Shadowpriest Suggestions

[Hesp]

Hello. I posted this on the official forums as well but I figured I would post it here to raise interest and create a hub for discussion on the issue. This post is designed to offer an alternative approach to the current shadowpriest changes on the ptr. My suggestions here are intended to preemptively combat future problems I see the changes causing as well as offer some intelligent insight on class mechanics from a veteran priest.

First off, I would like to start by saying that multi-dotting 100% needed to be nerfed, no doubt about it. Disagreeing with this is simply foolish as priest dps is absolutely unbeatable on any sustained multiple target fight. Considering multiple sustained targets seems to be becoming the norm of most fights these days, things needed to change for the sake of balance. We've had our time in the sun, but a nerf was needed for the sake of balance. That said, I don't believe the changes presented on the ptr are the correct way to go about reducing multi-dot damage and will only cause problems in the long term.


Here's a list off problems which I foresee being caused by the damage changes:

- Buffing mind blast while also introducing a powerful t12 4 piece bonus will make mind blast a very powerful ability. Once we lose the t12 4 set in a future raid tier the class will have to be rebalanced and go through another round of buffs/nerfs.

- Reduced movement dps. Devouring plague is the shadowpriest staple of dps on the move. Currently the improved devouring plague ability hits harder than an equal amount of time spent using mind flay, so our movement dps has been rather good but at the expense of a good bit of mana. Nerfing devouring plague in a tier in which there will be a good amount of movement (I assume) and mind blast is going to be on a 3.5 second cd (preventing sustained movement) will lead to significantly movement ability and movement dps causing priests to lose their high mobility.

- PvP burstiness. Although few decent arena teams allow a shadowpriest to chain multiple mind spikes and mind blasts together, they are very powerful when allowed to do so. In battlegrounds the problem of being trained isn't as prevalent so we are able to burst down opponents without much fear. Buffing mind blast and swd can lead to excessive burst which has historically been nerfed in the past. I would like to avoid a change which could lead to a future nerf as well as be avoided completely through clever design.

- Poor sustained PvP dps. On the flip side, our sustained and moving pvp dps will suffer
tremendously. I can't remember the last arena team that let me chain cast mind spikes and mind blasts on them. Typically I find myself targeted and trained for most of the match; dots are my largest damage source. Nerfing dots while buffing our other abilities will lead to lower arena dps since there isn't much we can do other than run with dots ticking seeing as mind flay screams "interrupt me".

- Shadow Word: Death backlash. There aren't too many fights I find myself able to cast swd on with reckless abandon these days, let alone use the double tap. On fights like Magmaw, Omnotron, Maloriak, and Halfus, I find myself hesitatingly using swd when
I have the buffs gained through those fights during the execute range for fear of killing myself. The fights listed are only those in which buffs presented make swd too dangerous to cast, there are even more which prevent me from casting swd due to there being too much raid damage going out to be worth straining healers even more. All these problems are in the current swd form, so it will only become more dangerous as it gets buffed and gear gets better. Perhaps this is a problem better addressed through reduced swd backlash, but it remains a concern with the changes posed.

These are the things which I immediately recognize as potential problems down the road and I would hope to avoid them rather than have to deal with them and be adjusted with that awkward series of rapid buffs and nerfs. So, we come to the point where a new idea needs to be presented on how to address the issue of multi-dotting dps being too high as well as avoid single target and other problems occurring as a result.

I've thought about it for a while and the best idea I've come up with is to keep the nerf to vampiric touc and shadow word: pain at 12% (or whatever percent is deemed appropriate), but reverse the buffs to mind flay, mind blast, and swd and reverse the nerf to dp (considering it is a single target dot anyways so it doesn't really make sense to be nerfed). So, shadowpriests would remain the same as they are currently, except take a 12% hit to both vt and swp (our multiple target dots). This would achieve Blizzard's goal of nerfing our multi dot capabilities while maintaining the damage of our other abilities to prevent things from changing too much. To compensate for the nerfs to vt and swp, make dp apply a debuff which increases damage taken by the shadowpriest's dots by 12% (or whatever value is decided upon). So, our main target which has dp ticking on it will take the normal (read: current) amount of damage from the dots which we apply to multiple targets. Thus our secondary targets will still take the 12% reduced dot damage. The debuff could be either attached to dp innately or gained through the improved dp talent to prevent heal specs from capitalizing on the improved dot damage. Point is, there are multiple ways to approach the dot debuff applied by dp (perhaps even a new dot damage-taken debuff for all classes to take advantage of? Shadowpriests could stand to bring a little more raid utility).

