The Effects of the Dungeon Journal

[Viceversa]

On the US PTR forums a discussion on the Dungeon Journal has been going on. If you could weigh in on what you think about it and how it effects raiding at all levels, it would be very helpful.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2522164614

Moderator Edit:
Tone down on the flame and personal attacks. If you can't discuss this topic without resorting to calling each other "scrubs" and whatnot, it will get locked.

[Hermanni]

There's a joint thread on EU PTR forums aswell: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8162148?page=1

Edit: The original thread was deleted, possibly because of the excess /signed spam and trolling. New thread is in http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2098122483 and we will hopefully have the quality posts from original thread recovered before long. If you don't fully understand that this is not an uprising against Dungeon Journal in general, but simply the negative effects it has in top-tier raiding in it's current implementation, please don't post in said thread or spam it like the first thread.

[Ryme]

The difference in opinion and post quality on the US forums to the EU forums is staggering.

[MAGAmobile]

If they seriously put this much detail into describing every single encounter, what is the point of even raiding high end anymore? I was considering coming back, but now I know how blizzard is planning the future of their game, and I'm not a fan of it at all.

[Confirm Deny]

Well, I don't know if it's just coincidence, but going off of the first three pages it's almost completely 12/12H guilds (Lots of Apex, few Paragon and Ensidia, etc.)
Must be nice to have those guys that active on the forums, for sure. Unless, of course, they were just (likely) more inclined than usual to state their opinion (obviously)

On-topic: I was shocked that they actually put as much as they did into the journal. I commend Blizzard for all of the hard work, but that sort of information should not have been available; at least until AFTER an encounter has been attempted by your guild. (Tying in journal entries like they were reverse guild "achievements"? /shrug)

[Imnick]

If they seriously put this much detail into describing every single encounter, what is the point of even raiding high end anymore? I was considering coming back, but now I know how blizzard is planning the future of their game, and I'm not a fan of it at all.

Pretty much all high end raiders do this online anyway, this just moves it in game and isn't even as useful as online guides.

The only people this should be a problem for is the best of the best progression raiders, and even then I doubt it will effect them all that much.

[Ultralisk]

It doesn't tell you anything you couldn't figure out by reading tooltips or wiping a few times. All it does is take out the "we have nfi what will happen, let's pull and see" time.

[Xeraxis]

How it is:
Top guilds do the fights on PTR > Post their findings in a video or stream > raid leaders/members watch videos and apply it to their raids.
Spell data is data-mined > players head to MMO-C/Wowhead/Wowpedia for spell info > apply it to their raids

How it will be:
Top guilds do the fights on PTR > Post their findings in a video or stream > raid leaders/members watch videos and apply it to their raids.
Spell data/journal information is data-mined > players head to MMO-C/Wowhead/Wowpedia for spell info or check their journal > apply it to their raids

The biggest thing about the journal is it's completely optional. Don't want to spoil the fact that one of Rag's abilities will one shot your dumb ass for standing in the fire then don't use it. Bad raiders will still be bad for not using tools available to them. Good raiders will be in the same boat they are now riding on the coattails of the top end guild that did it first. The only people this change will effect will be the first people to see an encounter that chose not to look at data-mined information and that's only if they choose to use it.

[Chiasmus]

Well, I don't know if it's just coincidence, but going off of the first three pages it's almost completely 12/12H guilds (Lots of Apex, few Paragon and Ensidia, etc.)
Must be nice to have those guys that active on the forums, for sure. Unless, of course, they were just (likely) more inclined than usual to state their opinion (obviously)

On-topic: I was shocked that they actually put as much as they did into the journal. I commend Blizzard for all of the hard work, but that sort of information should not have been available; at least until AFTER an encounter has been attempted by your guild. (Tying in journal entries like they were reverse guild "achievements"? /shrug)

It's not a coincidence, we knew the thread was going to be made and a few of us had prepared responses for it.

[kortin]

It doesn't tell you anything you couldn't figure out by reading tooltips or wiping a few times. All it does is take out the "we have nfi what will happen, let's pull and see" time.

Indeed. It allows you to anticipate and be proactive instead of reactive. Its not like the guide is sitting there telling you "DO THIS AND THIS AND THIS AND THIS AND JUMP HERE AND MOVE THERE GO GO GO GO!!". All this information is spread out through the internet anyways. They are just pooling it all together and putting it in the game for easier access. Also, there is now no excuse to not know what a boss is going to do, and when its going to do it. Which means that you are getting kicked if you say "Oh, sorry I didn't know X would happen"...at least by me.

