Why does PVE always get penalized for PVP?

[Nasia311]

It never fails, PVP unbalance seems to cause nerfs and serious feeling of being gut-punched to the PVE only Mage. The PVP forums fill up so fast when one thing is perceived "OP" about mages the PVE side feels direct effects when I don't even feel involved in the PVP side.

Let me explain:

I believe fully that 6s is a bit much. I don't pvp much, but I understand the powers a Mage has in the pvp side of the game. That said nerfing SS for the purpose of pvp in some form (3s cd?) "only keep the most recent buff stolen (overwriting previously stolen buffs)", all sound fine to me. The Issue I see from the PVE viewpoint is this. If you want SS to be nerfed, increase the overall Mage Pve dmg output. I know folks will shout and cry and say " look at stateofdps currently, Mages are owning!!". It's smoke and mirrors folks. Mages currently top charts in mostly gimmick fights. Simple as that.

Halfus? Gimmick AOE. ODS? Gimmick arcanotron Steal. Chogall? Gimmick Insta Pyro. Mal? Gimmick SS/Aoe. Often us stealing quickly and multtiple stacks of said buffs allow us not only to save the raid from massive dmg input but in all honestly if your raid boss fight doesnt have a ton of adds or a dmg ability buff for us to steal. Mages are not really competitive toe to toe with other classes. Sure arc can burst to the top for a burn phase or pull only to medium out more times then not due to the absurd hover rotation and trying to keep 85% mana over the course of a 9-11min fight. Fireball simply gets blown away in the dust without a few lucky HS procs by hunters/rets/locks/ I can keep naming.

The point is sure there are other classes who can dispell or remove a raid boss buff. But allowing us to do it usually is a breaking point in staying in top 3 dmg. I have no issues with nerfing SS if thats what the people want. I do have an issue that breaking top 5 on sustained DPS without lucky RNG is an issue overall. The ignite fix didnt exactly improve our dps. The arc changes made Arc viable to some extent. But it's frustrating when You have top end gear or close to it and yet still sometimes get creamed by hunters/ret/ rogues/ etc because that fight your number of crits were just, unlucky or no adds etc.

Am I overall happy with the state of mages? ATM yes, but slowly but surely, one by one changes are being made that while may not be drastic. (ROF NERF)Is tough to swallow knowing without gimmicks/aoe/dmg spells to steal. We just arent that great in overall dps. I can go on to mention the past fights in TOC/etc that also were great for SS. But staying focused on current content and future content.

If you want to put it on a CD fine. 3s sounds great. OR lose the cd and only allow one stack of one spell overwritten by the next thing you steal. Anything along these lines I'm ok with. But as a raider this is irritating to know I'm basically being punished for the whining of the pvp community. BLizz has said it does not want to make one spell act differently between PVE and PVP.

I ask why not? PVE and PVP are two diff games in one. From specs to spell choices to gear to the entire strategy of how you play this game. Make SS a 6s CD in PVP play. But only steal one buff overwriting all others in PVE w/o a cd at all. Why am I the raider, being punished for the PVP community I have zero interest in ever truly participating in? I'm tired of being penalized because a totally different side to this game I do not even play, do not even like or enjoy, and which any achievement in PVP play does not usually have any bearing on PVE progression impacts my true love of raiding killing Edragons.


So those are my ramblings. Tear them apart all you like.


Nasia

GM Free At Last
Eldre'Thalas
US

[velias1234]

Not only that, its a big nerf to fire and arcane mages in pvp as well. Both of those specs are complete garbage in arena, and yet this nerf affects them.

They're nerfing stuff that probably needs change in completely retarded ways. Hey lets nerf deep ring but leave death grip HC for dk's, death coil fear for locks, and howl of terror. Oh god aoe CC for 8 seconds. The real issue here is that every interrupt is no GCD, has a school lockout, and you can't hardcast polys very often since every 3s comp will tunnel the mage. So deep ring is kinda dumb but its the product of interrupts being completely retarded in pvp (oh hey cast against RLS lols)

a better change would be deep putting ring on a 5s cd. And substantially increasing the mana cost of spellsteal. Or changing the unlimited mana of mage armor, while increasing the crap mana of molten + frost (excluding glyph). Meh whatever, blizz are idiots. Gotta buff those F DKS

[Dacomp89]

Because Blizzard designed the game to have both PVE and PVP components? Just because you don't care about one half doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The issue with spellsteal isn't that you get a short buff, it's that you take a buff from the enemy. Currently the only fight where this nerf will have consequences is on ODS. The nerf is coming with Firelands, and it's quite possible none of those fights will have a stacking damage increasing debuff you can steal. I just don't see why you're complaining so much when the only fight where it currently even matters is ODS.

[velias1234]

Because Blizzard designed the game to have both PVE and PVP components? Just because you don't care about one half doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The issue with spellsteal isn't that you get a short buff, it's that you take a buff from the enemy. Currently the only fight where this nerf will have consequences is on ODS. The nerf is coming with Firelands, and it's quite possible none of those fights will have a stacking damage increasing debuff you can steal. I just don't see why you're complaining so much when the only fight where it currently even matters is ODS.

Its a completely retarded change for pvp. It hurts both fire and arcane which are terrible specs in arena. There are more elegant changes that would be better, and they completely ignored rshams being op in pvp, fdk's having too much control and being unpeelable unless ur running RLS, and LSD v2 is still completely over the top.