By attaching the debuff to dp we ensure that only the primary target will take increased damage so our single target dps will remain constant, but our multi-dotting will be sufficiently nerfed. This will keep priest single target dps *exactly* where it is currently while also accomplishing the nerf to multi-dotting. It would also allow us to switch burn targets relatively quickly by applying devouring plague to increase damage on a secondary target that is dotted. The beauty of a change like this is that it would maintain almost every aspect of shadowpriests in its current form, provided that Blizzard thinks shadowpriests are fine other than multi-dotting, while also adding an interesting dot priority component.

This is only my interpretation of how to change priests for the better and I'm sure there are other ways to tackle the issue. If you have a decent idea on how to intelligently change the class, feel free to post. Please try to keep the posts constructive so Blizzard will hopefully take this thread seriously.

[This name sucks]

Damn you really put some effort into this. I have to admit I cringed a bit when I read the changes to the spriest abilities. I think you could elaborate on your 2nd last paragraph though.

[Zuziza]

Hello. I posted this on the official forums as well but I figured I would post it here to raise interest and create a hub for discussion on the issue. This post is designed to offer an alternative approach to the current shadowpriest changes on the ptr. My suggestions here are intended to preemptively combat future problems I see the changes causing as well as offer some intelligent insight on class mechanics from a veteran priest.

First off, I would like to start by saying that multi-dotting 100% needed to be nerfed, no doubt about it. Disagreeing with this is simply foolish as priest dps is absolutely unbeatable on any sustained multiple target fight. Considering multiple sustained targets seems to be becoming the norm of most fights these days, things needed to change for the sake of balance. We've had our time in the sun, but a nerf was needed for the sake of balance. That said, I don't believe the changes presented on the ptr are the correct way to go about reducing multi-dot damage and will only cause problems in the long term.

They are already reducing the damage of SW: P, DP, and VT by 12% on the PTR, and that change is likely to stay. This is meant to bring our multi-dotting in line with other DoT classes.

Here's a list off problems which I foresee being caused by the damage changes:

- Buffing mind blast while also introducing a powerful t12 4 piece bonus will make mind blast a very powerful ability. Once we lose the t12 4 set in a future raid tier the class will have to be rebalanced and go through another round of buffs/nerfs.

A 12% buff still won't bring it back up to the insane damage it was doing before the last nerf. The 4 piece bonus is less about making us more bursty and more about making ES uptime less of a restriction. Balancing ES uptime with MB casts and fewer MF (meaning also fewer chances to proc an orb) makes shadow very interesting with t12 4 set, but it's not going to be that overpowered with that mechanic alone. None of our spells are >30% of our total damage currently, and it's unlikely the buff and the t12 4pc bonus will bump up MB to our main damage ability. We are still going to be a DoT class, but the set will just give us more flexibility (and also responsibility to watch timers). It's difficult to speculate whether or not we're going to get a nerf/buff cycle just because of that bonus set; we've been getting buffed/nerfed primarily because of PVP balance rather than PVE class balance, and I'm a bit more convinced that trend is going to continue even with the multi-dotting nerf.

- Reduced movement dps. Devouring plague is the shadowpriest staple of dps on the move. Currently the improved devouring plague ability hits harder than an equal amount of time spent using mind flay, so our movement dps has been rather good but at the expense of a good bit of mana. Nerfing devouring plague in a tier in which there will be a good amount of movement (I assume) and mind blast is going to be on a 3.5 second cd (preventing sustained movement) will lead to significantly movement ability and movement dps causing priests to lose their high mobility.

Napkin math: 12% reduced damage on our absurd 30k Imp DP crits still doesn't bring it below our utterly fail non crit MB's with 3 orbs at 24k (though they may be closer with the 12% MB buff too), so I don't think we're yet at a moving DPS nerf. As for the future, Blizz seems to be taking the route that mobility is a big thing in the raids, and trying to make raiders movement capable seems to follow. Mages will be able to channel AB while moving with their 4 set, boomkins spam their instants while moving, hunters now can autoshot on the move (or even do casted shots on the move in a different aspect), and on and on. Unless they totally reverse that trend, it's going to be very strange for them to pick a DoT caster class (spriests) alone and nerf their movement. That'd make more sense for direct damage dealing casters (arcane mages, ele shamans, etc.) that have high burst capabilities rather than DPS like us that have lots of tiny numbers that add up; nerfing all those tiny numbers to the ground for us will royally mess us up, and I'm getting the feeling they really get that this time around. That is just my opinion though, I could totally be wrong and QQ in a corner later.

- PvP burstiness. Although few decent arena teams allow a shadowpriest to chain multiple mind spikes and mind blasts together, they are very powerful when allowed to do so. In battlegrounds the problem of being trained isn't as prevalent so we are able to burst down opponents without much fear. Buffing mind blast and swd can lead to excessive burst which has historically been nerfed in the past. I would like to avoid a change which could lead to a future nerf as well as be avoided completely through clever design.

