Omnitron or V&T (Heroic)

[Lohrakam]

My (10 Man) guild currently stands at 5/13 (HC) and are trying to figure out whether to do Omnitron Defense System or Valiona and Theralion next.
Our raid comp is as follows:
Tanks:
Feral Druid
Prot Pally
Healers:
Resto Sham or Holy/Disc Priest
Holy Pally
Resto Druid
DPS:
Marks Hunter
Fire Mage
Aff Lock
Frost DK
Enhance Shaman, Boomkin, or Warrior

Since we do not have a rogue for V&T I'd imagine that would make the fight a little harder, but I'd still like to know what you guys think would be an easier next heroic boss to tackle.

[Trispec]

Go omnotron if you don't have a rogue.

[Deleted]

Pretty much VT, even without a rogue it's pretty doable.

[Deleted]

Omnotron Heroic is argueably the worst designed encounter of all time. If you go there, expect wiping 192803102938 times due to sheer bad luck. If you compare it to V&T for example Omnotron is probably 500000% harder.

We had 1 lucky attempt to 3%, but now we're back to the normal wiping at 60%.

[Malefic]

Omnotron Heroic is argueably the worst designed encounter of all time. If you go there, expect wiping 192803102938 times due to sheer bad luck. If you compare it to V&T for example Omnotron is probably 500000% harder.

We had 1 lucky attempt to 3%, but now we're back to the normal wiping at 60%.

We 3 shot Omnotron Heroic from our very first pull?

[Krantz Shadowforge]

If i see ONE MORE reply about people saying go VT with a rogue, a kitten might get hurt.

Every single thread where VT is even briefly mentioned theres 50 replies mentioning a rogue.

Yes it makes a fight easier but that's no reason to tell every person asking for advice to sub a rogue in their group, because not everyone wants to and it's not freakin' needed.

/rant

My guild is also at 5/13 heroic and are also deciding between VT and ODS heroic, we had some shots at ODS (71%) and feel VT would be an easier choice, can't say for sure yet though.

ODS just feels like you should get lucky not getting a grip with shadow conductor up or when an add just happens to be near a cloud when you get gripped.

[Dacomp89]

For V&T we had a sub rogue but for some reason our leader still wanted to send 3 people in, and even then it took only 8 attempts. I don't see how ODS is poorly designed; I actually think it's one of the most fun fights in the tier. Perhaps you should work on your raid awareness, because that's all it is.

[Deleted]

We 3 shot Omnotron Heroic from our very first pull?

Got lucky. Gz.

---------- Post added 2011-05-17 at 08:42 PM ----------

For V&T we had a sub rogue but for some reason our leader still wanted to send 3 people in, and even then it took only 8 attempts. I don't see how ODS is poorly designed; I actually think it's one of the most fun fights in the tier. Perhaps you should work on your raid awareness, because that's all it is.

Tonight is just another night, spent a good 7 raidnights on Omni HC so far. It happens approx 10 times a night that we get adds, instantly get a cloud on a melee or tank standing near/dpsing the adds, then getting gripped into the cloud ontop of the adds, instantly wiping. So that's 20% of your attempts, the other 80% are split in between getting gripped out of interrupt range (Arcane Annihilator), people fucking up or otherwise getting raped by a random event that couldn't possibly be avoided.

[Vanyali]

For V&T we had a sub rogue but for some reason our leader still wanted to send 3 people in, and even then it took only 8 attempts. I don't see how ODS is poorly designed; I actually think it's one of the most fun fights in the tier. Perhaps you should work on your raid awareness, because that's all it is.

Because getting a shadow conductor with a poison grip is bad.
Or shadow conductor + security measure, which is a terrible amount of damage.

Two of the worst combos to heal through and there's nothing you can do about them but try to manage it. Depending on your comp, you might run out of CDs and simply explode from the massive amount of damage

[Deleted]

You shouldn't avoid V&T just cause you can't cheese it with a Rogue. It's very doable without one. Any ranged class can get several down alone, then a, for instance, Warrior can stay down for a long time with his Victory Rushes.

It's not necessary to kill the sentries constantly. Go down, take down a few then go back up to speed up the boss kill is better in most cases.

[Juicy]

I would say shadow conductor on Toxitron tank is the most annoying part. Everything else can easily be handled with raid cd's.

[Dacomp89]

Tonight is just another night, spent a good 7 raidnights on Omni HC so far. It happens approx 10 times a night that we get adds, instantly get a cloud on a melee or tank standing near/dpsing the adds, then getting gripped into the cloud ontop of the adds, instantly wiping. So that's 20% of your attempts, the other 80% are split in between getting gripped out of interrupt range (Arcane Annihilator), people fucking up or otherwise getting raped by a random event that couldn't possibly be avoided.

The adds should be dead by the time the cloud spawns, your dps needs to switch faster because there's definitely a time interval, though it is short. If you're gripped during Arcane Annihilator you should have a ranged dps assigned to get the interrupt.

