Shred Mangle and Ravage buff where do they end?

[Elunedra]

so if you look at a few other classes:
[ret pally]
Crusader Strike - 135% weapon damage

[Rogue]
Backstab - 200% weapon damage

[Druid]
Shred - 520% weapon damage
Ravage - 975% weapon damage
Mangle - 530% weapon damage

i remeber back in WotLk we kitty's where decent whit a shred hitting for 230% weapon damage. but now we are in cata. our shreds / mangle damage has been buffed 3 times and still we scale less then other classes ?

so i wonder what went wrong, what happent to our class?
at first i would think about the removal of feral AP but that turned into a direct dps boost rather then AP so it should not have no real impact on dps.
but if its not that then what did happent to our dps ? was it the removal of ArP the one stat that did scale massively ?

either way if this contines shred will be hitting for 1000% weapon damage at the time we get to deathwing..

[Musra]

Yeah, it does go kinda out of hand instead of just raising our auto attacks hit and remove savage roar. Sounds more simple to me.
What happened really is that we dont scale with gear without ArP, we practically dont do anymore DPS when we got good gear then we did when we had bad gear.

[Deleted]

Mastery 'increases bleed damage'
Shred 'effects that increase bleed damage'

To be honest that is also a valid area to fix feral damage: Let mastery effect shreds, ofc the base bleed damage needs to be buffed/mastery value reduced otherwise shred will be doing massive damage. The tooltips would suggest this should be possible but its not.

To be honest blizzard need to look at how they have been changing it, then have a look at how it will change in future teirs (im assuming they have a rough idea of how the stats will increase. i wouldnt be suprised if both components need a tweak to fix the scaling, since they change the weapon damage several times and needed to refix it...change the AP co-efficient on the bonus damage?

[utopianh]

Mastery does not -currently- need a buff, our white damage does however and nearly every secondary stat associated with it.

The design problem of ferals is our white paw damage calculation, it's a single wielding calc, so AP conversion is quite low. The reason right now our specials are so absurdly high on weapon damage is our weapon speed is fast, but only single wielding so must be calculated from a very small damage range, and we mechanically don't have anything spreading out our non-ability damage (and the only reason our burst isn't outright absurd is bleeds make up such a large portion of our damage). Most of the other classes in the low-white damage situation have something else mechanically preventing them from using all their burst in pvp (slam for arms warriors, plus their mastery bonus white swings, and ret paladin's seal damage).

Really, the most simple change mechanically is a savage roar buff and just keep the high % weapon modifiers. If they were going to redesign for an expansion the better solution would be to simply redesign how paw damage is calculated.

[Astronomy]

i remeber back in WotLk we kitty's where decent whit a shred hitting for 230% weapon damage. but now we are in cata. our shreds / mangle damage has been buffed 3 times and still we scale less then other classes ?

Kitty dps scaling was always problematic.

In TBC it was the same. We were doing pretty good damage in Karazhan level of gear (pre-raid gear/first tier), but when you hit higher level of gear your dps falls behind other classes. Competitve raid dps wasn't for ferals then, so we didn't get any buffs or anything. Cat form was to PvP or for off-tank to go dps instead of running around in bear form.

In WotLK, as someone mentioned before, ArPen made us scale well on higher level of gear. Good times.

Now in Caa, we are not scaling again. But the differense than TBC is, Blizzard wants us to be competitive in raid dps. So they keep buffing our damage every now and then.

There are surely solutions (changing SR, buffing white damage etc.), but my guess is, Blizzard wants us to be more DPE class than rogues. Otherwise its not a hard thing to buff SR and/or white damage and fix our problem.

[Dyzon]

Kitty dps scaling was always problematic.

Yup this 100 times over. The issues of scaling in TBC were just horrid. By T5 you were worthless unless you were resto. Even Bears had issues but that's another discussion.

I'm pretty sure they need to throw the feral calcs out the window and try again.

[cise4832]

Well...
If they increase the damage of bleed, pvpers complain about the uncontrollable damage.
Increase the damage of direct damage, they complain about the burst damage.
And blizzard don't want to increase auto-attack damage.

Haste and weapon damage doesn't affect bleed damage and finishers.
Mastery doesn't affect direct damage and white damage.
Hit/expertise mathematically does nearly nothing for everything but white damage.

I am not saying other DPS classes do not have similar issues..but hey, you get the idea. =/

[supergaga]

Well...
If they increase the damage of bleed, pvpers complain about the uncontrollable damage.
Increase the damage of direct damage, they complain about the burst damage.
And blizzard don't want to increase auto-attack damage.

Haste and weapon damage doesn't affect bleed damage and finishers.
Mastery doesn't affect direct damage and white damage.
Hit/expertise mathematically does nearly nothing for everything but white damage.

I am not saying other DPS classes do not have similar issues..but hey, you get the idea. =/

Actually, Weapon damage is by far the best stat for ferals (ahead of agi), the very reason why being that it does count in the bleeds' damage calculation.

This reason makes the 359 strength mace (akirus something) better than a 346 agility weapon.