I think this ones a legitimate concern; Blizz is having a hard time with us in PVP. However, the 12% buff isn't all that much compared to the crazy nerf we had before (what was it; 30%? more?) when we could two shot people in full resil gear. I'm really torn about how Blizz is going to manage to balance us in PVP (will we be totally bursty with MS/MB/SW: D spam, or debuff and fear focused instead?) without royally screwing us over with the balance we're finally getting in PVE. Taking away our burst doesn't bug us much in PVE if our DoTs remain reasonably strong, but then we're slow damage and easy to replace in PVP. Taking the strength out of our DoTs and buffing our burst abilities a bit fundamentally undermines our status as a DoT DPS class, but then we're awesome nukes to bring along in PVP. Getting a balance between the two is difficult, and I don't know if Blizz has really found the sweet spot yet. We'll see in 4.2.

- Poor sustained PvP dps. On the flip side, our sustained and moving pvp dps will suffer
tremendously. I can't remember the last arena team that let me chain cast mind spikes and mind blasts on them. Typically I find myself targeted and trained for most of the match; dots are my largest damage source. Nerfing dots while buffing our other abilities will lead to lower arena dps since there isn't much we can do other than run with dots ticking seeing as mind flay screams "interrupt me".

This is what I mean by being slow and replaceable. =( My guildees won't arena with me unless I respec my shadow PVP for disc. I don't know if the 12% buff to burst spells will make us better nukes to take along in 4.2, but it's not tremendously intimidating. Even if it IS going to be a great buff and we're scary mofos in PVP again, there'll be the same QQ as the last patch and we'll get it nerfed to the ground all over again because we can take people out with the MB healing debuff and nuke spam.

- Shadow Word: Death backlash. There aren't too many fights I find myself able to cast swd on with reckless abandon these days, let alone use the double tap. On fights like Magmaw, Omnotron, Maloriak, and Halfus, I find myself hesitatingly using swd when
I have the buffs gained through those fights during the execute range for fear of killing myself. The fights listed are only those in which buffs presented make swd too dangerous to cast, there are even more which prevent me from casting swd due to there being too much raid damage going out to be worth straining healers even more. All these problems are in the current swd form, so it will only become more dangerous as it gets buffed and gear gets better. Perhaps this is a problem better addressed through reduced swd backlash, but it remains a concern with the changes posed.

It's honestly not been a big concern for me (except Chimaeron). I've gotten used to the timing enough that I know when to just not use it because we're about to take a big hit (there's always like a 2 second delay on the backlash), so I've always done the double tap. If it's a bit intimidating even if you think you have the health to handle it, spend a GCD to cast a bubble on yourself. They're about 20k now, so it takes a lot of the edge from the backlash off, and the SW: D dps more than makes up for spending the GCD on the bubble. It's nice if you've got a pro disc priest already bubbling you for that (sweet 30k+ bubbles), but it's more difficult for them to bubble spam now, so that's something you would negotiate with them if they can spare the GCD and mana for it (as well as notice when a boss is <25%).

These are the things which I immediately recognize as potential problems down the road and I would hope to avoid them rather than have to deal with them and be adjusted with that awkward series of rapid buffs and nerfs. So, we come to the point where a new idea needs to be presented on how to address the issue of multi-dotting dps being too high as well as avoid single target and other problems occurring as a result.

I've thought about it for a while and the best idea I've come up with is to keep the nerf to vampiric touc and shadow word: pain at 12% (or whatever percent is deemed appropriate), but reverse the buffs to mind flay, mind blast, and swd and reverse the nerf to dp (considering it is a single target dot anyways so it doesn't really make sense to be nerfed). So, shadowpriests would remain the same as they are currently, except take a 12% hit to both vt and swp (our multiple target dots). This would achieve Blizzard's goal of nerfing our multi dot capabilities while maintaining the damage of our other abilities to prevent things from changing too much. To compensate for the nerfs to vt and swp, make dp apply a debuff which increases damage taken by the shadowpriest's dots by 12% (or whatever value is decided upon). So, our main target which has dp ticking on it will take the normal (read: current) amount of damage from the dots which we apply to multiple targets. Thus our secondary targets will still take the 12% reduced dot damage. The debuff could be either attached to dp innately or gained through the improved dp talent to prevent heal specs from capitalizing on the improved dot damage. Point is, there are multiple ways to approach the dot debuff applied by dp (perhaps even a new dot damage-taken debuff for all classes to take advantage of? Shadowpriests could stand to bring a little more raid utility).

