DK PvP Heals

[Glorenzelg]

Do any of you realise how easy Death Knight healing is to prevent............ like seriously......................?

Since they heal with a strike, which is melee, how could another melee class prevent it?

[Zalavaaris]

No one asked to remove DK selfheals though, just the tuning down of it.



Saying "every" is probably not so accurate, but yea, quite a few. Why? Because the QQ is justified as far as Frost DK OP'ness goes. And actually, I don't really care wether they tone down their healing, control OR damage, as long as Frost DK's DO get toned down. They got to much of all 3 atm, and at least 1 of those factors needs to be toned down to balance them somewhat more. I bet the DK community is having less problems when their (frost dk's) healing gets toned down though, rather then their control and/or damage.



And why exactly? Why just once? I mean, it's not like you need insanely long CD's to heal back up.

If you need to ask why, you dont know enough to argue against us. Nuff said friend.

[xBreak]

Death Strike = All their runes for 45% HP if they do 3 in a row.

You can disarm for DS spam and/or kite + call pets back. DKs can still DS totems and/or Shadowy Apparitions though. They'll likely have popped ERW already, but if they didn't, it can be 90% HP over 12 secs basically which you SHOULD be putting pressure on them still anyways and they won't end up at >90% HP unless you let them or have horrible damage..

Death Pact = 25% HP.

You can silence/stun them and they will not be able to Death Pact, obviously.

Lichborne (10s) + Death Coil = 3 generally 20k heals unless you fuel their AMS, and that's if they're Unholy. At most with GCD they can do 5.

You can stun through AMS as long as it's not HoJ since it's considered a magic debuff. This means you can Throwdown him, for example, for a 5 sec stun while his AMS + Lichborne is up and 2 seconds later (if he's glyphed for AMS) Turn Evil him or preemptively cast Shackle Undead when he has a second left on AMS and you will have given him 1 20k heal in that time.. if he pops IBF he won't be able to use it later, so you'll effectively have gotten him to pop 3 CDs and he'll not have gotten as many heals off still.

If there is no AMS with Lichborne, for any given reason, you are then able to Turn Evil him, Shackle Undead him, Stun him or Silence him in this duration as much as you want.

You can silence him before AMS if you see the Lichborne animation in time but most of the time that won't happen so yeah.

Other CDs DKs have besides healing ones is AMS (which can be used defensively and offensively so you CAN catch them with it down) which is on a 45 sec CD and it will prevent 75% magic damage and magic debuffs from coming in unless he's Unholy then it'll be 100%. You can silence him preemptively and he won't be able to use it, either.

The last CD DKs have is Icebound Fortitude, which is on a 3 min CD, and makes him immune to stuns and reduces all damage taken by 20% for 12 secs.

Preventing their heals is very possible.

And several classes, such as Feral Druids can pop CDs in a dire state to save themselves even while the healer's CC'd, so why should DKs not have a way to prevent their deaths while the healer's CC'd like most classes..? Their CDs do go on CD, you know, and some of them will already have been used offensively. And as a Feral you even can jump in Bear (which also increases your HP) and take 12% less damage from a talent + have plenty of armor reducing damage against melee whenever you need to.. my brother has 44k armor in Bear and that means CS puts it at 22k.. 2k above mine when I'm not CS'd.

And you saying it doesn't affect their damage at all and say "oh it gives them RP still!" well... so would NS + HB or Oblit.. but they'd have done damage with those and/or absorbs so yes it DOES affect their damage. Durrr.

PS: My runes take 8.86s to return so.. 3 DS..
1s - Death Strike (2 runes each) 8.86s
2s - First 2 runes are now at 7.86s until they're back up (GCD)
3s - Death Strike (2 runes each) 6.86s
4s - These Unholy & Frost Runes won't start back up until the first ones finish. First at 5.86
5s - Death Strike (2 runes each) 4.86s
6s - 1 Death Rune will be up in 8.86s and the next will start back up after that. First 2 runes are at 3.86s until they're up and the 2nd set starts back up.

Do the math.. they aren't going to magically be up in like 5 seconds as you guys assume.

[Balduvian]

If you need to ask why, you dont know enough to argue against us. Nuff said friend.

Oh really? Since this is a major part of the problem.

[Gangresnake]

And several classes, such as Feral Druids can pop CDs in a dire state to save themselves even while the healer's CC'd, so why should DKs not have a way to prevent their deaths while the healer's CC'd like most classes..?

No problem, they already have a bazillon defensive CD, such a AMS+Icebound fort+ Pet sacrifice+ AMZ/pillar of frost

So why in the world do they need to have a strike that can outheal a caster DPS ?

Since they heal with a strike, which is melee, how could another melee class prevent it?

Even more, how could ANY class but a frost mage could prevent it ?

[rtjason]

well id like to say our dps output is not the best compared to other classes
..Its not that much worse but still noticable
the heals also really help since we are pretty easy to kite (at low skill levels)(it took me at least 100+ arena matches to get the hand of fighting of being kited as a dk)(im speaking of course at 1500+ rating below that arena is a joke)
and noone uses blood dks at high ratings so im not talking about them

At first I was like, he plays blood. Then I was like, gotta be trolling. Now I'm like he compared his damage to a warrior, only possible explanation.