[Paulosio]

It only effects the 1st few people who try the encounter. After that everyone is getting the same info and more via various websites and boss timers.

[arden714]

Personally think the journal was a waste of time. Anyone who likes to raid is going to be reviewing videos of strats. The "bad" players still won't use the journal, and even if it was forced into their brains they'd still lack the ability to apply the information and make good use of it.

[kortin]

Personally think the journal was a waste of time. Anyone who likes to raid is going to be reviewing videos of strats. The "bad" players still won't use the journal, and even if it was forced into their brains they'd still lack the ability to apply the information and make good use of it.

Or you know, guilds could start using their heads and reading the journal, developing a strategy of their own, and applying it as the wish. Wait, what am I saying? People won't start actually thinking and using resources available to them through just a mouse click or a key press! That actually makes sense! I can't expect that of the poor other players who are obviously mentally challenged! I can generalize too

[Khallynos]

It only effects the 1st few people who try the encounter. After that everyone is getting the same info and more via various websites and boss timers.

You're missing the point. There's a lot of people who:

a) Can't be bothered to look up boss mechanics for heroics ("They're just heroics.").

b) Feel that using an outside source, in a way, is cheating. To these people, anything in-game should be beatable without any outside help.

Yeah, person a is an ass, but you know at least it'll make it a bit easier explaining a fight to someone whose never seen it. Person b may seem crazy to you, but when I first started playing WoW, this is what I thought. Everything my guild did was basically on instinct or advice from better guilds. I'm too lazy to figure out fights myself nowadays, but some people prefer it.

[Paulosio]

You're missing the point. There's a lot of people who:

a) Can't be bothered to look up boss mechanics for heroics ("They're just heroics.").

b) Feel that using an outside source, in a way, is cheating. To these people, anything in-game should be beatable without any outside help.

Yeah, person a is an ass, but you know at least it'll make it a bit easier explaining a fight to someone whose never seen it. Person b may seem crazy to you, but when I first started playing WoW, this is what I thought. Everything my guild did was basically on instinct or advice from better guilds. I'm too lazy to figure out fights myself nowadays, but some people prefer it.

The people who don't want to use it because they don't like to use outside advice don't have to use it. The people who do want advice can get it in game rather than using 3rd party sources.... Win Win.

[ComputerNerd]

The arguement seems to be about the puzzle solving, the figuring out of the encounter.
While I appreciate the insight that can offer into an encounter, they do all that on the PTR so they don't need to where it really matters, on the live realms when aiming for their world/server firsts.
All the information that the dungeon journal provides, and considerably more will be out there before it hits live so I see no real issue with it being accessible in advance on the PTR.

[Ottius]

Useless threads are useless. There's nothing even to talk about. Nothing will change, except the fact that you don't have to alt-tab to wowhead or mmo-champion anymore to check what a certain spell does. It's all already in the game in form of tooltips anyway. Now you don't have to read them in the middle of a fight anymore.

[tusker]

Useless threads are useless. There's nothing even to talk about. Nothing will change, except the fact that you don't have to alt-tab to wowhead or mmo-champion anymore to check what a certain spell does. It's all already in the game in form of tooltips anyway. Now you don't have to read them in the middle of a fight anymore.

^ Basically read what this guy said.

End. of. Story.

[Deleted]

This won't affect 90% of the raiding community in the slightest and even the high-end raiders normally figure out that stuff fairly quickly, especially if you consider how long PTR raiding has been around for.

Raiding is all about execution and the DJ doesn't help with that.

It will allow Ensidia and Paragon etc. to theorycraft a lot of the encounters beforehand though, which should significantly reduce their time needed for progressing. Not sureif they'll like that.



Edit: I just read the two different EU and US threads and the different forms of feedback are staggering. Seeing such a direct comparison between the two communities makes you wonder how WoW would have turned out, had it been based on EU community feedback, rather than US.

[Axethor]

Reading the EU forum post makes me wish I could post there. I feel I would be taken more seriously and with more thought on that forum.

Anyways, Blizz did screw up with this. They should make it unavailable till the server first and/or two weeks after the world first. Then heroic modes go the same way.