By attaching the debuff to dp we ensure that only the primary target will take increased damage so our single target dps will remain constant, but our multi-dotting will be sufficiently nerfed. This will keep priest single target dps *exactly* where it is currently while also accomplishing the nerf to multi-dotting. It would also allow us to switch burn targets relatively quickly by applying devouring plague to increase damage on a secondary target that is dotted. The beauty of a change like this is that it would maintain almost every aspect of shadowpriests in its current form, provided that Blizzard thinks shadowpriests are fine other than multi-dotting, while also adding an interesting dot priority component.

This is only my interpretation of how to change priests for the better and I'm sure there are other ways to tackle the issue. If you have a decent idea on how to intelligently change the class, feel free to post. Please try to keep the posts constructive so Blizzard will hopefully take this thread seriously.

I think the debuff idea you mentioned sounds interesting, but I don't know if Blizz is willing to add yet ANOTHER spriest debuff to the mix we already have. The timing would be an issue (will it be shorter than DP duration? will we change our refresh priorities over it?) depending on how the debuff is applied, and keep in mind there are already debuffs/buffs in game that increase damage taken or damage dealt, so Blizz may not even allow it to stack if they do add it.

I do take issue with having a consistent 12% nerf without any compensation besides that hypothetical debuff; buffing our burst at least a little helps counter it in PVP, or else the issues you brought up before won't even matter because no one will consider us a threat if we can't burst or debuff people to death. I like the MB, MS, and SW: D buff a bit just because MB and MS are pretty lame in PVE. MS is especially annoying due to the mana cost, and many times it doesn't make a difference whether I multidot or MS/MB spam as far as both DPS and mana go, so I just multidot for the practice at target switching. I only used MS/MB spam when I feel lazy, which is not what I want out of my spells. I should get more utility out of a spell than deciding to be an arcane mage for a random dungeon.

We also have to recognize that we're not the only class bouncing around with nerfs and buffs. Other casters (boomkins, mages, locks) are in the same boat, especially with mages and locks flipping between specs practically every patch, so it's not unique to spriests (though we totally have a nasty history of it from Wrath).

Overall, the announced buff/nerf combo we have in 4.2 hasn't rung any alarms for me. It nerfs our multitarget capabilities a bit, but the buffs to our burst (which are innately single target) and the recent buff to Mind Sear make me feel more confident that we still won't be reduced to bench warmers like we were in Wrath. We were (and still are before 4.2 at least) top caster DPS for Cata, especially for 2-3 target boss fights (all of BoT, Magmaw, Omno, Nef phase 1...). We may not be solid #1 spot after the changes we're getting and the buffs to other classes, but it's not like we're getting totally shafted. I do think we need something better for PVP, but I just can't think of any creative fixes to the issues they're having with balancing us. I guess I'm taking more of a "meh, it'll work out" stance, but I won't deny your points have some valid concerns in them if Blizz decides to screw with us again. All we can do is wait and see how it actually plays out with Firelands raids and next PVP tier; all the math on PTR is only speculation until it's actually implemented.

[Hesp]

They are already reducing the damage of SW: P, DP, and VT by 12% on the PTR, and that change is likely to stay. This is meant to bring our multi-dotting in line with other DoT classes.

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing against nerfing dots on multi target fights.

A 12% buff still won't bring it back up to the insane damage it was doing before the last nerf. The 4 piece bonus is less about making us more bursty and more about making ES uptime less of a restriction. Balancing ES uptime with MB casts and fewer MF (meaning also fewer chances to proc an orb) makes shadow very interesting with t12 4 set, but it's not going to be that overpowered with that mechanic alone. None of our spells are >30% of our total damage currently, and it's unlikely the buff and the t12 4pc bonus will bump up MB to our main damage ability. We are still going to be a DoT class, but the set will just give us more flexibility (and also responsibility to watch timers). It's difficult to speculate whether or not we're going to get a nerf/buff cycle just because of that bonus set; we've been getting buffed/nerfed primarily because of PVP balance rather than PVE class balance, and I'm a bit more convinced that trend is going to continue even with the multi-dotting nerf.

The issue here isn't the t12 4 set bonus being powerful (because it's not, estimates show it as a 3-4% increase), it's that Blizzard seems to want us to be very dependent on mb for damage which has never been a design intent in the past. My problem is that buffing mb sets us up for being weak at the start of the next tier once our casted mb's drop from losing the tier bonus. Since the bonuses will be multiplicative we will lose that extra coefficient once we drop our set bonus. In the long run we are just being set up for a buff in the future, which is something I would like to avoid when it's so plainly seen from this far out. Not to mention mb gibs are a strong complaint against priests in pvp and this 12% buff only exacerbates that problem. I think mb is fine where it is at and there's no reason to change it when the multi-dot issue can be solved with a little more tact.

