1. #1

    Should the Holy Tree be reworked?

    So recently I've been thinking about how I want to change my specc a bit soon.

    Currently I'm specced like this:

    http://wowtal.com/#k=bv0GrCevi.ala.priest.

    Now, once I get my T11-4pc (which I still don't have because those shoulders just don't want to drop >_>), I decided I would specc out of Veiled Shadows, but then I started thinking about all the other talent points I spend, and even currently can't really take advantage of.

    The whole thing starts with Inspiration. A talent that revolves around tankheal and crit in a specc that can't really take advantage of crit and is probably the worst tank heal there is atm. But I can't really specc out of it, and it's at least somewhat beneficial.
    Then, there is Tome of Light. Considering Serenity is our best Holy Word, but I'm always in Sanctuary anyways, I guess I could drop this talent easily. Especially because there usually isn't really a reason to use HW: Sanctuary anyways.
    That's why I came to the next conclusion: Revelations is useless. HW: Sanctuary just isn't a good spell by any means. It can improve your HPS, ofc, but it just doesn't do too much (except sparkle), so it probably wouldn't be missed.

    So in total, I have 7 talent points free now, but where to spend them? 1 ofc is going to max out Mental Agility. Leaves 6 - that I can't really spend in any "good" talents, can I? I mean rapid renewal wouldn't be too bad for sure, but Spirit of Redemption, a skill that is ONLY good in a bad situation (either you're helplessly oom - which as holy I find is not that big of an issue really, because you regen rather fast from spirit anyways, and by the time you are that oom, the boss should be near dead anyways - OR - you simply just died from some mechanic you shouldn't die to). Also SoR has the issue of being immobile, so often you'd find yourself in a situation where you just couldn't make any use of it anyways. State of Mind is right now, completely useless. There's no reason to spend points in it, because you shouldn't be switching Chakra that often anyways, especially considering Sanctuary is the stronger Chakra on pretty much any enounter there is. This leaves me with... Blessed Resilience, which seems to me like an okay talent. Nothing too grand, but I can certainly use it for PvE, as most enounters do have AoE skills, most of which can hit for 10% of your health easily (unless AoE abilities don't procc it).
    But that's just 3 points, that I put into situational talents, and still 3 left, that I can't really put into anything that would just be a straight "good" talent - why is that?

  2. #2
    I'm gonna switch to this spec(+rapid renewal, -Veiled Shadows)
    http://wowtal.com/#k=tYcBaRHZ.ala.priest.qy0Zz4
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  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyve View Post
    But that's just 3 points, that I put into situational talents, and still 3 left, that I can't really put into anything that would just be a straight "good" talent - why is that?
    It's because not every talent should be awesome. Because when a talent is awesome and always useful, it becomes mandatory. And Blizzard wanted to make room for situational talents so not every player had the same spec.
    Retired Holy Priest
    As a rule, I try to act on the internet as I would in real life. If I have offended you, feel free to point it out. Unless I meant to offend you, I will probably apologize.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    It's because not every talent should be awesome. Because when a talent is awesome and always useful, it becomes mandatory. And Blizzard wanted to make room for situational talents so not every player had the same spec.
    But the thing is, that I have to spend points into talent that are barely, (if at all) beneficial to me, forcing me to spend points where I don't really want to. Also, I don't really want every talent to be awesome, I just want every talent point I spend to be beneficial to me, even if it is just situational, as long as that situational usefulness isn't so little it starts to have barely any impact to my gameplay at all (which is the way it is now with Revelations/Tome of Light in raids, or Spirit of Redemption, which seems to be primarily useful in PvP, if it is even useful at all).

    And besides, what you say isn't entirely true, for instance as a Shadow, you only get really 1 point you are able to spend "freely" every other point is pretty much required to be spent somewhere for dps purposes. The other interesting part about that is that, instead of changing it for shadows, so that the Holy tree actually holds interesting talents too, they made it even more obvious that you have to spend points into discipline.

    Or another comparison: When I decide to specc my Shaman, there's actually talents I have to pick over others, that would/could still be useful, but the ones I pick are just better, unless there certain situations where I would need for instance, the instant ghost wolf, then I'd pick that up.
    Last edited by Skyve; 2011-05-18 at 10:16 PM.

  5. #5
    I personally believe that every talent should be attractive to players so we have a REAL choice on how to spec our character and still be effective/competitive. I hate it when they change trees and you can easily look at the talents and say "Right, I don't want that...or that."

    Realistically, at this point in time, the best things they can do is completely rethink State of Mind and Holy Word: Sanctuary.

  6. #6
    It's depends on which raid you are in. I completely agree with Ynna's opinion.
    To have no best build is just what Blizzard wants.

  7. #7
    just because some talents aren't good enough for your playstyle doesn't mean the holy tree needs to be reworked.

    while many agree that some talents have to be reworked/replaced (SoM being the first on the list for that specific category), most others are just fine and have their use for now, provided the right conditions.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yukymint View Post
    It's depends on which raid you are in. I completely agree with Ynna's opinion.
    To have no best build is just what Blizzard wants.
    That being said, it is also true that some talents could be reworked. Especially State of Mind comes to mind(!). But the Holy Tree is perfectly functional and still offers some variation. It would be nice to see the tree freshened up, but I don't think Blizzard should liberate resources for just that.
    Retired Holy Priest
    As a rule, I try to act on the internet as I would in real life. If I have offended you, feel free to point it out. Unless I meant to offend you, I will probably apologize.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by sacrypheyes View Post
    just because some talents aren't good enough for your playstyle doesn't mean the holy tree needs to be reworked.
    This.

    But since I need to type at least 10 characters I need some filler ...

  10. #10
    Just thank Blizzard our spells are "too" good by baseline. Imagine all the renew talent boosting PoH for example.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by sacrypheyes View Post
    just because some talents aren't good enough for your playstyle doesn't mean the holy tree needs to be reworked.

    while many agree that some talents have to be reworked/replaced (SoM being the first on the list for that specific category), most others are just fine and have their use for now, provided the right conditions.
    But it isn't just me who thinks that Holy Word: Sanctuary is bad. And considering that Chakra: Sanctuary IS our "Raid Chakra" (because you usually have no reason to not be in it), that removes Revelations and Tome of Light from the list of useful talents from pretty much any raid priests arsenal.
    State of Mind is obviously utter crap, considering that the usefulness of different Chakras is more limited to different tiers of content, rather than boss mechanics (because every raidboss nowadays has AoE, so Serenity is really only useful when you are doing heroic dungeons as a freshly 85 priest I guess). Which in turn would mean, that I have "outgeared" (?) those talents?
    Does that even make sense, that you can "outgear" your talents, so they drop in usefulness for you?

    And the other thing is Spirit of Redemption, which, not much unlike Lightwell, has been there ever since, but never has been a good talent (except for the time when it gave bonus spirit). Unlike Lightwell however, the skills mechanic where never changed to be actually useful. While Lightwell is (in theory) an entirely valid option, and a solid spell, SoR isn't. The only encounter SoR probably was ever really any useful as Azgalor in Mount Hyjal, because there Players ALWAYS would die, due to the doom effect.
    And then we have Inspiration, which in theory is an okay talent, but it just doesn't fit into the holy tree, or the way it works.

    Just thank Blizzard our spells are "too" good by baseline. Imagine all the renew talent boosting PoH for example.
    That's the other weird thing about priests, yes, other healers interestingly enough seem to gain much larger changes to the way their heals work through their talents, but that's not really a concern, and it obviously has something to do with us having two healing speccs.

    just because some talents aren't good enough for your playstyle doesn't mean the holy tree needs to be reworked
    Well, I guess I did exaggerate a bit, I don't really want the whole tree to be reworked, but I wish there were more useful talents, so you actually have to decide on what you pick, and what you don't.

  12. #12
    I am one of the "Sanctuary is bad" crowd. It is a spell that does wonders for my HPS, but it does not do any difference. If the raid is stacked up, its healing is much less than a half a percent per target per tick. Who cares? If I had a spammable spell that healed every player online on every server out there for 1 HP each, I would top every meter ever made, but it doesn't mean I would be doing anything useful by casting it. That 1 HP might save a lvl 1 player from death, but only because that 1 HP is worth 2-3% of a healthbar. Sanctuary is much worse than that. It's a bloody expensive number-padding spell that you never really will notice if you stop casting.

    I actually like Revelations and Tome of light, despite hardly ever using Sanctuary. Because even if I don't use Sanctiary, Serenity is actually quite excellent. I admit it, I usually pump out heals like crazy, run oom, and then work hard on holding back for the remaining 7 minutes of the fight. In those cases, Serenity is a godsent spell that can be used for spothealing, tankhealing and quite a few other things that will save lives en-masse. Sure, I will end up last on the healing meters if I go down that route, but I certainly feel useful while doing it, and the overall raid survivability increase by quite a lot if I do it. And as long as the healers collectively push out enough HPS, that's not a bad state to be in.

    Spirit of Redemption has exactly one PVE use-case these days. When you wipe, make sure to die last, stack up some haste, and pray that the boss reset quickly. Then cast mass-resurrection while in angel form (you're out of combat once the boss reset, and the spell can be cast in angelform). Sure, it's easier to have a shaman ankh, but it does do the trick.

    Inspiration... it's good if you're in Serenity mode. Chances are you don't like being last on the meters.

    Bottom line:
    ========

    Do the holy tree need a rework? Not at all.
    Are there mechanics in it that simply don't flow well? Definitively.
    Is it important enough to change considering paladins are always in complete need of a class redesign? Probably not.

  13. #13
    Inspiration... it's good if you're in Serenity mode. Chances are you don't like being last on the meters.
    It has more to do with doing what you're good at. If I wanted to tank heal, I'd specc disc, because just for tank heal, disc outperforms Holy (and disc actually has use for crit, making Inspiration a good talent for disc priests). I like doing what my specc is best at, and single target healing with Serenity isn't what Holy is good for (unless in P1 on Al'Akir, or Chimaeron outside of feudes). I mean we pretty much always raid with a Resto shaman, and Resto shamans simply outperform me on single target healing, while on most bosses, I outperform them in AoE healing (Halfus HC for instance, while Shamans are good at group healing on Atramedes HC, considering we stack up).

    I actually like Revelations and Tome of light, despite hardly ever using Sanctuary.
    I do like the concept, I just feel like the end result is lacking. I'd rather have HW: Serenity for healing, rather than Sanctuary, because it's just soooooo good. But since I never really am able to make use of it anyways, because Sanctuary just really is the better Chakra, i never really have Serenity. Besides, the 15% boost to PoM and renew make tank healing easier anyways (which makes Chakra: Serenity sadly even less appealing).

    Oh, and on Tome of Light:

    Design-wise, this is a very, very bad talent. Why? Because holy is the only specc with holy words. If you use Holy Words, then you specc Tome of Light, which in turn means that you never use Holy words with their "normal" CD - which makes this talent "baseline", meaning you have to take it.
    It's basically the same, if they reduced the damage of Mind Flay, but then put a talent into the Shadow tree that completely makes up for the reduced damage. It's a talent that serves no point, other than being a "filler".

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