Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
  1. #41
    The Lightbringer Eightace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    3,727
    Quote Originally Posted by Noomz View Post
    There are no demonstrations in any of the cities marked in my country, nothing. And do you honestly believe anyone in China cares? There's marks in China. There's one in the middle of nowhere in Russia too.
    This "map" has nothing to do with reality.
    2 of the demonstrations in london are labelled Tests

  2. #42
    Warchief
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Canada, that other, other free place (you know, the one that's more free then you pretend to be)
    Posts
    2,029
    I think it can be said, Spain is a passionate place. It's pretty clear to see that here.
    We have similar problems, but we are so layed back that we just don't go to that length here.

    Say what you want, but if North America (yes Canadians and Americans), had the drive and conviction to stand up in mass, maybe we could effect change, but honestly, it's a real minority who do. In a word, apathy.
    It's interesting how much of the population are 'reactionists', compared to activists.
    If you doubt the validity of that, ask yourself, did I care before it affected me personally?
    I will say this, at least they have the balls to try.
    It really beats the pants off those who do nothing and bitch about it.

    I don't know if it could ever do anything but trade one bunch of greedy tools for another...Southpark was correct, any time you vote, it's a choice between a shit sandwich and a giant douche.
    It makes me laugh, because when you get down to it, no matter what country, where in the world, i am certain most people just want whomever is elected/in power to just not fuck it up too bad.

    'Don't take us to ruin, don't bring about war, let us live, work, feed and care for our families and have some simple joy in life.'

    As much as I have learned through communicating with others, that is what I think is on everyone's wish list.
    I think that's a pretty universal thing, for the most part.
    Sad it almost never happens huh?
    Last edited by Bigbamboozal; 2011-05-20 at 06:50 PM.

  3. #43
    Elemental Lord Noomz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    In my head, where crazy happens.
    Posts
    8,621
    Quote Originally Posted by Eightace View Post
    2 of the demonstrations in london are labelled Tests
    Two tests are supporting them? What a revolution

    But best of luck to the youth of Spain, let's hope you turn your country around before it gets worse, the poor get poorer and the rich get richer.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by myrkyr View Post
    Thats oversimplifying politics, and its definitely oversimplifying political parties.
    Party x supports a and b. Party y supports q and r. Q and A, are mutually exclusive. R and B are mutually exclusive. Who do I vote for if I support Q and B?
    What you quoted is an error of logic well beyond politics. Deliberately limiting alternatives to a proposed course of action is a great way of stifling innovation and alienating people. Lots of us support things outside the bounds of the existing two parties in whole or part.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Honestly, I thought you were going to discuss the one before ww2 (I think?)
    You know, the one that finally turned Picasso, (who was previously described as the least political person ever by his best friend), political, after losing his mistress and son. I think that's when he painted gerniga (spelling?)

    Anyhow, thanks for the heads up, checking now.

    Nothing up on msn news ect..links??
    Guernica is a painting done by Picasso in response to a bombing during the Spanish Civil War.

    I'm not entirely sure how politics in Spain work, but I think that other political parties, as long as they receive more than a certain number of votes, can have representation according to the percentage of votes they receive. I had no idea that people could indirectly vote for the 2 'main' political parties by casting a vote for a different party altogether. That seems really shady.

    As a whole, I say that Spain has a fairly active political citizenry. I contribute this to their political history within the past 100 years. Their country has gone through a civil war about 70 years ago, and right after that Franco's dictatorship lasted until the 1970s.

    Amigos, buena suerte en realizar las esfuerzas politicas. Viva España!

  6. #46
    I've read that with the Spanish voting system, votes made in densely populated areas are worth less than votes in rural areas, due to number of people in each area or whatever.

    Seems a bit of a wierd system to me. In the UK you have roughly 1 seat per X people, cities often have multiple constituencies or seats and the rural constituencies are bigger due to lower population density. This means that everybody has a roughly equal vote. Is Spain's constituencies done simply by land size or something?

    I'm not surprised the youth are protesting with 40% youth unemployment. The current generation of young people really have been thrown to the dogs in this recession. I feel even more sorry for the next generation who will grow up with sub-par education and an even worse lack of opportunity than the current generation. Makes you wonder if the middle class will even exist in 50 years time if this continues.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by john67 View Post
    Makes you wonder if the middle class will even exist in 50 years time if this continues.
    I thought that was the gameplan anyways.

  8. #48
    The Lightbringer Eightace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    3,727
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    I thought that was the gameplan anyways.
    There will always be a middle class, we will always need scientists, doctors and lawyers. Although i do see the gap becoming much larger.