Napkin math: 12% reduced damage on our absurd 30k Imp DP crits still doesn't bring it below our utterly fail non crit MB's with 3 orbs at 24k (though they may be closer with the 12% MB buff too), so I don't think we're yet at a moving DPS nerf. As for the future, Blizz seems to be taking the route that mobility is a big thing in the raids, and trying to make raiders movement capable seems to follow. Mages will be able to channel AB while moving with their 4 set, boomkins spam their instants while moving, hunters now can autoshot on the move (or even do casted shots on the move in a different aspect), and on and on. Unless they totally reverse that trend, it's going to be very strange for them to pick a DoT caster class (spriests) alone and nerf their movement. That'd make more sense for direct damage dealing casters (arcane mages, ele shamans, etc.) that have high burst capabilities rather than DPS like us that have lots of tiny numbers that add up; nerfing all those tiny numbers to the ground for us will royally mess us up, and I'm getting the feeling they really get that this time around. That is just my opinion though, I could totally be wrong and QQ in a corner later.

I feel like you've drawn numbers out of thin air here. A 30k imp dp is a pretty massive, whereas a 3 orb mb at 24k is extremely low. Besides, you can't really compare crits to non-crits like that. Under normal circumstances a 3 orb mb will always do more than an imp dp, you shouldn't use worst and best case scenarios to further your argument.

It does seem like they are adding mobility to classes in extreme ways lately though, so perhaps there's a larger plan for priest mobility than the clumsy "spam dp" that it is. However, without an indication of such a change I'm not likely to take a nerf to my primary movement ability sitting down. If they want to give us a new source of movement damage that would be fine, but as it stands our movement dps is taking a large hit. Once again though, the point is that all of these side effects of the ptr changes can be avoided while still accomplishing their goal. You can try to justify their changes, but they don't make much sense in light of the fact that there are better solution out there, and that is the point I am arguing here.

It's honestly not been a big concern for me (except Chimaeron). I've gotten used to the timing enough that I know when to just not use it because we're about to take a big hit (there's always like a 2 second delay on the backlash), so I've always done the double tap. If it's a bit intimidating even if you think you have the health to handle it, spend a GCD to cast a bubble on yourself. They're about 20k now, so it takes a lot of the edge from the backlash off, and the SW: D dps more than makes up for spending the GCD on the bubble. It's nice if you've got a pro disc priest already bubbling you for that (sweet 30k+ bubbles), but it's more difficult for them to bubble spam now, so that's something you would negotiate with them if they can spare the GCD and mana for it (as well as notice when a boss is <25%).

I'm sorry, but I'm not a big fan of the idea of having to spend a gcd to place a bubble on myself in order to cast an ability. Nor would I want to come into a raid telling healers that "Hey, I'm going to need my own healer for <25% when I hit myself twice in a row with 50k plus swd backlashes." There's something wrong with the ability when a crit on Halfus can easily mean my life. With as much raid damage as there is going out in many bosses during that final burn phase, it is absolutely irresponsible for me to expect healers to turn their attention from the tanks just to focus on the tremendous avoidable damage I'm taking. I would sacrifice swd strength if it meant not having to stress healers any further on hm's or have to gamble with my life when large buffs have gone out.

I think the debuff idea you mentioned sounds interesting, but I don't know if Blizz is willing to add yet ANOTHER spriest debuff to the mix we already have. The timing would be an issue (will it be shorter than DP duration? will we change our refresh priorities over it?) depending on how the debuff is applied, and keep in mind there are already debuffs/buffs in game that increase damage taken or damage dealt, so Blizz may not even allow it to stack if they do add it.

The boss debuff for the whole raid idea is more of a pipe dream than a legitimate request. It would be nice, but it would mean that every other dot user would have to be balanced around it. Just food for though, more or less. The simplest incarnation would just a debuff placed on the boss whenever imp dp hits that lasts for the duration of dp. It will be removed when dp wears off and applied right when imp dp hits. This way it can be rolled into the imp dp talent for a nice little package deal. Of course there would have to be intelligent coding used to make sure one couldn't exploit the talent to spam dp across multiple targets to gain the debuff on every target, but I would leave that to the programmers to figure out. The idea is there, and that's what I'm primarily focused on.

I do take issue with having a consistent 12% nerf without any compensation besides that hypothetical debuff; buffing our burst at least a little helps counter it in PVP, or else the issues you brought up before won't even matter because no one will consider us a threat if we can't burst or debuff people to death. I like the MB, MS, and SW: D buff a bit just because MB and MS are pretty lame in PVE. MS is especially annoying due to the mana cost, and many times it doesn't make a difference whether I multidot or MS/MB spam as far as both DPS and mana go, so I just multidot for the practice at target switching. I only used MS/MB spam when I feel lazy, which is not what I want out of my spells. I should get more utility out of a spell than deciding to be an arcane mage for a random dungeon.