Blizzard basically is trying to balance stuff that needs to be balanced in completely idiotic ways. SWTOR can't come out soon enough.

[Resentful]

I wish there was a

PVP side to your abilities that does limited damage to players; an example would be CS

I'll dream <3; Sorry mages you got caught in a crossfirez

[cata]

I wish there was a

PVP side to your abilities that does limited damage to players; an example would be CS

I'll dream <3; Sorry mages you got caught in a crossfirez

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't that what resilience is for?

[Koridian]

The bottom line is - Blizzard needs to discover a way of separating PVP and PVE talents. Separate gear is used for both. Try going into a lvl 85 RBG (the equivalent of raids) with a mix of PVE blues and purples. Trust me - not much fun. Try going into in a lvl 85 raid with a mix of blues and purple PVP gear. If you're lucky you'll be in the middle of the dmg charts. If you're a healer, you don't stand a chance. Why not do something to separate the talent trees? Makes no sense. This is something that "desperately" needs to be done.

[Imnick]

This only hurts ODS and your argument is silly anyway
You should be telling Blizzard to buff mages so they are competitive outside of gimmick fights as well if that was true, not complaining when they remove the gimmick

You never need to spellsteal more than every 6 seconds in PvE
You don't even need to on ODS unless you are padding meters
This is not by any means a PvE nerf

[Deleted]

Agree with OP - PvP has gutted most classes in PvE, or in some way made them less fun to play since the cool spells/abillities are OP in PvP and therefor get nerfed or reworked.......

[Resentful]

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't that what resilience is for?

Correct me if I'm wrong; but It still crossfire's pvE equally an example would be the recent nerfs to Death knight's due to pvp

Or my mutilate was 50% increased damage down to 20% -.-
My point is simple

Separate them like they did with CS

[BatteredRose]

I ask why not? PVE and PVP are two diff games in one. From specs to spell choices to gear to the entire strategy of how you play this game. Make SS a 6s CD in PVP play. But only steal one buff overwriting all others in PVE w/o a cd at all.

Thank you! I've rambled about this randomly before. I'm not sure how hard it would be to make all spells work a bit differently between PvE and PvP, that way neither would impact each other in the least bit. It doesn't seem like it would be terribly complicated, as some already do, but I don't know.

[Imnick]

Implementing two versions of Spellsteal would take time, introduce bugs to fix and isn't necessary.
There are no fights in current content where you need to spellsteal more than once every six seconds. The only think that comes close is Omnitron, and that's not necessary to win the fight. It's an optional extra counted as "clever use of game mechanics" to boost your DPS, it is not by any means needed to kill the boss.
After implementing this change, Blizzard are also not going to put any stacking buffs in PvE that need stealing either, because they're not that stupid.

You are all shouting that the sky is falling, it's just a plastic bag someone dropped out the window from the room above yours.

[Resentful]

Thank you! I've rambled about this randomly before. I'm not sure how hard it would be to make all spells work a bit differently between PvE and PvP, that way neither would impact each other in the least bit. It doesn't seem like it would be terribly complicated, as some already do, but I don't know.

They did it with one ability <.< I don't see why is it hard to do it with others but I'm not a designer so..

meh <<

[Shawaam]

The problem is that frost got a gazillion of freezes and that they benefit from them all so insanely much. And their idea to solve it is to nerf mages overall?

[glowzone]

Don't pretend like it doesn't happen the other way around.
Allot of pvp stuff goes down the drain for pve reasons aswell.

Also, pvpers don't get a fancy raid enviremont every so many patches, we get 1/2 bg's at most every expansion.
We get classbalance instead, but pvers get that aswell.

I'm totally fine with that, btw.

[Nasia311]

This only hurts ODS and your argument is silly anyway
You should be telling Blizzard to buff mages so they are competitive outside of gimmick fights as well if that was true, not complaining when they remove the gimmick

The Issue I see from the PVE viewpoint is this. If you want SS to be nerfed, increase the overall Mage Pve dmg output. I know folks will shout and cry and say " look at stateofdps currently, Mages are owning!!". It's smoke and mirrors folks. Mages currently top charts in mostly gimmick fights. Simple as that.

Would be awesome if you read the entire post. I am arguing your exact quote about Mage dmg overall on non-gimmick /aoe fights. Also I am not opposed to a SS nerf in general but it sure seems PVE is taking a bat to the head to appease a minor vocal majority. I'm not Pro let mage be OP, I'm just a bit tired of changes that don't seem to really achieve what they are meant for, or in nerf 3 specs when only one is truly needed.

On a side note I have forgotten what it's like to have 3 viable raid specs. Rogues/hunter/pally's/priest how is it? what is it like? oh shams you have 3 to. Locks your in. See a pattern? You make one general nerf like this, it affects all three specs we have and we only basically have 1 spec raid viable with a 2nd on like 4 fights. Fun being mathematically limited to the options of a spec to play in a raid evironment. If you know DPS is my goal.

[r3nd]

It's not just mages.

[Engaged]

IDC about PVE so why do they nerf PVP to balance PVE... agrueing over this topic is stupid..., this will be locked within hours...

[Glnger]

warlock here, just being envious of a 6second cd on a purge ability

[Herecius]

Basically because its easier to balance a raid boss against our combined capabilities than it is to balance all our classes against all of the other classes at once.