To stay on topic, scaling IS the problem. ArPen used to fix it in some way. The buff to FB is needed, shredding at 5 CPs feels bad.

Bring back the old dilemma : can I FB this round of SR/Rip and still maintain them after my energy has been drained ?

[utopianh]

Actually, Weapon damage is by far the best stat for ferals (ahead of agi), the very reason why being that it does count in the bleeds' damage calculation.

This reason makes the 359 strength mace (akirus something) better than a 346 agility weapon.

To stay on topic, scaling IS the problem. ArPen used to fix it in some way. The buff to FB is needed, shredding at 5 CPs feels bad.

Bring back the old dilemma : can I FB this round of SR/Rip and still maintain them after my energy has been drained ?

Weapon damage does NOT effect bleeds or ferocious bite damage. It effects white, ravage, shred, mangle and fury swipes. However the reason it effects our abilities SO much is the multiplier on our abilities, since it's multiplying the weapon dps directly and adding it on to the attack damage, and not even using the paw damage calc, unlike AP/agi. It's the same reason Unheeded Warning is so broken for us.

Mastery was made to boost bleeds since they no longer would scale with weapon damage, unlike WotLK where they did due to the FAP stat. Now that it doesn't, there needs to be some other multiplier to keep bleeds scaling beyond crit and AP.

[Blackfoo]

Weapon damage does NOT effect bleeds or ferocious bite damage. It effects white, ravage, shred, mangle and fury swipes. However the reason it effects our abilities SO much is the multiplier on our abilities, since it's multiplying the weapon dps directly and adding it on to the attack damage, and not even using the paw damage calc, unlike AP/agi. It's the same reason Unheeded Warning is so broken for us.

Mastery was made to boost bleeds since they no longer would scale with weapon damage, unlike WotLK where they did due to the FAP stat. Now that it doesn't, there needs to be some other multiplier to keep bleeds scaling beyond crit and AP.

they boost the damage due the fact that feral scale with gear is almost non existant and there gonna have to keep doing this every tier from now on until they change the base of a weapon but then they would have the change hunter(dk also for those tanks that use polearms)

[Elunedra]

well about TBC i was a mainly a bear but on a lot of fight i didnt have to tank (or we had 2 other tanks) so i did spend about 50% of my time as kitty dps.
as for our rotation it indeed does not feel right to shred at 5 CP, and honeslty they need to buff hit / exp as that be nice.

weapon dps will go up and up if they keep buffing the %of weapon damage our specails do. but alll we want is a weapon and then we gain 2K dps and dont have to care about other items :/

[utopianh]

they boost the damage due the fact that feral scale with gear is almost non existant and there gonna have to keep doing this every tier from now on until they change the base of a weapon but then they would have the change hunter(dk also for those tanks that use polearms)

If you read my first post I spoke on this in greater detail than your response.

The issue is AP and other stats > white damage, it's entirely centric around our poor white damage scaling. If by % our white damage kept up with other abilities instead of shrinking with tier relative to others there wouldn't be this dramatic scaling issue. As a flat AP > damage calculation ferals are actually fairly high due to the bleed as a %, and bleeds are scaling just fine, as are our specials. This change is making up for an overall drop in AP from the str change and allowing for a slight bit more scaling through specials, but it still doesn't address the poor white damage scaling problem.

[Elunedra]

So i was thiking whit more damage put on our specails..
More of our overall damage will be from specail rather then bleed damage
So a bigger portion of our damage scales whit hit / exp right ?

Since hit / exp are already close to that of crit / haste will it finely put those stats on an equal level ?

[Playintrafic]

Imo... they just need to bring back FAP and have kitty damage scale from AP...

[Elunedra]

Imo... they just need to bring back FAP and have kitty damage scale from AP...

And make it show on weapons for everyone so we get prio on those items :P

[utopianh]

Imo... they just need to bring back FAP and have kitty damage scale from AP...

It was a horrid mechanic that made us even more dependant on a weapon than we are now, no thank you.

[Cheezee]

It was a horrid mechanic that made us even more dependant on a weapon than we are now, no thank you.

FAP was just weapon dps in a different form. We're no less dependent on weapons now than we've been in the past.

[dancm]

so if you look at a few other classes:
i remeber back in WotLk we kitty's where decent whit a shred hitting for 230% weapon damage. but now we are in cata. our shreds / mangle damage has been buffed 3 times and still we scale less then other classes ?

Back in WotLK we also had SR affecting all of our damage. So actually shred had 305.9% weapon damage back than (including the glyph). And without ArPen our scaling wasn't good either...

[Rioo]

Haste-affected bleeds, gief. Haste is the worst stat for a PvP feral so they'd had to sacrifice a lot of mastery in order to get some reasonable level of it. Also, since attack speed isn't that sought after in PvP since it's all about the yellow damage, the stat would still be pretty crappy compared to mastery if balanced right.

That or SR going back to increasing all damage done. It's just more fun buffs and will help with scaling at the same time.

[snige]

but remember guys, DONT say anything about swipe (cat) we fucking love it now, right?

Indeed, it seems a little pathetic that blizz cant just make a permanent fix to our scaling, insted of the constant need to buff our damage.