Well the thing about my suggested change is that our current single target viability would remain unaltered, and we're not in too rough shape atm. Nerfing our dots would only hurt in pvp without a change such as this seeing as a mind spike rotation has limited use in any ranked pvp. I'm also not sure what mind blast you're using, but the thing hits like a truck. I'm surprised anyone would have a complaint with its current form. Increasing its damage would only lead to complaints by other classes. As for mind spike, it simply has a time and a place for proper use.

We also have to recognize that we're not the only class bouncing around with nerfs and buffs. Other casters (boomkins, mages, locks) are in the same boat, especially with mages and locks flipping between specs practically every patch, so it's not unique to spriests (though we totally have a nasty history of it from Wrath).

Frankly put, I don't care about them. Their own population will ensure that their opinions are heard, and I am here to do the same for priests. I am concerned with making sure my class is always heading in a proper direction. Multi-dotting needed to be nerfed, but not the way they are suggesting.

Overall, the announced buff/nerf combo we have in 4.2 hasn't rung any alarms for me. It nerfs our multitarget capabilities a bit, but the buffs to our burst (which are innately single target) and the recent buff to Mind Sear make me feel more confident that we still won't be reduced to bench warmers like we were in Wrath. We were (and still are before 4.2 at least) top caster DPS for Cata, especially for 2-3 target boss fights (all of BoT, Magmaw, Omno, Nef phase 1...). We may not be solid #1 spot after the changes we're getting and the buffs to other classes, but it's not like we're getting totally shafted. I do think we need something better for PVP, but I just can't think of any creative fixes to the issues they're having with balancing us. I guess I'm taking more of a "meh, it'll work out" stance, but I won't deny your points have some valid concerns in them if Blizz decides to screw with us again. All we can do is wait and see how it actually plays out with Firelands raids and next PVP tier; all the math on PTR is only speculation until it's actually implemented.

Once again my problem isn't that we are getting nerfed, it's the heavy-handed method in which we were nerfed which seems to be without much foresight on the repercussions. If Blizzard intends to make us a burst class, so be it, but I would like to see some indication that this is their design goal before I give up on maintaining the current shadowpriest playstyle. This is not a qq or complaint thread; this is a thread to draw more awareness to how their scheduled changes will influence shadowpriests and how to avoid some unnecessary consequences of such while also offering alternatives.

[Zuziza]

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing against nerfing dots on multi target fights.

I did misread that paragraph actually, totally thought your point was the nerf was unwarranted. Reread it and it makes way more sense now. My bad, I'll refine some of my points.

The issue here isn't the t12 4 set bonus being powerful (because it's not, estimates show it as a 3-4% increase), it's that Blizzard seems to want us to be very dependent on mb for damage which has never been a design intent in the past. My problem is that buffing mb sets us up for being weak at the start of the next tier once our casted mb's drop from losing the tier bonus. Since the bonuses will be multiplicative we will lose that extra coefficient once we drop our set bonus. In the long run we are just being set up for a buff in the future, which is something I would like to avoid when it's so plainly seen from this far out. Not to mention mb gibs are a strong complaint against priests in pvp and this 12% buff only exacerbates that problem. I think mb is fine where it is at and there's no reason to change it when the multi-dot issue can be solved with a little more tact.

I feel like you've drawn numbers out of thin air here. A 30k imp dp is a pretty massive, whereas a 3 orb mb at 24k is extremely low. Besides, you can't really compare crits to non-crits like that. Under normal circumstances a 3 orb mb will always do more than an imp dp, you shouldn't use worst and best case scenarios to further your argument.

What I was trying to point out is that right now, MB is pretty lackluster when compared to our DoTs (though yeah, the examples were a bit skewed). In theory, DoTs should be about small amounts of damage that add up to a lot when they are properly managed with CDs and procs. I've gotten really sad MB casts ranging from 12-24k (though I've also gotten sick crits around 60k, but those are rare from my experiences), and it's disheartening to see a burst direct damage spell doing less damage than a single tic of a DoT at any time, even if it's a crit. That just comes of to me as backwards. My guess is that Blizz is trying to buff our direct damage spells so they're actually good for some solid burst damage; can you really call it burst when MB can hit for less than a single tic from our DoTs? It seems odd for us to only care about the Shadow Orb mechanic with reverence to ES, so maybe they're trying to make it so we'll care about 1 vs. 2 vs. 3 orbs when we cast MB. I'd think more of it if they actually messed with the scaling for orb damage from mastery for MB, but it's something that seems kind of there rather than something we pay close attention to. I'm starting to ramble random thoughts though, so moving on.