Because getting a shadow conductor with a poison grip is bad.
Or shadow conductor + security measure, which is a terrible amount of damage.

Those are indeed both bad combos, but that's what raid CDs are for. Barrier or spirit link, or any other. If you're gripped you just need to watch for the person to stack on and move quickly.

[Ormula]

Because getting a shadow conductor with a poison grip is bad.
Or shadow conductor + security measure, which is a terrible amount of damage.

Two of the worst combos to heal through and there's nothing you can do about them but try to manage it. Depending on your comp, you might run out of CDs and simply explode from the massive amount of damage

Well you'll never have shadow conductor with a death grip, the worst you can do is get death gripped with lightning conductor and then that's one of the few times you'll really need a cooldown. Security measure + Shadow Conductor is really not that bad if you have good aoe heals and a disc priest.

[Wilderness]

OP: Even without a rogue V&T is certainly very doable. Sub rogue's are the best class to go down but warriors can do quite well and so can blood DKs (we've done it with a blood DK when our rogue wasn't available). ODS can seem chaotic at first, but once you get some practice with it the heroic changes really don't add that much to the fight, its just a lot of raid awareness and you do need each and every person to know what abilities could be empowered and how to react when it happens.

I wouldn't say that either is particularly hard and you'd be fine going with either next. The one downside to working on ODS is that blocks the interior of BWD which is more bosses than in BoT. If you work on V&T but don't get it down, it doesn't take long to put it on normal and knock out V&T/Council/Cho'gall. If you work on ODS without a kill and then need to finish farming gear you'll have 5 bosses to kill, and you may or may not have the heroic bosses later in BWD on 1-shot farm status so it becomes harder to judge when to stop working on ODS and just kill things. Its a hurdle you'll have to face at some point, but it may be easier to do V&T now and worry about that next.

Omnotron Heroic is argueably the worst designed encounter of all time. If you go there, expect wiping 192803102938 times due to sheer bad luck. If you compare it to V&T for example Omnotron is probably 500000% harder.

We had 1 lucky attempt to 3%, but now we're back to the normal wiping at 60%.

There is nothing wrong with the encounter, it simply takes raid awareness by each and every member of your raid. If people position correctly and react appropriately to the empowered abilities then its not complicated at all. Clearly you aren't doing that.

Tonight is just another night, spent a good 7 raidnights on Omni HC so far. It happens approx 10 times a night that we get adds, instantly get a cloud on a melee or tank standing near/dpsing the adds, then getting gripped into the cloud ontop of the adds, instantly wiping. So that's 20% of your attempts, the other 80% are split in between getting gripped out of interrupt range (Arcane Annihilator), people fucking up or otherwise getting raped by a random event that couldn't possibly be avoided.

You're exaggerating. You don't ever get a cloud spawn and then instantly get gripped into it. The timers don't work like that. You just aren't moving at the right times or you are not adjusting Toxitrons position based on where a cloud is located. How can you get gripped out of interrupt range? If your raid is spread out far enough for a cloud and Arcanotron to be that far apart then again you are doing it wrong. I know that it takes coordination and raid awareness for this fight but it is by no means contains events which cannot be avoided.

Because getting a shadow conductor with a poison grip is bad.
Or shadow conductor + security measure, which is a terrible amount of damage.

Two of the worst combos to heal through and there's nothing you can do about them but try to manage it. Depending on your comp, you might run out of CDs and simply explode from the massive amount of damage

You can't get a shadow conductor and a poison grip at the same time.

Yes, shadow conductor and security measure is a lot of damage to the raid but its certainly survivable, particularly with the nerf to the fire aoe a while back. Even if you get shadow conductor every time its up it is still very much survivable if people move apart and together quickly. Its not easy to get it repeatedly but it doesn't make the fight impossible either.

[Deleted]

which 5 hc bosses have you killed?

[ttkyle]

There isn't a lot of tough stuff on Omno anymore, if you're raid plays 100% perfect it's an easy encounter (imo). You should have had someone powerlvl a rogue a bit ago though, since they rogue can pretty much do v&t in blues.

[Voluum]

We haven't even attempted HM ods or HM magmaw and last week we did v&t with a subtley rogue, he stayed down in the twilight realm the entire fight, we killed it on the last pull of the night so I'd say go try v&t and try and recruit a good subtley rogue if you can

[Lohrakam]

If we were to go after V&T and use our current raid comp, what would be the best way in dealing with killing the sentries? I haven't really seen any strategy guides that don't include having a rogue be mandatory, so any advice would be great!

[Deleted]

omnotron is much easier, sometimes even a small battle bliss.

Valiona is a rogue much easier (no need heroic gear) but can do without a villain. A Death Knight is also suitable for it.

[Deleted]

Omin took us 40ish tries and most of that was us getting the tacs down with grping and splitting. It was a great fight and i loved it. Come on V&T tonight!