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  1. #201
    I'm so proud of you guys! I stepped into here afraid it wasn't running, but you guys are doing an great job creating an excellent resource for warriors!
    Empirical epistemology.

  2. #202
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calmwinds View Post
    I'm so proud of you guys! I stepped into here afraid it wasn't running, but you guys are doing an great job creating an excellent resource for warriors!
    Thanks man!

    ---------- Post added 2011-07-27 at 10:48 AM ----------

    I attempted to grasp Blood Craze's worth on Ragnaros by using the number of sources of "unavoidable" damage on Ragnaros (AoE, melee swings, the DoT) from one of my logs. The total count was 281, which realistically should have procced Blood Craze ~28 times.

    Assuming that a full Blood Craze heals for 3.78% HP, with an HP pool of ~180k, each proc should heal for ~6.8k or for a total of ~190k if no procs are overwritten which would be roughly 4% of all healing I needed.

    There should be no encounter where Blood Craze is better than on Ragnaros. There should also be no encounter where it matter more than on Ragnaros. Question is, do I want the ~310 HPS BC would net, or the ~660 DPS DW provides? I'm going to consider it for HM Ragnaros.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Mest; 2011-07-27 at 08:48 AM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Iyona View Post
    There should be no encounter where Blood Craze is better than on Ragnaros. There should also be no encounter where it matter more than on Ragnaros.
    If I had to pick one, i think I would have look over balroc (specially if you're on inferno duty) BUT the special mechanisms of the encounter make it....special

    Quote Originally Posted by Iyona View Post
    Question is, do I want the ~310 HPS BC would net, or the ~660 DPS DW provides? I'm going to consider it for HM Ragnaros.
    Thoughts?
    As often I would say it depend on your team raid.
    Are the dps the best? Then you might want to go for the dps and the tps that it provides
    Are the dps struggling to meet the enrage? go fo the 660 dps of DW
    Are you healer confortable with healing you AND managing their mana pool?

    On a general basis, I'll go for DW but I've changed it on T11 for some fight so i may change it again in T12 if needed

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Sligboy View Post
    As often I would say it depend on your team raid.
    Agreed.


    Iyona, does this mean BC isn't as bad as it was made out to be? 4% increased healing still feels like 4% damage reduction.

    Afterall, we're defined as sacraficing 10k+ dps for the sake of 75% damage reduction (rough estimates I know). If we express that as dps per % damage reduction (or healing), we get:
    Code:
    BC costs 165 dps per % healing
    Being a tank costs 133 dps per % damage reduction
    which roughly feels like its a fair trade.


    Hopefully it isn't too much effort if your guild logs all its fights, but do you think you could compile a table of BC healing per boss? If a few people can do this we should get an average healing contribution of BC per boss. If it scores ~2% on other fights it probably won't be worth it unless you're really desperate for more heals, based on the concept of dps per defence.


    P.S. I think effective healing is the best measure of BC. Overheals shouldn't count.
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  5. #205
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    the problem with self healing is... well, look at a DK. they are mostly built around eating the damage first, then heal it back up. blood craze is the very same thing.

    for bloodcraze being able to count as a damage reduction, you as the tank have to eat the damage first. and most of blood craze is overheal anyways. if bloodcraze's 1k tick is overheal itself, because it ticks after the heal landed on you, or if it is overheal, because the heal from the healer, which comes afterwards is 1k less effective and 1k more overheal... well... idk. how many situations are there, were you actually are during 100% of the uptime of blood craze lower than 100%, so the heal actually counts?

    I think, this vastly reduces the overall damage reduction.

    and I think, as stated above, it's not a real damage reduction. and it really does not help much at the end of the day, if it does help at all.

    on the other side, Tank's DPS does really only matter on extrem top-of-the-notch-hardcore-guilds. everything else, well... that 150dps more or less neither make or break ANY encounter. But DW is more fun. so I take this.

  6. #206
    This is why the effective healing is the important quantity to measure. Overheals shouldn't count. If you're only measuring effective its much better.

    But you have to remember, BC procs when you take damage, so there should nearly always be something to heal. Also, if you're at maximum health you're not going to die, BC only matters when you're not at full health.

  7. #207
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth View Post
    Agreed.


    Iyona, does this mean BC isn't as bad as it was made out to be? 4% increased healing still feels like 4% damage reduction.