It does seem like they are adding mobility to classes in extreme ways lately though, so perhaps there's a larger plan for priest mobility than the clumsy "spam dp" that it is. However, without an indication of such a change I'm not likely to take a nerf to my primary movement ability sitting down. If they want to give us a new source of movement damage that would be fine, but as it stands our movement dps is taking a large hit. Once again though, the point is that all of these side effects of the ptr changes can be avoided while still accomplishing their goal. You can try to justify their changes, but they don't make much sense in light of the fact that there are better solution out there, and that is the point I am arguing here.

Imp DP is a bit of a monster on its own for moving spam, but I'm always skeptical of proposed changes beyond %damage. It's easy to do some math since a %damage change is a simple calculation, but a new debuff like you suggested is more complex and is very dependent on how it interacts with other classes' buffs/debuffs. Our stats will be increasing in the next tier, so will the bonus crit and haste allow us to keep up with other casters despite the DoT nerf? What about comparing that scaling to the debuff idea you had? I do still like the idea, but it's also not so simple to just say "yes, that will fix it". That said, I don't have any other ideas to offer besides the debuff you proposed. It would be interesting to try out though.

I'm sorry, but I'm not a big fan of the idea of having to spend a gcd to place a bubble on myself in order to cast an ability. Nor would I want to come into a raid telling healers that "Hey, I'm going to need my own healer for <25% when I hit myself twice in a row with 50k plus swd backlashes." There's something wrong with the ability when a crit on Halfus can easily mean my life. With as much raid damage as there is going out in many bosses during that final burn phase, it is absolutely irresponsible for me to expect healers to turn their attention from the tanks just to focus on the tremendous avoidable damage I'm taking. I would sacrifice swd strength if it meant not having to stress healers any further on hm's or have to gamble with my life when large buffs have gone out.

I was just offering a suggestion if you're nervous about SW: D spam on certain fights. I don't think the backlash gets as high as 50k though (except maybe Halfus with the damage buff) since we have the backlash reducing talent (30% reduction, correct?). I find the GCD to be worth it for two instant 30-50k hits on most bosses, though I often don't have to since the healers are a bit insane in my group. I typically only bubble myself if my health is ~ sub 80k when I'm planning to double tap just so the heals don't panic, and I have yet to die from SW: D backlash, even on Halfus. I actually don't ask our healers to pay special attention, but I know in some pugs/guilds, raid healers will QQ over any self-inflicted damage such as SW: D and Life Tap and refuse to heal through it, hence my mention of bringing it up with the healers. I've done a handful of pugs where they even stop healing me for the rest of a dungeon because I cast SW: D at all (even on later fights where taking damage is just part of the fight), so healers' temperment can be part of it.

The boss debuff for the whole raid idea is more of a pipe dream than a legitimate request. It would be nice, but it would mean that every other dot user would have to be balanced around it. Just food for though, more or less. The simplest incarnation would just a debuff placed on the boss whenever imp dp hits that lasts for the duration of dp. It will be removed when dp wears off and applied right when imp dp hits. This way it can be rolled into the imp dp talent for a nice little package deal. Of course there would have to be intelligent coding used to make sure one couldn't exploit the talent to spam dp across multiple targets to gain the debuff on every target, but I would leave that to the programmers to figure out. The idea is there, and that's what I'm primarily focused on.

As I said, I do like the idea, but it seems more like a talent or glyph thing after some more thought. I recall Blizz scaled a lot of stuff back for low levels since they were insane for a bit after 4.0 hit, so I can see them hesitating about making an effect like that innate. Another concern would be making a second Curse of the Elements, so they'd want to avoid having it affect other classes as well. Perhaps it's a good idea for a Glyph of Devouring Plague similar to what Glyph of Shadow Word: Pain used to be?

Well the thing about my suggested change is that our current single target viability would remain unaltered, and we're not in too rough shape atm. Nerfing our dots would only hurt in pvp without a change such as this seeing as a mind spike rotation has limited use in any ranked pvp. I'm also not sure what mind blast you're using, but the thing hits like a truck. I'm surprised anyone would have a complaint with its current form. Increasing its damage would only lead to complaints by other classes. As for mind spike, it simply has a time and a place for proper use.

MB can hit hard, but a 1, 1, 2 rotation is not very good for PVP whenever a healer is involved. We have our fears and the MB debuff to healing, but it's not all that competitive compared to the abilities of other classes. What I find most aggravating about PVP is that we essentially have 2 strats: MS/MB/SW: D burst spam, or multidotting. We can't use both on the same target just because MS wipes out our DoTs, and one strat is usually very weak while the other is very strong with how back and forth the nerfs/buffs have gone. I find it makes us very predictable, and that's never a good thing in PVP. That may be just due to my average PVP skill (I focus mostly on raiding), but it's aggravating all the same.