  9. #49
    Field Marshal hadry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    95
    I was gone outside + sleep, and couldnt answer hehe. I have seem vids/pics of the outside demonstrations. They r many? God no, they r the spanish comunity in that cities going to the spanish embassys to show their support. But everything matter .
    And there way more than 8000 persons on it. Way way way more. Just in Madrid yesterday at midnight (when they was going to be trow away of the square as they was banned for doing it) was 25000-30000 according to the TV program i saw when i came home.
    http://www.elpais.com/videos/espana/...epunac_1/Ves/#
    Its how the day started for them, you need to take into account that today is day of reflection here for the pool this sunday, but they keep there.
    I was yesterday at the main square here in Leon yesterday, with them. We took the whole square. But there was not only young ppl, there was familys (Sol, in Madrid, have a nursery so familys can stay here all the day), elderly, ppl with job, ppl w/o job...
    Its hard to understand if you dont know how is Spain atm. Austerity is not only the problem. With a pop earning (if lucky!) 1000€ x month and after telling them "hey, you need to go to retirement later, ye theres no work, but still!", you can see politicals earning 7000-8000€ x month + retirement after 7 years. There was also a lot of corruption with the housing bubble few years before, and most of them will go free as the charges prescribed. The society is broken: in one side, the state worker: work for the whole life, not a great earning (and cutting it for second time next month, for what i hear), and in the other side ppl with "garbage contract", earning a shit also, with 0 job security. Temporality few years ago was around 1/3 contracts, nowdays i cant imagine how much ti can be, but you can bet that way more. Politicals atm r like characters of the yellow press. They make 0 sugestions and only work around saying how bad the others r. Its discouraging and sad to see them "debate" without contributing anything.
    Anyway, yesterday ppl in the square gave me a manifest, i wil ltranslate it the best i can, might help to take an idea about. Not like im with all the points, but the more info you get... anyway, here i go:

    Proposals:

    -1. ELIMINATION OF THE PRIVILEGES OF THE POLITICAL CLASS:
    Strict control of absenteeism in their respective elected positions.
    Specific penalties for dereliction of duties.
    Removal of privileges in paying taxes, the years of contribution and the amount of pensions.
    Equalization of wages of the average wage elected Spanish + dietary needs necessary for the exercise of their functions.
    Elimination of charge associated immunity. Applicability of the crimes of corruption.
    Mandatory disclosure of assets of all public offices.
    Reduction of the amount of charges that may be free appointed.
    2. AGAINST UNEMPLOYMENT:
    Encouraging job sharing and reduced working hours labor conciliation to end the structural unemployment (ie, until unemployment falls below 5%).
    Retirement at 65 and not increase in retirement age to eliminate youth unemployment.
    Subsidies for companies with less than 10% of temporary contracts.
    Job security: the impossibility of collective dismissals for objective reasons in large companies while there are benefits to big business controls to ensure that temporary workers are not covered with jobs that could be fixed.
    Restoration of the grant of 426 € for all long-term unemployed.

    3. RIGHT TO HOUSING:
    Expropriation by the state of housing stock built in that have not been sold for placement on the market for rent protected.
    Rent subsidies for young people and all those poor people.
    To allow payment in kind to cancel housing mortgages.

    4. QUALITY PUBLIC SERVICES:
    Deleting unnecessary costs on government and establishment of independent monitoring of budgets and expenditures.
    Of health personnel to eliminate waiting lists.
    Recruitment of teachers to ensure the ratio of students per classroom, groups of unfolding and support groups.
    Reducing the cost of tuition at any university education, matching the price of the grade graduate.
    Public funding of research to ensure its independence.
    Cheap public transport, quality and environmentally sustainable restoration of trains are being replaced by the AVE with the original prices, cheaper bus passes, restricting private car traffic in city centers, construction of bicycle lanes.
    Local social resources: effective implementation of the Law Unit, municipal local carers networks, local mediation services and mentoring.

    5. CONTROL OF BANKS:
    Prohibition of any kind of bailout or capital injection to banks: those companies in difficulty should fail or be nationalized to form a public bank under social control.
    Tax increases to the bench in direct proportion to social spending caused by the crisis caused by mismanagement.
    Return to public coffers by banks all provided public capital.
    Ban on investment of Spanish banks in tax havens.
    Regulation of sanctions on speculation and banking malpractice.

    6. TAXATION:
    Increase the tax rate on large fortunes and banks.
    Elimination of the SICAV.
    Come back of the Tax refund Heritage.
    Real and effective control of tax evasion and capital flight to tax havens.
    International promotion of the adoption of a tax on international transactions (Tobin tax).