    Afterall, we're defined as sacraficing 10k+ dps for the sake of 75% damage reduction (rough estimates I know). If we express that as dps per % damage reduction (or healing), we get:
    Code:
    BC costs 165 dps per % healing
    Being a tank costs 133 dps per % damage reduction
    which roughly feels like its a fair trade.


    Hopefully it isn't too much effort if your guild logs all its fights, but do you think you could compile a table of BC healing per boss? If a few people can do this we should get an average healing contribution of BC per boss. If it scores ~2% on other fights it probably won't be worth it unless you're really desperate for more heals, based on the concept of dps per defence.
    Well. No. It was the same amount as 4% of all healing I recieved. If it was simply put in there it would be less than 4%. There is also a lot of overhealing going on, and this is also assuming no procs overlap. I'm considering speccing into it next week just to get the numbers. It's in no way as epic as 4% damage reduction.

    When seen practically, the effects of Blood Craze are just minuscle. Say you're at 90% hp and there's raid damage going on. You're likely to have a few HoTs on you and perhaps a Beacon. You're also healed by the AoE-heals. This amount of healing will likely be more than sufficient if you critically block and only decay slightly while on a regular block you'd drop like 10-15% hp after including healing. After a few cumulative blocks a healer will cast a Greater Heal to get you up to 90-100% levels.

    Blood Craze would increase the time before that Greater Heal must be cast. It's most likely not strong enough to allow for an entire additional cast, but if you're in a low health scenario the ticks could mean something. In a high health scenario, Blood Craze could render that Greater Heal a regular Heal instead, conserving mana.

    The primary issue I have when I heal something tough is when healing the group/raid is urgent but the tank health drops fast, meaning I got no time to cast group heals and must spam expensive heals to keep up. Tanks using CDs for these scenarios are worth gold, and Blood Craze would nudge things in that general direction.

    Perhaps it's worthwile, perhaps it's not. I'll try it out, but there really is no encounter T12 where BC is even half as good as it is on Ragnaros.

    edit: oh and, I've had problems uploading logs to WoL lately (Java errors :S) so idk if I can provide any numbers.

  8. #208
    The Lightbringer shadowkras's Avatar
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    There is also a lot of overhealing going on, and this is also assuming no procs overlap. I'm considering speccing into it next week just to get the numbers. It's in no way as epic as 4% damage reduction.
    They never overlap, it follows the same rules as other HoTs.
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  9. #209
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowkras View Post
    They never overlap, it follows the same rules as other HoTs.
    Isn't that only true if the new application of the HoT occurs between the last and second last ticks?

  10. #210
    The Lightbringer shadowkras's Avatar
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    Thats the case for HoTs that dont apply every second, which isnt blood craze. Even so, on those hots, the duration is extended so one more tick will occur, the "next tick" is never really affected anymore, it will just increase the duration of the hot.
    For 1s hots its similar, but the duration isnt really increased, the hot timer never stops, it just keeps increasing, while the hot duration seems to always be at max 5 seconds, but iv recieved a BC heal a second after it had already faded, happens quite often.
    People take stupidity to a whole new level when they sit in front of a computer.

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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth View Post

    Hopefully it isn't too much effort if your guild logs all its fights, but do you think you could compile a table of BC healing per boss? If a few people can do this we should get an average healing contribution of BC per boss. If it scores ~2% on other fights it probably won't be worth it unless you're really desperate for more heals, based on the concept of dps per defence.


    P.S. I think effective healing is the best measure of BC. Overheals shouldn't count.
    I'm willing to offer my logs for you to do your work Mammoth. I'm at work right now so can't sit down and add everything up, but I'll link my guild's WoL page. I tank every fight and I use Blood Craze. We are 7/7 so you should have plenty of data to pull from.

    http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/7133/

    Hope that helps. I'll try to get some time tonight or tomorrow to maybe compile some data for you if you haven't done so by then already. My armory link is in my signature for spec and gear reference. Pretty sure I'm logged out in my typical raid tanking gear. Baleroc is the only fight that I drastically change up that gear, adding more avoidance and reducing mastery since I'm on Decimation Blade duty for that fight.

    Looking at our recent Ragnaros kill, Blood Craze accounted for almost 3% of all healing I received and only had 15% overheal. It was much lower on Majordomo, only accounting for 1.7% of all healing and 37% overheal. Baleroc numbers are always gonna be terrible due to the healing buff that healers get, plus my numbers will be skewed due to my tanking Decimation Blades only.
    Last edited by twopac187; 2011-07-27 at 08:55 PM.