Frankly put, I don't care about them. Their own population will ensure that their opinions are heard, and I am here to do the same for priests. I am concerned with making sure my class is always heading in a proper direction. Multi-dotting needed to be nerfed, but not the way they are suggesting.

I mostly brought up the other classes because my focus was on how the changes on the PTR seem to be an attempt to bring us in line with other classes for PVE multidotting. I don't get the feeling that they dislike how we can do more than single-target DPS now, especially with the Mind Sear buff they just did (and that they didn't revoke it in 4.2 PTR). I think it's more of a concern that spriests of equal skill and gear (and all other variables being equal, etc.) will always win out on DPS over another caster except for massive AOE.

Once again my problem isn't that we are getting nerfed, it's the heavy-handed method in which we were nerfed which seems to be without much foresight on the repercussions. If Blizzard intends to make us a burst class, so be it, but I would like to see some indication that this is their design goal before I give up on maintaining the current shadowpriest playstyle. This is not a qq or complaint thread; this is a thread to draw more awareness to how their scheduled changes will influence shadowpriests and how to avoid some unnecessary consequences of such while also offering alternatives.

I didn't mean to write my last reply as though it was a response to a QQ, so hopefully that's not the tone I'm giving out. However, I'm looking at these changes with the past nerfs/buffs in mind; 12% isn't as intimidating compared to the 30%, 60%, 100% base damage changes we had been getting to our spells in the weeks following Cata's release, so I guess I've gotten a bit more complacent about it. Compared to the other 4.x patches we've had, these changes are actually pretty moderate, so I feel like Blizz has realized they can't just half or double the damage of spells across the board without drastically changing how we play. I'm not dismissing the fact that they're compensating our lower DoT damage with burst damage (after all, we're a DoT class, it's just odd), and I do agree there's probably better ways to manage it, but I have no alternatives in my mind. I'm willing to give this 12% juggle a try, but I do hope they come up with something like what you suggested because it's simply more fun that way.

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to downplay your concerns, I just have a different perspective. I'm actually glad to see that Blizz is constantly looking at our particular spec with almost every single patch. After all, we're a single spec from 1 of 10 classes, and we're always being brought up when discussing raid balance. This is a big change from Wrath, where we got ignored for months on end, so even if it's a funky dance with nerfs and buffs galore. It's pretty nice for our spec to be in the spotlight, especially when we're maintaining our #1 spot instead of instantly being drop-kicked to the bottom of the charts. It's like being the teacher's pet, we get plenty of perks, but everyone else is jealous cause we're awesome, so it causes tension. =B

--Edit

Just had an idea, but I'm sleepy and going to bed, so I'll post it and reflect on how idiotic it probably is tomorrow.

Rather than increasing base damage of our burst spells, why not increase mastery scaling? This could either increase the scaling for the stat to rating or the scaling for rating to %damage increased. MB and MS damage would increase with orbs, the DoT damage reduction gets softened a bit with a stronger ES, SW: D backlash is not a bigger concern, and it makes the stat more valuable. However, I'm unsure just how much of a change would be required to make this option viable without being so OP that it has to be instantly nerfed due to PVP issues. I'd like to see a change where things we have that we pretty much ignore get fixed so they're useful again.

[Hesp]

Just had an idea, but I'm sleepy and going to bed, so I'll post it and reflect on how idiotic it probably is tomorrow.

Rather than increasing base damage of our burst spells, why not increase mastery scaling? This could either increase the scaling for the stat to rating or the scaling for rating to %damage increased. MB and MS damage would increase with orbs, the DoT damage reduction gets softened a bit with a stronger ES, SW: D backlash is not a bigger concern, and it makes the stat more valuable. However, I'm unsure just how much of a change would be required to make this option viable without being so OP that it has to be instantly nerfed due to PVP issues. I'd like to see a change where things we have that we pretty much ignore get fixed so they're useful again.

Well if I understand you correctly it sounds like that would more or less negate the changes they are introducing. Nerfing dots but increasing mastery scaling to compensate sounds like it would simply trade baseline dot damage for added empowered shadows damage, which would cancel each other out and have us land exactly where we are now albeit with an even greater priority for es uptime. I suppose the biggest thing to the be said for that plan would be that it would improve the desirability of mastery, but honestly I love where our stat weights are at currently. Crit being nearly equal to mastery leads to a good amount of gear homogenization where, so long as the piece has haste, shadowpriest's have a lot of potential upgrades out there. Perhaps I'm not understanding your idea totally but then again I'm pretty tired myself.

[Direshadow]

Proper Dispell protection

get rid of Vampiric Embrace


that is all...

[stickyjam]

SWD buff shud mean VE buff too