---------- Post added 2011-05-21 at 12:41 AM ----------

No problem, they already have a bazillon defensive CD, such a AMS+Icebound fort+ Pet sacrifice+ AMZ/pillar of frost

So why in the world do they need to have a strike that can outheal a caster DPS ?



Even more, how could ANY class but a frost mage could prevent it ?

I

That's exactly right. I play a mage and don't see how in the hell any other class (caster) has a chance in hell. I took a break for about 3 months or so, came back and qued some threes. Out of 40 comps, 6 have not had a dk in them. Around 30 were double melee cleaves. This isn't glad range but it's a realistic picture of 2200-2400 on my bg. Logged on my lock, was like hell with this shit after 5 matches.

[Flexxtar]

@balduvian:

It's funny how you never respond to valid points in this thread, and also how you do respond on every negative point on DK threads.

Xbreak summarizes a lot on the DK mechanics. Read it and take it in.

Feral druids should be kiting DK's with bleeds, I've run into some, and they are really annoying, staying away just a few inches away from melee range, then move in to bleed again.

[Sonae]

Since they heal with a strike, which is melee, how could another melee class prevent it?

Disarm, Silence and Stuns.

[Balduvian]

@balduvian:

It's funny how you never respond to valid points in this thread, and also how you do respond on every negative point on DK threads.

Xbreak summarizes a lot on the DK mechanics. Read it and take it in.

Feral druids should be kiting DK's with bleeds, I've run into some, and they are really annoying, staying away just a few inches away from melee range, then move in to bleed again.

I don't because I couldn't be arsed to reply in this topic at all anymore, but just because you make a post directly for me I will.

Anyway, it's not like I personally can't beat Frost DK's as Feral Druids. I can handle them in 1v1 all of the time, and in 2v2 and 3v3, sure I got a 50% chance, but that mostly has to do with the setup(s). Does that change the fact that DK's are horribly OP though, and that their selfhealing DOES need a nerf? I don't think so.

Anyway, now I'm out for real. It's just going to end up in to you (and other people) making another "you're wrong"-post and me making another "I'm not, nerf DK's"-post.

Cheers, Lashed.

EDIT: Deleted subscription.

[Deleted]

Glyph of Dark Succor - Heals you for 15%+ of your health when you use death strike in Unholy Presence.

Pretty Much GG for Casters if Anti Magic is up.

[Deleted]

i dont think he's specifically talking blood...i hate lichborn and deathcoil especially when glyphed with death's embrace it's far too op

your all focusing too much on blood...blood isnt a very high rated pvp spec...hence not hte issue

When he heals his pet? Gosh people whine about stuff that already have been fixed. It's show how badley people keep them self updated to the faqs... Same goes whit the "oh dk solo 2 hc bosses" It have been fixed aswell as blood being superb in arena.

And by the looks of this thread all DK's run around whit a 31/31/31 spec. Healing like healers while dealing damage as arcane mages.

---------- Post added 2011-05-21 at 03:03 PM ----------

I don't because I couldn't be arsed to reply in this topic at all anymore, but just because you make a post directly for me I will.

Anyway, it's not like I personally can't beat Frost DK's as Feral Druids. I can handle them in 1v1 all of the time, and in 2v2 and 3v3, sure I got a 50% chance, but that mostly has to do with the setup(s). Does that change the fact that DK's are horribly OP though, and that their selfhealing DOES need a nerf? I don't think so.

Anyway, now I'm out for real. It's just going to end up in to you (and other people) making another "you're wrong"-post and me making another "I'm not, nerf DK's"-post.

Cheers, Lashed.

EDIT: Deleted subscription.

So what you are saying is you win 100% in 1vs1. but you allso want to win 100% in 2v2 and 3v3 coz now its only 50% chanse?
Gooosh........ you make me sad panda :,(

---------- Post added 2011-05-21 at 03:15 PM ----------

Glyph of Dark Succor - Heals you for 15%+ of your health when you use death strike in Unholy Presence.

Pretty Much GG for Casters if Anti Magic is up.

Coz AMS is allways up? Sure when its up it is hard but it is only on for max 5 sec, and then it have 45 sec cooldown. It works like a priest shield vs spells. So Shadowpriests is op coz thay absorb melee dmg! And thay can use it every 15 sec!
So the totall amount of dmg it absorb is the same amount every min for SP and DKs Priest
PW:S 18k x 4 = 72k/min AMS 50% of 120k (DK in pvp gear) = 60k/min.

[Balduvian]

So what you are saying is you win 100% in 1vs1. but you allso want to win 100% in 2v2 and 3v3 coz now its only 50% chanse?
Gooosh........ you make me sad panda :,(

Really didn't want to reply in this topic anymore but shit like this just makes me.

I can beat them, but the fact that it requires me to use my full arsenal of spells/CD's/CC and time it perfectly vs. a DK that uses an ammount of ~5-10 spells max. even over a 45 minute fight and yet he barely ever dies, has sick control over the fight and does awesome damage? That's just beyond me.