  12. #212
    This should be stickied. Great job putting up such good info btw.

  13. #213
    @twopac thanks for your logs. I've compiled a little list from your fights.

    Boss - eff heal - uptime - player
    Beth - 1.0% - 13.5% - Dagor
    Shannox - 1.3% - 23.7% - Dagor
    Lord - 0.4% - 2.9% - Dagor
    Alys - 4.0% - 38.5% - Dagor
    Bale - 0.4% - 3.2% - Dagor
    Stag - 1.2% - 25.5% - Dagor

    Looks like only Alys was providing substantial healing, but Shannox and Stag are providing rather competitive up times. I'm assuming they're heavy healing fights.

    Unfortunately I'm not currently raiding, so there's only so much I can read into this (for instance I haven't got a clue if you're doing adds or kiting, I really know nothing). But it's looking like BC is bad as we originally thought. For the DPS loss from talents we should be getting numbers ~4%, but we're only getting 1/4 of that on average.

    If a few other people want to post logs in a table like I have done here it could be useful. Unfortunately I don't have time to tabulate everyone's logs (hence the no time for raiding )
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  14. #214
    This is wonderful, props to you, Iyona.
    "Is it possible to live without comparison of any kind, never translating yourself in terms of comparison with another or with some idea or with some hero or with some example? Because when you are comparing, when you are measuring yourself with what should be or what has been, you are not seeing what is ..." by Jiddu K., Philosopher

  15. #215
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodraw View Post
    This is wonderful, props to you, Iyona.
    And to everybody else who's contributed. It's a community project, yaknow. :-)

  16. #216
    The Lightbringer shadowkras's Avatar
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    But it's looking like BC is bad as we originally thought.
    Its decent for heroics and fights with multiple adds that will stay alive for a long time. As we concluded before.

    So, only go for Blood Craze if you will get piercing howl.
    People take stupidity to a whole new level when they sit in front of a computer.

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  17. #217
    Pit Lord Dannyl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowkras View Post
    Its decent for heroics and fights with multiple adds that will stay alive for a long time. As we concluded before.

    So, only go for Blood Craze if you will get piercing howl.
    What shadow said. I'm a bit confused why this actually needed to be re-iterated. It was hashed out half a dozen times before.

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  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyl View Post
    What shadow said. I'm a bit confused why this actually needed to be re-iterated. It was hashed out half a dozen times before.
    I'm not looking to reiterate it as such, but rather to put numbers behind the statements. We state that BC is an awful talent all the time without any reference to its actual effectiveness. Maybe its the scientist in me, but I like to have numbers to back up our facts.

    Now I know that if we're struggling with keeping the tanks alive, there is a talent that can give 1% more healing with a 25% uptime, even if it costs us more DPS than it is worth.


    Anyway, Iyona opened up the testing of it. *flees*
    Last edited by Mammoth; 2011-07-28 at 11:44 AM.
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  19. #219
    Pit Lord Dannyl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth View Post
    I'm not looking to reiterate it as such, but rather to put numbers behind the statements. We state that BC is an awful talent all the time without any reference to its actual effectiveness. Maybe its the scientist in me, but I like to have numbers to back up our facts.
    There were plenty of numbers behind it, IIRC. I remember posting logs and analyzing them myself on multiple threads and it was always the same conclusion; it is a really bad talent and the only time it heals anything worth while is when you have a lot of adds on you, such as on Maloriak or Nefarian. It also wasn't just on mmo-c where this occured. I remember reading plenty of chat about it on TS and they concluded the very same thing we did. Anyway, guess we can just add this one on top of the pile.

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  20. #220
    MAN. Mest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoth View Post
    Anyway, Iyona opened up the testing of it. *flees*
    Lol, I was just interested in seeing how it behaved on Ragnaros! It seems slightly better than expected but still not convincingly good. I'm just not sure what to make of it; I like maximizing my survivability and BC does increase rHPS by a higher percentage than what DW increases rDPS, practical side-effects from something may also be surprising.

    Perhaps that tiny healing nudge convinces my healers I don't need that additional HoT freeing up a GCD? It's on an encounter like Ragnaros where something like this would really matter.

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