. it's not about the time. it's about fucking visual capability. He couldn't have seen the shot being made from that distance.

[Leyre]

for all the people who said rick should have zizzagged

https://youtu.be/-U_IRXhodds?t=114

[Elim Garak]

Rickon also didn't have a shield

He had Jon to whom he ran. If anything he could've hid behind the horse.

[Leyre]

Rickon should have.....hid in a clothing store?

Damn right he should have

[Tempguy]

Oh absolutely. Its still incredibly difficult to this day to hit a target even with a compound bow.

But its been established in game of thrones world Ramsey is a top tier bowman because of all his time hunting people in the woods with a bow. So its consistent with the internal rules of the show so its fine with me. Aryas physical movements after massive damage are not fine with me. I thought humans in the show were still human.

It was even a stretch she survived the stabbing and didnt die to infection/blood loss. But whatever milk of the poppy in all that...

Waifenator- 1000 should have established the Faceless men are machines.

Arya is basically that dude from Terminator Salvation. She only thinks she is human.

[Wilderness]

No, but it is something someone who has watched military training, and perhaps even received a bit, their entire life would know. The Stark children fall into that category, especially the boys. We saw evidence of them training in the realm of archery in episode 1...

Yes, they've obviously been around some military training, but not that much, especially Rickon. He's not anything near a warrior or combat veteran and the little things he'd have started learning as a younger boy are not going to prepare him to think strategically and quickly in that situation. He's just a scared boy.

The smart archer would. And I think Ramsay would be smart. You wouldn't really have to locate the arrow in the air though. At least, assuming poor / no training you wouldnt. You would simply change direction somewhat under the assumption he was aiming at you. At that point, the bowman would have to gauge not only wind conditions and distance and lie, but also try and guess where you're going to go. His chance of hitting would be so low as to be laughable.

Then it has to come back to being unpredictable again, which requires even more clear thinking in the moment because if you operate on instinct you're going to have a pattern to how you move. If you have a pattern its no better than running straight because the archer can still lead where he knows you'll be.

The chances of Ramsay hitting him like he did were still pretty low outside of the plot needing it to happen. It was pretty far shot based on the ground that had been covered, and sniper-like accuracy with arrows on a battlefield are an incredible degree of difficulty. Ramsay's lackadaisical and casual approach fits his character toying with people perfectly, but to actually have it play out like it did and have him hit that shot is more unbelievable than anything involving Rickon.

[Khadgar]

Rickon should have ran backwards, stopped when the arrow was closing in, and dodged accordingly.

[Khadgar]

Just a scared boy who's old enough to fight in battles in a medieval world? Again, as a little lord basic things, like evasion, for staying alive would be taught to you at a young age. He knows arrows fly straight and that hitting moving targets is harder than hitting stationary targets.

As for the unpredictable part, it's harder to maintain an exactly precise zigzag when you're terrified than it is to be erratic. When you're scared you aren't counting number of steps or turning at specific angles.

Really it's all a pointless conversation as all we'd have gotten if he'd been zigzagging is Ramsey getting bored and calling for a full volley. Rickon dies and that's that.



Meh, we've seen people make some pretty impressive shots with arrows in the show before. And since he wasn't actually in a battle and was just calmly shooting at a single person running away(probably something he's done before letting his dogs loose for a meal) I don't find it implausible. No more so than a dead man coming back to life after lying on a slab for an extended period or dragons flying around.

was it ever mentioned Rickon actually had any significant amount of training if any at all? I mean in the first book he was 3 years old, while Bran was 7. and they've been on the run since Ramsay took Winterfell in season 2?

[Adam Jensen]

All lords wear armor. You don't evade arrows, you block them. Because in a real combat situation there will be many enemy archers shooting at you, you cannot evade every arrow.

Unless your Jon Snow.

Jon Snow popped Evasion that fight.

[Khadgar]

Unless your Jon Snow.

Jon Snow popped Evasion that fight.

Jon Snow is one of the Lord of Light's chosen ones, he has supernatural luck. :P

[Elim Garak]

Unless your Jon Snow.

Jon Snow popped Evasion that fight.

The only time he was shot directly - he had a shield

[Adam Jensen]

The only time he was shot directly - he had a shield

I was talking about how Jon somehow survived volley after volley of arrow from Ramsay's armies.

[Elim Garak]

I was talking about how Jon somehow survived volley after volley of arrow from Ramsay's armies.

A volley is a blind shot, he just got lucky.

[draynay]

I can't believe such a dumb scene has inspired so many posts.