Not to mention that the DK's on 2-2.2k MMR still usually don't have a clue. It's their class paying them out in rating, not them.

Edit: deleted subscription again. Don't make me come back another time.

[Deleted]

Really didn't want to reply in this topic anymore but shit like this just makes me.

I can beat them, but the fact that it requires me to use my full arsenal of spells/CD's/CC and time it perfectly vs. a DK that uses an ammount of ~5-10 spells max. even over a 45 minute fight and yet he barely ever dies, has sick control over the fight and does awesome damage? That's just beyond me.

Not to mention that the DK's on 2-2.2k MMR still usually don't have a clue. It's their class paying them out in rating, not them.

Edit: deleted subscription again. Don't make me come back another time.

Well if you allmost kill him he have to blow his full arsenal "all DS spam / LB + Death coil / sac pet" he dont have anything more then that. So becuse you have to blow your arsenal on him he have to counter it. Or else he wold not even use DS at the start becuse you must have the upper hand if he needs to go defensive.

A frost DK dont have much more then you refere 5 - 10 spells. What do you want him to do. Use stuff like blood strike, death and decay and blood boil just to use more bottons to be pro like your class?

Gosh its like saying a ret paladin dont deserve to be at 2200 rating coz his basic arsenal of spells are ~10.

[xBreak]

Well if you allmost kill him he have to blow his full arsenal "all DS spam / LB + Death coil / sac pet" he dont have anything more then that. So becuse you have to blow your arsenal on him he have to counter it. Or else he wold not even use DS at the start becuse you must have the upper hand if he needs to go defensive.

A frost DK dont have much more then you refere 5 - 10 spells. What do you want him to do. Use stuff like blood strike, death and decay and blood boil just to use more bottons to be pro like your class?

Gosh its like saying a ret paladin dont deserve to be at 2200 rating coz his basic arsenal of spells are ~10.

o.O I can think of 13-15 abilities I use against Feral Druids (that are actually good and can put up a fight, not some random bad one) in a 1v1 fight.. he's just exaggerating because he's blindly hating a class he probably hasn't touched and hasn't done much research on or they really only need to use very little on him because he's not doing it right..

I just gave up on him in the last thread I was in, he hates being wrong and will respond with his opinion no matter how much you prove to him or not. I just ignore his posts now.

My brother who's playing at 2500 MMR even says Feral Druid isn't THAT hard either if you aren't bad (and I agree).. the main thing about Arena is being aware of what both teams are doing, proper communication, knowing other classes, and synergy. After you lose a game, if you evaluate what you should have done and how you want to pull it off it'll help you immensely. Don't be afraid to say you made mistakes or ask somebody else why they did something and ask them not to do it again. Even without that great of a comp you should be able to get 2200 if you can do those.. comp does matter though, if you want to go any further.

I mean when we face a melee cleave and they decide not to go for their healer.. who do they go for, me or my brother? Generally me (DK), and when they go on my brother (Feral) we generally win, 50/50 chance we'll win if they go for me instead.

[Balduvian]

A frost DK dont have much more then you refere 5 - 10 spells. What do you want him to do. Use stuff like blood strike, death and decay and blood boil just to use more bottons to be pro like your class?

Gosh its like saying a ret paladin dont deserve to be at 2200 rating coz his basic arsenal of spells are ~10.

Well, this is exactly my point though. One class shouldn't be THIS much easier than another, sure there can be differences...but this huge? 5-10 abilities vs. 30 or 40+ is just silly.

My brother who's playing at 2500 MMR even says Feral Druid isn't THAT hard either if you aren't bad (and I agree)

I agree too. Not a single class is hard if you aren't bad though, but the fact that some people that really don't have a clue can do well just because their class is so easy is going to far imo. (Yes, I dare to say that there are a lot of DK's on 2k+ ratings who don't have a clue. They'd probably be stuck on <1800's with another "harder" class.)

Also, "he hates being wrong" isn't really a viable arguement. Can say the same about you.

No hard feelings though, it's just a discussion and we don't agree. We can still be friends.

[Deleted]

Well, this is exactly my point though. One class shouldn't be THIS much easier than another, sure there can be differences...but this huge? 5-10 abilities vs. 30 or 40+ is just silly.



I agree too. Not a single class is hard if you aren't bad though, but the fact that some people that really don't have a clue can do well just because their class is so easy is going to far imo. (Yes, I dare to say that there are a lot of DK's on 2k+ ratings who don't have a clue. They'd probably be stuck on <1800's with another "harder" class.)

Also, "he hates being wrong" isn't really a viable arguement. Can say the same about you.

No hard feelings though, it's just a discussion and we don't agree. We can still be friends.

The ~5 - 10 was ment as "main" abilitys, not total... death knight have ~35 spells, but it does not mean all is useful in every battle. Its no way you use all your "~40" druid abilties as feral. And having more attacks dont mean it is harder it just gives you more variety for diffrent situations.

Shadow priest is the perfect example for that. In one situation thay use dots and drain, in another thay mindspike and instant mindblast crit for high burst.