    7. Liberties and Participatory Democracy:
    Not control the Internet. Sinde Abolition Act.
    Protection of freedom of information and investigative journalism.
    Referendums mandatory and binding on the wide-ranging issues that change the lives of citizens.
    Mandatory referendums for any introduction of measures taken by the European Union.
    Amendment of Electoral Act to ensure a truly representative system that does not discriminate and proportional to any political or social will, where the white vote and vote no also have representation in the legislature.
    Independence of the judiciary, reform of the Prosecution Office to ensure their independence, the appointment of members of the Constitutional Court and the Supreme Judicial Council by the Executive.
    Establishment of effective mechanisms to ensure internal democracy in political parties.

    8. REDUCING MILITARY SPENDING
    The translation may not be very good, i used a translator to help me as its a bit complicated for me, but you can take the picture.
    Here is a direct streaming of the Madrid Plaza del Sol:
    http://www.soltv.tv/soltv2/index.html
    Around 8 pm they make the concentrations, i suppose they will get a full today too.

    ---------- Post added 2011-05-21 at 09:26 AM ----------

    About our electoral system:
    We use the D'Hont system + a circumscription system. To every circumscription the Law assign X seats + another Y seats variables depending on pop. The D'Hont system heavy penalizes minority partys, meaning the 2 big have , not only the medias and the power, but the ways to keep it as it is (following the campaing in the TV, i barely saw any other party xcept the 2 big ones. Watching ANY tv, you will think theres no more than they 2).

    Now i want to give my personal opinion about the proposals of DRY:
    Some of them r really necesary. I cant discuss at all group 1 of proposals. We r tired of them stealing us. group 2 is a bit a dream and not funcional. We need to put the retirement age in higher age, not like it will work very well with our unemployement problem, but its necesary. The rest r more or less ok. group 3 is crazy. Specially the expropiation. Atm we cant buy a house in any way (you wont get a credit, only if you r state worker atm), but theres better ways to do that. Im all for a housing mortgages = i give my house back to the bank.
    4, 5, 6,7 and 8 r ok proposals.
    Last edited by hadry; 2011-05-21 at 09:28 AM.

  10. #50
    Field Marshal Mr P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam, Netherlands
    Posts
    93
    I can understand the frustration of the Spanish people. I know very little about Spanish politics but it appears your country has been mismanaged for a long time. Same goes for Greece and to an extent Italy.

    However, a fair few of the 'demands' above are if nothing else unrealistic. Especially looking at the economic climate of the PIIGS countries. Major cuts are, unfortunately, needed and it will be painful but please remember that everyone else in Europe will suffer for your mismanaged markets.

    The EURO-zone has and, will probably pay out more, paid a metric fuckton of money to the countries currently deeply in debt. And I for one do not wish to ruin our own economy just because of horribly flawed internal economics in certain countries (This mostly applies to Greece).

    I will probably be somewhat hated for this but I am afraid most of Southern Europe will have to man up and takes the cuts. Hopefully you will be able to default on some of the debt and then reorganize the infrastructure. we will all, probably, be better off as a result.

    Best of luck down there!
    Andú The Majty Paladan | Twitter | Blog
    Chrono @ Quakenet/SwiftIRC

  11. #51
    Field Marshal hadry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr P View Post
    I can understand the frustration of the Spanish people. I know very little about Spanish politics but it appears your country has been mismanaged for a long time. Same goes for Greece and to an extent Italy.

    However, a fair few of the 'demands' above are if nothing else unrealistic. Especially looking at the economic climate of the PIIGS countries. Major cuts are, unfortunately, needed and it will be painful but please remember that everyone else in Europe will suffer for your mismanaged markets.

    The EURO-zone has and, will probably pay out more, paid a metric fuckton of money to the countries currently deeply in debt. And I for one do not wish to ruin our own economy just because of horribly flawed internal economics in certain countries (This mostly applies to Greece).

    I will probably be somewhat hated for this but I am afraid most of Southern Europe will have to man up and takes the cuts. Hopefully you will be able to default on some of the debt and then reorganize the infrastructure. we will all, probably, be better off as a result.

    Best of luck down there!
    I agree with that eh! We really need to become more productives and cut our deficits. But you cant cut on health, education and public services by a lot and increase the amount in our budgets that go to the political partys by a 9% (I think it was in last ones). Politicals here r starting to be a "caste" over the rest, and they really need a lesson in humility.

  12. #52
    "Prohibition of any kind of bailout or capital injection to banks: those companies in difficulty should fail or be nationalized to form a public bank under social control." This one is somewhat worrisome as well. My own classical liberal views aside, why would you want to give public control over banks? Public meaning government here. The same government people are protesting are a bunch of corrupt crooks who spit on the poor.
    Individuals are not simple. They cannot be defined for easy reference in the manner of:The elves are a lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •